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Dieuwer
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Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:56 pm

So I got a flu shot and guess what. I 'm not sick from the flu but from a cold (different virus)!
DUH... :(   :fever:

So why is there no vaccine against the common cold virus?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:04 pm

Because there are several dozen different cold viruses from what my doctor says. Pretty hard to vaccinate against 30 viruses.

The flu shot is only a good guess as to the prevalent flu virus for the year.
GF
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:17 pm

I've had a couple nasty cold's this winter. And possibly a type of norovirus (hard to say, but symptoms were similar). This despite having gotten the flu shot. Is what it is. I blame my young kids who visit the proverbial brew house of sickness daily.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:59 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I've had a couple nasty cold's this winter. And possibly a type of norovirus (hard to say, but symptoms were similar). This despite having gotten the flu shot. Is what it is. I blame my young kids who visit the proverbial brew house of sickness daily.
School or daycare?
 
StarAC17
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:59 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
So I got a flu shot and guess what. I 'm not sick from the flu but from a cold (different virus)!
DUH... :(   :fever:

So why is there no vaccine against the common cold virus?


The flu shot takes the most common 3 or so strains of influenza usually from what strains caused the previous hemisphere's cold and flu season. Sometime they are wrong and sometime they are right and this year they got it bang on.

There are far more strains than the common cold (medically known as the Rhinovirus) and the cold doesn't kill anybody where the flu will kill people with pre-exisiting conditions and those with higher health risks. There is really no point in one.
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emperortk
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:32 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Because there are several dozen different cold viruses from what my doctor says. Pretty hard to vaccinate against 30 viruses.

The flu shot is only a good guess as to the prevalent flu virus for the year.
GF


Your doctor is off by an order of magnitude. Might be time for a new one.

https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/qa/w ... ld-vaccine
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:40 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I've had a couple nasty cold's this winter. And possibly a type of norovirus (hard to say, but symptoms were similar). This despite having gotten the flu shot. Is what it is. I blame my young kids who visit the proverbial brew house of sickness daily.
School or daycare?


Daycare for now. Hopefully by time they are school age they will have the immunity of a god.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:48 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I've had a couple nasty cold's this winter. And possibly a type of norovirus (hard to say, but symptoms were similar). This despite having gotten the flu shot. Is what it is. I blame my young kids who visit the proverbial brew house of sickness daily.
School or daycare?


Daycare for now. Hopefully by time they are school age they will have the immunity of a god.


Nope.
They just bring home new nasty ones for you to get :)

Actually mine have been pretty good this year.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:52 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I've had a couple nasty cold's this winter. And possibly a type of norovirus (hard to say, but symptoms were similar). This despite having gotten the flu shot. Is what it is. I blame my young kids who visit the proverbial brew house of sickness daily.
School or daycare?


Daycare for now. Hopefully by time they are school age they will have the immunity of a god.
Took my son until about second grade before he stopped getting sick a lot. Of course, he still went to daycare after school.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:08 pm

Excuse me as I go find a hole under a rock to shelter myself for the next 6 to 10 years.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:27 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
So why is there no vaccine against the common cold virus?

1. Too many variants of the virus.
2. Each variant mutates too fast to make an effective vaccine. If you think the flu vaccine is bad, the cold vaccine would probably be outdated within a day.
3. More of a nuisance than a debilitating or deadly disease (in the developed world) so there's no pressing need to find a cure.
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Okie
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:45 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Daycare for now. Hopefully by time they are school age they will have the immunity of a god.

It is a trick. You are correct. Possibly by design.
Preschool and Daycare are a giant petri dish which after exposure is multiplied yet again sitting for an hour or more in the Doctor's waiting room to gather up more so you will be back again in about 2 weeks.

Start of school, then sick and doctor visits for a few weeks, then thing quiet down until Thanksgiving, then start all over, then Christmas, then Easter, then Spring break. Always adding new "Bugs" to the mix from exposure to multiple new environments of other people.

So yes on the 2nd grade is about right before things settled in for my family.

Okie




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Dieuwer
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:22 pm

On a separate note, would you suggest to definitely get a deviated septum "repaired"? Anyone got it done?
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:07 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
On a separate note, would you suggest to definitely get a deviated septum "repaired"? Anyone got it done?


Repairing a deviated septum can bring significant sinus relief and relieve you of many cold symptoms.

If you know you have a deviated septum, definitely get it fixed.

Edit, if you know you have one, because it's been pointed out by a doctor I should say. Especially if it's having an obvious affect on your breathing.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:06 am

Dieuwer wrote:
So I got a flu shot and guess what. I 'm not sick from the flu but from a cold (different virus)!
DUH... :(   :fever:

So why is there no vaccine against the common cold virus?


An excellent question.

1) There is an array of respiratory viruses that can cause the syndrome known as the "common cold" (acute upper respiratory infection, or URI). These include the rhinovirus (cause of ~60% of cases), which is a picornavirus reclassified under the genus enteroviridae in 2007. Other common viruses are the parainfluenza virus (which is not the same as influenza), adenovirus, coronavirus, and more recently a new type of respiratory enterovirus seems to be circulating during autumn in North America. All in all, there are over 200 individual subtypes of virii that cause the common cold. Even closely-related serotypes do not provide cross-protection with their immune responses. With that many different viruses, it would be difficult to come up with a single vaccine that offers immunity to all of them. Moreover, these viruses are mostly RNA viruses and thus are prone to rapid mutation.

2) The common cold is by and large a self-limited and minor illness that does not cause a large amount of loss of business or school attendance, so limited research resources are diverted at more serious diseases. That said, there is ongoing research into this problem.

3) Many of the virii that cause the common cold do not actually enter the body and thus are somewhat resistance to classical immune mechanisms. Any such immunization would have to be given as a live attenuated virus administered intranasally (in the nose), rather than as an injection. This would make the immunization unavailable to immunocompromised patients, who are the group at greatest risk for serious complications from URI.
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Airstud
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:30 am

DocLightning wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
So I got a flu shot and guess what. I 'm not sick from the flu but from a cold (different virus)!
DUH... :(   :fever:

So why is there no vaccine against the common cold virus?


An excellent question.

1) There is an array of respiratory viruses that can cause the syndrome known as the "common cold" (acute upper respiratory infection, or URI). These include the rhinovirus (cause of ~60% of cases), which is a picornavirus reclassified under the genus enteroviridae in 2007. Other common viruses are the parainfluenza virus (which is not the same as influenza), adenovirus, coronavirus, and more recently a new type of respiratory enterovirus seems to be circulating during autumn in North America. All in all, there are over 200 individual subtypes of virii that cause the common cold. Even closely-related serotypes do not provide cross-protection with their immune responses. With that many different viruses, it would be difficult to come up with a single vaccine that offers immunity to all of them. Moreover, these viruses are mostly RNA viruses and thus are prone to rapid mutation.

2) The common cold is by and large a self-limited and minor illness that does not cause a large amount of loss of business or school attendance, so limited research resources are diverted at more serious diseases. That said, there is ongoing research into this problem.

3) Many of the virii that cause the common cold do not actually enter the body and thus are somewhat resistance to classical immune mechanisms. Any such immunization would have to be given as a live attenuated virus administered intranasally (in the nose), rather than as an injection. This would make the immunization unavailable to immunocompromised patients, who are the group at greatest risk for serious complications from URI.


Which, is what I said basically.
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TSS
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:36 am

trpmb6 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
On a separate note, would you suggest to definitely get a deviated septum "repaired"? Anyone got it done?


Repairing a deviated septum can bring significant sinus relief and relieve you of many cold symptoms.

If you know you have a deviated septum, definitely get it fixed.

Edit, if you know you have one, because it's been pointed out by a doctor I should say. Especially if it's having an obvious affect on your breathing.


Seconded. A friend's partner got his deviated septum fixed and it made for a dramatic improvement in his breathing as well as a cessation of his whistle-y snoring. Since his nose was deviated to one side on the outside (seriously, it was worse than Meryl Streep's) as well as his septum on the inside, he got a nose job at the same time. I seem to remember that since the nose job was considered part of the deviated septum correction it was covered entirely by insurance, but that's been 25-30 years ago and I might be wrong on the details.
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Cadet985
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:53 am

I’m probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes.

My grandfather worked on the Manhattan Project. One day, he reported for duty feeling really sick. His superior told him to report to the physician. So he goes. Cold, fever, stomachache, cough...the whole nine yards. He was given one pill. Never found out what the pill was or what was in it, but his symptoms were gone within hours.

He went to his grave convinced that there IS a cure for the cold, and the government is in cahoots with big pharma to keep it secret.

My grandfather was known to exaggerate sometimes, but this is one story that no matter how many times he told it, it NEVER changed.

Feel free to mock me, but I do believe there are more medical treatments that exist for any number of conditions than we know about.

BTW, Dieuwer, I get the flu shot every year and within a few days I generally have a cold or sore throat. I’m 99.999% sure it’s just coincidence.

Marc
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:56 am

Cadet985 wrote:
I’m probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes.

My grandfather worked on the Manhattan Project. One day, he reported for duty feeling really sick. His superior told him to report to the physician. So he goes. Cold, fever, stomachache, cough...the whole nine yards. He was given one pill. Never found out what the pill was or what was in it, but his symptoms were gone within hours.

He went to his grave convinced that there IS a cure for the cold, and the government is in cahoots with big pharma to keep it secret.


Why would this conspiracy work? Do you know how fantastically wealthy the first company to market a cure to the common cold would be?

The fact is that in order to develop such a medicine, there would have to be a drug that somehow stops *all* the cold viruses from replicating. It would need to be spectacularly safe (because colds are not normally dangerous) and it would need to be well absorbed from the GI tract. It would cost billions in investment to a pharmaceutical company and it would shorten the duration of the illness by...a day?

The trouble with your grandfather's story is that even if I had a magic wand that could eradicate the virus instantly, it would still be days for the symptoms to subside as the residual inflammation and tissue damage need to be cleaned up and then all the mucus needs to be expelled.
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johnboy
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:21 am

trpmb6 wrote:

Daycare for now. Hopefully by time they are school age they will have the immunity of a god.


THIS.
I don’t know why moms won’t let their kids play in the dirt and generally get exposed to stuff that can only strengthen immune systems.
 
Cadet985
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:34 am

DocLightning wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:
I’m probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes.

My grandfather worked on the Manhattan Project. One day, he reported for duty feeling really sick. His superior told him to report to the physician. So he goes. Cold, fever, stomachache, cough...the whole nine yards. He was given one pill. Never found out what the pill was or what was in it, but his symptoms were gone within hours.

He went to his grave convinced that there IS a cure for the cold, and the government is in cahoots with big pharma to keep it secret.


Why would this conspiracy work? Do you know how fantastically wealthy the first company to market a cure to the common cold would be?

The fact is that in order to develop such a medicine, there would have to be a drug that somehow stops *all* the cold viruses from replicating. It would need to be spectacularly safe (because colds are not normally dangerous) and it would need to be well absorbed from the GI tract. It would cost billions in investment to a pharmaceutical company and it would shorten the duration of the illness by...a day?

The trouble with your grandfather's story is that even if I had a magic wand that could eradicate the virus instantly, it would still be days for the symptoms to subside as the residual inflammation and tissue damage need to be cleaned up and then all the mucus needs to be expelled.


Doc, let me start off by saying I have a lot of respect for you. I didn’t totatally believe every story my grandfather told, but this one, not one detail ever changed.

I’m glad you mentioned pharmaceutical companies. They’d lose an untold amount of money. They would have a much harder time influencing politics. A cure for the common cold would cause far fewer doctor visits. I can’t argue any of the science you posted. You’re far more educated than I’ll ever be; I have a pain, I have to google it.

All I have to go on is what my grandfather told his friends and family, and he was not one to buy into conspiracy theories. Heck, when I chose UFO’s as a choice of term papers in high school (yes, it was actually an option and I got an A on it), he thought I should be committed.

I do think that the government knows more than they let on about a lot of things, medicine included.

Have a pleasant evening.

Marc
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:57 pm

Cadet985 wrote:
I’m glad you mentioned pharmaceutical companies. They’d lose an untold amount of money. They would have a much harder time influencing politics. A cure for the common cold would cause far fewer doctor visits. I can’t argue any of the science you posted. You’re far more educated than I’ll ever be; I have a pain, I have to google it.


1) It would not decrease doctor visits because people would go to the doctor to get the prescription (you think they woulld make this OTC?)
2) Pharmaceutical companies don't make money off of people going to the doctor. They make money off of selling pharmaceuticals.
3) I promise you the government is not hiding a cure for the common cold from the masses. I have three degrees in Biology/Medicine and I have a very good handle on what humanity does and doesn't know.
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Jouhou
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:29 am

DocLightning wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:
I’m probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes.

My grandfather worked on the Manhattan Project. One day, he reported for duty feeling really sick. His superior told him to report to the physician. So he goes. Cold, fever, stomachache, cough...the whole nine yards. He was given one pill. Never found out what the pill was or what was in it, but his symptoms were gone within hours.

He went to his grave convinced that there IS a cure for the cold, and the government is in cahoots with big pharma to keep it secret.


Why would this conspiracy work? Do you know how fantastically wealthy the first company to market a cure to the common cold would be?

The fact is that in order to develop such a medicine, there would have to be a drug that somehow stops *all* the cold viruses from replicating. It would need to be spectacularly safe (because colds are not normally dangerous) and it would need to be well absorbed from the GI tract. It would cost billions in investment to a pharmaceutical company and it would shorten the duration of the illness by...a day?

The trouble with your grandfather's story is that even if I had a magic wand that could eradicate the virus instantly, it would still be days for the symptoms to subside as the residual inflammation and tissue damage need to be cleaned up and then all the mucus needs to be expelled.



It could have been an antiviral, and it could have been an identifiable "cold" virus such as adenovirus that has been enough of a nuisance to the military where they administer a vaccine for it that the civilian population does not have access to.

On that note, there is a vaccine for that particular "cold" virus the regular population does not have access to. Would not be a cure for the common cold though.
 
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Classa64
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:11 pm

Cadet985 wrote:
He was given one pill. Never found out what the pill was or what was in it, but his symptoms were gone within hours.



Placebo effect ?

Not discounting anything you say, was just the first thing that came to mind.
He must have had some great experiences working on that project.
C.
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casinterest
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:50 pm

bad news everyone.

That flu shot some of us got is less than 50% effective this year .

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/14/health/f ... index.html

Good news

The flu is less severe this year than last year by and far.
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aviationaware
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:12 am

I got a flu shot once. It is an overrated experience. If you are young and healthy you don't need one, anyone telling you differently is a very panicky individual.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:33 am

casinterest wrote:
bad news everyone.

That flu shot some of us got is less than 50% effective this year .

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/14/health/f ... index.html


I think those numbers need to be looked with some nuance. If you're under 50, it's still quite effective at 55-60%. The high-dose trivalent immunization is working at about 40% in older adults, and that wasn't pooled in the recent CDC data. But more important than preventing infection, the shot also prevents severe disease.

Last year, with its lousy immunization, 90% of kids who died of influenza were unvaccinated.

My experience this year is that my patients who got their flu shots and then eventually get the flu are sick for three or four days. Patients who didn't get it are sick for two weeks.

aviationaware wrote:
I got a flu shot once. It is an overrated experience. If you are young and healthy you don't need one, anyone telling you differently is a very panicky individual.


...or a Board-Certified Pediatrician with two degrees in Molecular Biology who was the TA for the Molecular Virology course at Stanford. :geek:
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aviationaware
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:44 am

DocLightning wrote:

aviationaware wrote:
I got a flu shot once. It is an overrated experience. If you are young and healthy you don't need one, anyone telling you differently is a very panicky individual.


...or a Board-Certified Pediatrician with two degrees in Molecular Biology who was the TA for the Molecular Virology course at Stanford. :geek:


Well by young I didn't mean child. Should have been more specific. Let's say anyone in the 15-49 group without serious immune deficits doesn't need one.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:53 am

aviationaware wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

aviationaware wrote:
I got a flu shot once. It is an overrated experience. If you are young and healthy you don't need one, anyone telling you differently is a very panicky individual.


...or a Board-Certified Pediatrician with two degrees in Molecular Biology who was the TA for the Molecular Virology course at Stanford. :geek:


Well by young I didn't mean child. Should have been more specific. Let's say anyone in the 15-49 group without serious immune deficits doesn't need one.


I disagree. I recommend them for anyone 6mo+.

This year's virus is an H1N1 influenza A. It tends to attack young healthy people worse than those with weaker immune systems because it is the immune response that actually causes the symptoms.
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Jouhou
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:57 am

DocLightning wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
DocLightning wrote:



...or a Board-Certified Pediatrician with two degrees in Molecular Biology who was the TA for the Molecular Virology course at Stanford. :geek:


Well by young I didn't mean child. Should have been more specific. Let's say anyone in the 15-49 group without serious immune deficits doesn't need one.


I disagree. I recommend them for anyone 6mo+.

This year's virus is an H1N1 influenza A. It tends to attack young healthy people worse than those with weaker immune systems because it is the immune response that actually causes the symptoms.


Also should mention the vaccine tends to provide far more protection against H1N1 viruses. H1N1 years tend to see ~ 60% effectiveness. H3N2 years are when you see the lower numbers around 30%.

Also even if you are oh so confident about not becoming seriously ill from the flu, at the very least you can see the vaccine as saving you a few sick days from work. Also not being a breeding ground and reservoir of the virus to spread around to people more vulnerable is a plus.

H3N2 is dominating in the US southeast, likely dragging down the vaccine effectiveness estimate for the year. Also Nebraska is seeing mostly H3N2. Everywhere else it's H1N1 closely matching the vaccine strain.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:09 pm

DocLightning wrote:
casinterest wrote:
bad news everyone.

That flu shot some of us got is less than 50% effective this year .

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/14/health/f ... index.html


I think those numbers need to be looked with some nuance. If you're under 50, it's still quite effective at 55-60%. The high-dose trivalent immunization is working at about 40% in older adults, and that wasn't pooled in the recent CDC data. But more important than preventing infection, the shot also prevents severe disease.

Last year, with its lousy immunization, 90% of kids who died of influenza were unvaccinated.

My experience this year is that my patients who got their flu shots and then eventually get the flu are sick for three or four days. Patients who didn't get it are sick for two weeks.

aviationaware wrote:
I got a flu shot once. It is an overrated experience. If you are young and healthy you don't need one, anyone telling you differently is a very panicky individual.


...or a Board-Certified Pediatrician with two degrees in Molecular Biology who was the TA for the Molecular Virology course at Stanford. :geek:



They are definitely Nuanced. To tell the truth , so far so good for me. I can say that for now. The True test comes in the next few weeks as the flu is currently bombarding throughout the kids' school
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trpmb6
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:50 pm

DocLightning wrote:
I recommend them for anyone 6mo+.



Starting at 6months my children got theirs. Of course that young they get them in two doses a month apart. It's especially important for my youngest son who seems to have inherited my sinus issues which progresses towards chest congestion. Fortunately he (his older brother too) has tubes to help combat some of the sinus problems, and avoid ear infections which only makes things worse.

Honestly, as far as I'm concerned every child of a family that attends a daycare and flies often should just get tubes - makes flights so much easier when they don't have to pop their ears. Might as well get the adenoids out while they're in there too.
 
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cranberrysaus
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:22 pm

aviationaware wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

aviationaware wrote:
I got a flu shot once. It is an overrated experience. If you are young and healthy you don't need one, anyone telling you differently is a very panicky individual.


...or a Board-Certified Pediatrician with two degrees in Molecular Biology who was the TA for the Molecular Virology course at Stanford. :geek:


Well by young I didn't mean child. Should have been more specific. Let's say anyone in the 15-49 group without serious immune deficits doesn't need one.


The point isn't just to protect yourself though, but to also minimize it being spread to people that are more vulnerable.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:58 pm

Jouhou wrote:
H3N2 is dominating in the US southeast, likely dragging down the vaccine effectiveness estimate for the year. Also Nebraska is seeing mostly H3N2. Everywhere else it's H1N1 closely matching the vaccine strain.


I had not heard this. H3N2 is accounting for 20-30% of cases nationally. I wasn't aware that there was a geographic concentration. Where did you get this info? I'm always looking for ways to follow the season.
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Jouhou
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:46 am

DocLightning wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
H3N2 is dominating in the US southeast, likely dragging down the vaccine effectiveness estimate for the year. Also Nebraska is seeing mostly H3N2. Everywhere else it's H1N1 closely matching the vaccine strain.


I had not heard this. H3N2 is accounting for 20-30% of cases nationally. I wasn't aware that there was a geographic concentration. Where did you get this info? I'm always looking for ways to follow the season.


https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm Just below the "synopsis" of the CDCs weekly report there's a table that shows a breakdown by region of what's dominating.

Also being a New England resident I read the Massachusetts weekly surveillance report- the quality of data varies a great deal by state but the Massachusetts data is impressive in how they test any samples that test negative for influenza for the various viruses that make up the rest of common viral infections that can be "flu-like".
 
Bostrom
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:26 am

DocLightning wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:
I’m glad you mentioned pharmaceutical companies. They’d lose an untold amount of money. They would have a much harder time influencing politics. A cure for the common cold would cause far fewer doctor visits. I can’t argue any of the science you posted. You’re far more educated than I’ll ever be; I have a pain, I have to google it.


1) It would not decrease doctor visits because people would go to the doctor to get the prescription (you think they woulld make this OTC?)
2) Pharmaceutical companies don't make money off of people going to the doctor. They make money off of selling pharmaceuticals.
3) I promise you the government is not hiding a cure for the common cold from the masses. I have three degrees in Biology/Medicine and I have a very good handle on what humanity does and doesn't know.


I have not degree in medicine and my only experience is from a few courses in biology and chemistry I took at university in addition to my main field of study (earth science). But I have a bit of insight in the pharmaceutical industry, and I don't believe for one second that a company that had a cure for the common cold would not spend hundreds of millions marketing it all over the western world.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:32 am

After actually reading through this week's cdc report,
A.) They made a typo "subclade 3C.2a1 (n=109) or clade 3C.3a (n=138)" I'm pretty sure clade 3C.3a should be 109, 3C.2a1 should be 138. This can be seen in the visualization below. I'd be pretty damn worried if it is as written...

B.) Even with the numbers corrected, 3C.3a has surged out of nowhere. The H3N2 component of the vaccine is 3C.2a1. This is a new variant that the vaccine gives poor protection against that is rapidly spreading. Good thing our season is going to die down soon. It looks like next year's vaccine is going to need an update to the H3N2 component.
 
Redd
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:26 am

Most people I know who'd gotten a flu shot got the flu right after. My trick is just not to get sick, eating healthy & exercise + winter outdoor exercise builds resistance and a healthy immune system. No need for the flu shot, your body already has everything it needs to take care of a cold or flu if you take care of it.

I don't understand why so many people ignore building up their immune system, maybe there isn't enough doctors who have a clue about it? Or just make $$ on medication and flu shots! :box:
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:15 pm

Redd wrote:
Most people I know who'd gotten a flu shot got the flu right after. My trick is just not to get sick, eating healthy & exercise + winter outdoor exercise builds resistance and a healthy immune system. No need for the flu shot, your body already has everything it needs to take care of a cold or flu if you take care of it.

I don't understand why so many people ignore building up their immune system, maybe there isn't enough doctors who have a clue about it? Or just make $$ on medication and flu shots! :box:


That's A.) Just false and incredibly unscientific of you since you apparently don't understand how the immune system works. B.) Vaccines aren't very profitable, that's why there isn't more R&D into vaccines for everything and C.) The flu shot is partially subsidized in the US to maintain infrastructure and production capacity in the event of an epidemic.

Also "winter outdoor excercise" actually would make it worse. Dry air improves virus transmission and dry and cold air irritating your respiratory system make you prone to ANY infection.

On the other hand, exercise and a healthy diet is better for your general health. But the exercise doesn't have to be... outdoors in the winter...
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:53 pm

And keep in mind that some of those upper respiratory infections can linger on for a month or two. I understand the difference is that they are not likely to make you acutely ill - just medium miserable!
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DocLightning
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:04 pm

Jouhou wrote:
After actually reading through this week's cdc report,
A.) They made a typo "subclade 3C.2a1 (n=109) or clade 3C.3a (n=138)" I'm pretty sure clade 3C.3a should be 109, 3C.2a1 should be 138. This can be seen in the visualization below. I'd be pretty damn worried if it is as written...


Oooh, good catch! Yeah, around here it's all H1N1 type A, so we're sitting pretty. Fortunately, the A part of the season is drawing to a close and the B part of the season is coming. B is less infectious and usually more amenable to immunization.

Redd wrote:
Most people I know who'd gotten a flu shot got the flu right after. My trick is just not to get sick, eating healthy & exercise + winter outdoor exercise builds resistance and a healthy immune system. No need for the flu shot, your body already has everything it needs to take care of a cold or flu if you take care of it.


You have two physicians in this thread (I assume Jouhou is) telling you that you're wrong and yet you think you know more about this than the two of us? Seriously? The first rule of the Dunning-Krueger Club is that you don't know you're in the Dunning-Krueger Club, dude.

Exercise is good for you and gives you physical reserves against stressors like flu. However, it doesn't "build your immune system" and lots of winter outdoor exercise only exposes your respiratory tract to cold, dry air that causes microdamage to the respiratory mucosa, making it more likely that you'll get sick, not less.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:20 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
After actually reading through this week's cdc report,
A.) They made a typo "subclade 3C.2a1 (n=109) or clade 3C.3a (n=138)" I'm pretty sure clade 3C.3a should be 109, 3C.2a1 should be 138. This can be seen in the visualization below. I'd be pretty damn worried if it is as written...


Oooh, good catch! Yeah, around here it's all H1N1 type A, so we're sitting pretty. Fortunately, the A part of the season is drawing to a close and the B part of the season is coming. B is less infectious and usually more amenable to immunization.

Redd wrote:
Most people I know who'd gotten a flu shot got the flu right after. My trick is just not to get sick, eating healthy & exercise + winter outdoor exercise builds resistance and a healthy immune system. No need for the flu shot, your body already has everything it needs to take care of a cold or flu if you take care of it.


You have two physicians in this thread (I assume Jouhou is) telling you that you're wrong and yet you think you know more about this than the two of us? Seriously? The first rule of the Dunning-Krueger Club is that you don't know you're in the Dunning-Krueger Club, dude.

Exercise is good for you and gives you physical reserves against stressors like flu. However, it doesn't "build your immune system" and lots of winter outdoor exercise only exposes your respiratory tract to cold, dry air that causes microdamage to the respiratory mucosa, making it more likely that you'll get sick, not less.


I'm not a physician, but I've explained elsewhere my first job was working R&D at a lab, my mom was a biochemist, and I grew up reading her college textbooks because we lived in the boonies with no tv- I did it for fun. My mother's microbiology textbook was always my favorite.

Following news in infectious diseases and whatnot is more of a nerdy hobby for me much like aviation. I actually work for the DoD.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:50 am

I should add that while I know a lot about infectious disease, microbiology, and biochemistry, I'm generally at a loss when it comes to things like muscle strains. I have recurring issues with my shoulder and in that situation I have to always go to the doctor's office saying "wtf did I do to my shoulder this time?!!!"
 
KentB27
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:52 am

My mom got a flu shot earlier in the fall for this flu season. She still ended up getting the flu. On top of that, she had strep throat, bronchitis, and laryngitis at the same time as well. I didn't even know it was possible to be infected with that many viruses at once! She said that she was so weak that she had to get my dad to open her antibiotic bottles for her. She's a kindergarten teacher so she probably caught it from those germy and sticky students of hers.
 
Redd
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:23 am

DocLightning wrote:

You have two physicians in this thread (I assume Jouhou is) telling you that you're wrong and yet you think you know more about this than the two of us? Seriously? The first rule of the Dunning-Krueger Club is that you don't know you're in the Dunning-Krueger Club, dude.

Exercise is good for you and gives you physical reserves against stressors like flu. However, it doesn't "build your immune system" and lots of winter outdoor exercise only exposes your respiratory tract to cold, dry air that causes microdamage to the respiratory mucosa, making it more likely that you'll get sick, not less.


I don't think I wrote anywhere that I know more than you. Did I? I wrote that a healthy balanced diet builds your immune system, which I think you'll agree with, and exercise and time outdoors builds your resistance. I'm not a doctor, so I don't know how exactly these things work as well as you, but I do have a few friends who are physicians on whose opinions I tend to build mine.

From your response it seems like you dismiss the importance of building up your immune system? We should just rely in medication and vaccines?
 
Redd
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:27 am

Jouhou wrote:
I should add that while I know a lot about infectious disease, microbiology, and biochemistry, I'm generally at a loss when it comes to things like muscle strains. I have recurring issues with my shoulder and in that situation I have to always go to the doctor's office saying "wtf did I do to my shoulder this time?!!!"


Try going to an osteopath or a chiropractor. I regularly have sports injuries and my osteopath works wonders.
 
Redd
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:02 am

Jouhou wrote:
Redd wrote:
Also "winter outdoor excercise" actually would make it worse. Dry air improves virus transmission and dry and cold air irritating your respiratory system make you prone to ANY infection.

On the other hand, exercise and a healthy diet is better for your general health. But the exercise doesn't have to be... outdoors in the winter...


Now this bothers me. Cold & dry air is such a blanket and unscientific statement. What are the values of humidity and temperature when it becomes damaging to your respiratory system? Below 5''C? Below 20% Humidity?And with those values in hand are people who regularity exercise equally impacted? Vs the general pop.?

I recently spoke about just this with my jogging group while grabbing some coffee after a jog. While we all jog in winter several times/week, not one jogger can remember getting sick since they've started jogging regularly. There are also studies which say that cold weather running is actually good for you. So what is it?
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:40 pm

Redd wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
I should add that while I know a lot about infectious disease, microbiology, and biochemistry, I'm generally at a loss when it comes to things like muscle strains. I have recurring issues with my shoulder and in that situation I have to always go to the doctor's office saying "wtf did I do to my shoulder this time?!!!"


Try going to an osteopath or a chiropractor. I regularly have sports injuries and my osteopath works wonders.


My regular doctor is a DO (Osteopath) not an MD so that works out. She's good at the things I don't know much about, and on the other hand if the tries prescribing me something that's going to interact with something I'm already prescribed or otherwise contraindicated by another medical condition I can point it out to her before leaving the office. She just looks it up on her phone and is like "oh yeah, you're right, weird I'd never heard of that". That said, if I didn't know the things I do I'm not so sure a DO is the best choice. She's almost prescribed me a few things that would have made me sicker rather than better.

She would also still recommend to everyone that they should get a flu shot. They make enough doses in the US each year for anyone who wants one, and a normal flu shot without insurance is only about $20.

Redd wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Redd wrote:
Also "winter outdoor excercise" actually would make it worse. Dry air improves virus transmission and dry and cold air irritating your respiratory system make you prone to ANY infection.

On the other hand, exercise and a healthy diet is better for your general health. But the exercise doesn't have to be... outdoors in the winter...


Now this bothers me. Cold & dry air is such a blanket and unscientific statement. What are the values of humidity and temperature when it becomes damaging to your respiratory system? Below 5''C? Below 20% Humidity?And with those values in hand are people who regularity exercise equally impacted? Vs the general pop.?

I recently spoke about just this with my jogging group while grabbing some coffee after a jog. While we all jog in winter several times/week, not one jogger can remember getting sick since they've started jogging regularly. There are also studies which say that cold weather running is actually good for you. So what is it?


Are you saying that it doesn't go below freezing there? In that case going for a jog in mildly cool weather probably is just more comfortable.

It still doesn't build up "tolerance" or whatever. It's just generally good for you. It's kind of like how people here pound down Orange juice when they get sick. No, vitamin C doesn't just somehow purge you of all illness. Getting adequate amounts of vitamin C daily will however make you generally healthy and not impair your immune system with a vitamin deficiency.

I thought you lived in Poland or something, are winters that mild there? I would have thought they'd be at least somewhere close in harshness to ours.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:03 pm

Jouhou wrote:
I should add that while I know a lot about infectious disease, microbiology, and biochemistry, I'm generally at a loss when it comes to things like muscle strains. I have recurring issues with my shoulder and in that situation I have to always go to the doctor's office saying "wtf did I do to my shoulder this time?!!!"


I have found a sports clinic and sport physical therapist my best friend after injuries. Also after serious injuries x-rays often will not show soft tissue damage, but an MRI will. Insurance companies don't like the later, so I have had to start with x-rays. Typically takes a couple months or more to get a good diagnosis.
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Redd
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Re: Flu shot, cold shot?

Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:43 pm

Jouhou wrote:

I thought you lived in Poland or something, are winters that mild there? I would have thought they'd be at least somewhere close in harshness to ours.


They've been mild for the past few years, no more than 2-3 weeks of -5 to -10"C, usually around mid January, then it hovers around freezing +/- 2'C for the rest of winter. For the past week we've been at around +8'C which is quite nice for the middle of February.

Although Poland used to have quite serious winters from what I've heard, but I've been here for 10 years now and I've only experienced maybe 1-2 cold and snowy winters.

Where do you live?

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