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Aesma
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U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Tue May 14, 2019 5:40 am

In the latest uptick of trans-Atlantic tensions, European ships involved in the construction of a controversial gas pipeline from Russia to Germany could be subject to U.S. sanctions under a new bipartisan bill that will be introduced in the U.S. Senate as early as Monday.


https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/13/us ... e-gazprom/

I'm against the pipeline, but I find this US posture outrageous. Are US politicians really thinking of themselves as puppet masters who can control everyone around the planet ?

Can't they concentrate on fixing their own country for a change ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Tue May 14, 2019 8:08 am

Aesma wrote:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/13/us ... e-gazprom/

I'm against the pipeline, but I find this US posture outrageous. Are US politicians really thinking of themselves as puppet masters who can control everyone around the planet ?

Can't they concentrate on fixing their own country for a change ?


This is simple really. 2 things here to keep in mind.

1. USA is aggressively pitching their own LNG, and are using these sanctions and threats of those simply as dishonest competition. American LNG has too hard of a time competing with Russian pipeline gas, and even with Russian Arctic LNG (where it costs 30% less to liquify it than in Texas and Louisiana). So the answer is kind of “yes, they are working on their country” - helping their firms to sell their gas.

2. Why are they talking like this to you? Because they can, and they’ve seen it works on Iran example. So you need to regain sovereignty and independence, and this time for real, not just at “blah-blah” level. And the road there is hard, costly and full of compromises.

Sanctioning Russia not only isn’t of any further value, but starts to cost them and they are sick and tired of it, hence Europeans are next in the list. That’s about it.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Tue May 14, 2019 8:35 am

Aesma wrote:
I'm against the pipeline, but I find this US posture outrageous.

What is outrageous is Merkel's dirty deals with Erdogan and Putin.


Aesma wrote:
Can't they concentrate on fixing their own country for a change ?

Please, remember that next time Macron plays the emperor of Europe once again (while having a state of emergency at home).
Last edited by L410Turbolet on Tue May 14, 2019 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Aesma
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Tue May 14, 2019 8:40 am

Well the EU is actually a political entity, it's his job to try and make it go forward.

Last time I checked NATO isn't supposed to be that.

It should be the EU doing something about that pipeline, if anything.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Tue May 14, 2019 8:57 am

Aesma wrote:
In the latest uptick of trans-Atlantic tensions, European ships involved in the construction of a controversial gas pipeline from Russia to Germany could be subject to U.S. sanctions under a new bipartisan bill that will be introduced in the U.S. Senate as early as Monday.


https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/13/us ... e-gazprom/

I'm against the pipeline, but I find this US posture outrageous. Are US politicians really thinking of themselves as puppet masters who can control everyone around the planet ?

Can't they concentrate on fixing their own country for a change ?


Correct. This has nothing to do with the US and I am against the pipeline, we should move to renewables anyway and stop funding Putin's Russia for their natural resources.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Tue May 14, 2019 9:02 am

anrec80 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/13/us ... e-gazprom/

I'm against the pipeline, but I find this US posture outrageous. Are US politicians really thinking of themselves as puppet masters who can control everyone around the planet ?

Can't they concentrate on fixing their own country for a change ?


This is simple really. 2 things here to keep in mind.

1. USA is aggressively pitching their own LNG, and are using these sanctions and threats of those simply as dishonest competition. American LNG has too hard of a time competing with Russian pipeline gas, and even with Russian Arctic LNG (where it costs 30% less to liquify it than in Texas and Louisiana). So the answer is kind of “yes, they are working on their country” - helping their firms to sell their gas.

2. Why are they talking like this to you? Because they can, and they’ve seen it works on Iran example. So you need to regain sovereignty and independence, and this time for real, not just at “blah-blah” level. And the road there is hard, costly and full of compromises.

Sanctioning Russia not only isn’t of any further value, but starts to cost them and they are sick and tired of it, hence Europeans are next in the list. That’s about it.


I am a bit worried about your health, posting at 4.30AM in New York, or perhaps you are posting from a troll factory form Sint Pietersburg at 11.30AM?

Anyway, of course, your post is to put oil on the fire. You say you are Canadian, living in America, but you are actively advocating against America and on other threads, you are advocating for Trump's policies. Let's say you have very flexible morals and point of views? The only thing you are consistent about is pro-Putin, in everything.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
mham001
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 1:18 am

I don't know about sanctions but anything that highlights the sheer hypocrisy of proclaiming Putin as enemy #1 (backed up by real experience) while signing huge deals that enriches him and his oligarch cronies is a good thing. Totally shameful.
 
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casinterest
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 1:30 am

Here is the real motivation behind this one. Protecting US exports.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/poli ... nearly-300
The European Union announced Thursday that its imports of U.S. liquefied natural gas have climbed 272% since 2016, with the steepest increases occurring after President Trump met last July with European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker to hash out a trade deal.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 5:39 am

Dutchy wrote:
I am a bit worried about your health, posting at 4.30AM in New York, or perhaps you are posting from a troll factory form Sint Pietersburg at 11.30AM?


Thank you for your concerns regarding my health Dutchy. Just as many other middle class people, I do not spend 100% if my time in NYC. My parents live in Vanvouver, Canada (-3 hrs), I also have relatives in Germany. I visit other places here and there too. I assure you, I get enough sleep. Again - thank you!


Dutchy wrote:
You say you are Canadian, living in America, but you are actively advocating against America and on other threads, you are advocating for Trump's policies. Let's say you have very flexible morals and point of views? The only thing you are consistent about is pro-Putin, in everything.


Yes, I do understand some things that Trump does, but, of course, I do not agree with everything they do. For example, I agree with Trump's intent to close borders, simplify tax system, attempts to bring or retain manufacturing jobs into the USA, to name a few. Together with that I disagree with their foreign policy, which I find reckless (just as I am sure many Americans and many Europeans). I do not share his beliefs on sanctioning to the right and to the left, telling others with whom to do and whom to not do business with - and most Europeans here share the same position. I am also against US's constant intrusion into other countries and "regime changes", be it Venezuela, Syria, Ukraine. What's anti-American here? It's perfectly normal for any democratic society that some people do not agree with everything the Government or President does, and even disagree with most of what they do.

Speaking of this Nordstream pipe - I neither agree nor disagree with it. If European gas consortiums (Shell, Wintershall, OMV and a few others take part in it) find that this investment will generate them cost-saving opportunities - let them do it. Lower prices for consumers and/or a bit more tax revenue for the state. I wouldn't prohibit them doing it just because some people in some places believe they are doing business with people with wrong beliefs. Many are talking about depriving Ukraine of their vital revenue source - but Ukrainian pipe (and shady business schemes around it) was exactly what has given birth, grown and keeps supporting today's corrupted oligarchic regime in that country. If 2-3 of their oligarchs get USD 1-2 bln each poorer - there are bigger issues than that. Ukrainian people or their state has barely seen any value of this pipeline.

These gas companies are doing a very important job for Europe - thanks to them European middle and lower middle class families do not have to make tough choices in winter - to turn up the heat in kids' bedroom or put food on the table the next day. In our Canadian town I know people who live in apartments that have only electric heat, and they suffer with their electric bills in winter - $300/mo is a lot for very many. And this is Vancouver, where it does not get below freezing. What about Alberta or Manitoba, where it's -40C in winter? I know you are a renewable energy fan, but really - trying to heat yourself with wind and solar in -40C will not get you far at all. I lived and went to school in Manitoba.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 6:26 am

Aesma wrote:
It should be the EU doing something about that pipeline, if anything.

Everyone along the pipeline route is against the Nord Stream 2, from Denmark to Estonia. Franco-Geman pandering to Putin is obviously more important than EU's energy security.
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 6:35 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Everyone along the pipeline route is against the Nord Stream 2, from Denmark to Estonia. Franco-Geman pandering to Putin is obviously more important than EU's energy security.


Everyone knows those nations would not like another pipeline a-la Nordstream 2, therefore it's being placed in Baltic Sea so that there is nobody on its route. Denmark will be passed around if there is no permissions to lay the pipes in its economic area. Finland, Norway and Sweden gave permissions.
 
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 6:53 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I am a bit worried about your health, posting at 4.30AM in New York, or perhaps you are posting from a troll factory form Sint Pietersburg at 11.30AM?


Thank you for your concerns regarding my health Dutchy. Just as many other middle class people, I do not spend 100% if my time in NYC. My parents live in Vanvouver, Canada (-3 hrs), I also have relatives in Germany. I visit other places here and there too. I assure you, I get enough sleep. Again - thank you!


Dutchy wrote:
You say you are Canadian, living in America, but you are actively advocating against America and on other threads, you are advocating for Trump's policies. Let's say you have very flexible morals and point of views? The only thing you are consistent about is pro-Putin, in everything.


Yes, I do understand some things that Trump does, but, of course, I do not agree with everything they do. For example, I agree with Trump's intent to close borders, simplify tax system, attempts to bring or retain manufacturing jobs into the USA, to name a few. Together with that I disagree with their foreign policy, which I find reckless (just as I am sure many Americans and many Europeans). I do not share his beliefs on sanctioning to the right and to the left, telling others with whom to do and whom to not do business with - and most Europeans here share the same position. I am also against US's constant intrusion into other countries and "regime changes", be it Venezuela, Syria, Ukraine. What's anti-American here? It's perfectly normal for any democratic society that some people do not agree with everything the Government or President does, and even disagree with most of what they do.

Speaking of this Nordstream pipe - I neither agree nor disagree with it. If European gas consortiums (Shell, Wintershall, OMV and a few others take part in it) find that this investment will generate them cost-saving opportunities - let them do it. Lower prices for consumers and/or a bit more tax revenue for the state. I wouldn't prohibit them doing it just because some people in some places believe they are doing business with people with wrong beliefs. Many are talking about depriving Ukraine of their vital revenue source - but Ukrainian pipe (and shady business schemes around it) was exactly what has given birth, grown and keeps supporting today's corrupted oligarchic regime in that country. If 2-3 of their oligarchs get USD 1-2 bln each poorer - there are bigger issues than that. Ukrainian people or their state has barely seen any value of this pipeline.

These gas companies are doing a very important job for Europe - thanks to them European middle and lower middle class families do not have to make tough choices in winter - to turn up the heat in kids' bedroom or put food on the table the next day. In our Canadian town I know people who live in apartments that have only electric heat, and they suffer with their electric bills in winter - $300/mo is a lot for very many. And this is Vancouver, where it does not get below freezing. What about Alberta or Manitoba, where it's -40C in winter? I know you are a renewable energy fan, but really - trying to heat yourself with wind and solar in -40C will not get you far at all. I lived and went to school in Manitoba.


Interesting that you omit the sentence: "The only thing you are consistent about is pro-Putin, in everything."

So this still stands.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 7:10 am

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting that you omit the sentence: "The only thing you are consistent about is pro-Putin, in everything."


Well - "agreeing with views of ..." and "pro-..." isn't necessarily the same thing. I agree with Trump on some things, but I consider myself not being a pro-Trump. And certainly not a Trumpist.

Speaking of anything else I wrote - you agree with it all and/or have no opinion? :D :D :D
 
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 7:15 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Interesting that you omit the sentence: "The only thing you are consistent about is pro-Putin, in everything."


Well - "agreeing with views of ..." and "pro-..." isn't necessarily the same thing. I agree with Trump on some things, but I consider myself not being a pro-Trump. And certainly not a Trumpist.


I agree with you, you are a Pro-Putin guy, not necessary a pro-Trump guy, you only agree with Trump if it fits your narrative or better the Putin narrative. So, in this case, you don't support Trump.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 7:20 am

Dutchy wrote:
I agree with you, you are a Pro-Putin guy, not necessary a pro-Trump guy, you only agree with Trump if it fits your narrative or better the Putin narrative. So, in this case, you don't support Trump.


I am not into narratives, I am just trying to see the world without ideology and pink glasses, the way it is and the way it works. Nothing more. And - frankly - so tend to do leaders whom you call "oligarchic" and "autocrats". This is not only their job; they can be carried out or even killed if they ever go on wishful thinking. Hence the impression of similarity their views and mine views, but really - those are just two ways the same underlying reasons are surfacing themselves in this world.
 
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 7:31 am

anrec80 wrote:
Speaking of anything else I wrote - you agree with it all and/or have no opinion? :D :D :D


No, I do not. Russia's Putin isn't helping the middle and lower middle classes in Europe. I will explain it again: burning fossil fuels have all kinds of external cost which aren't in the price of fossil fuels, so cheap fossil fuels will lead to cost elsewhere which are being paid by the same taxpayer. So it is a false narrative.
Furthermore, it is a false dilemma, if you want a more equal society, than do it properly and not because of your fuel bill.

Renewables are here to stay and the future is green, no other option, so this pipeline is you pipedream of keeping Putin's government funded. Although I am against this US policy, I am also against putting in more infrastructure for fossil fuels.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 7:42 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I agree with you, you are a Pro-Putin guy, not necessary a pro-Trump guy, you only agree with Trump if it fits your narrative or better the Putin narrative. So, in this case, you don't support Trump.


I am not into narratives, I am just trying to see the world without ideology and pink glasses, the way it is and the way it works. Nothing more. And - frankly - so tend to do leaders whom you call "oligarchic" and "autocrats". This is not only their job; they can be carried out or even killed if they ever go on wishful thinking. Hence the impression of similarity their views and mine views, but really - those are just two ways the same underlying reasons are surfacing themselves in this world.


Journalists / true opposition in Russia have a much higher mortality rate than Russian presidents. And it is duly noted that calling Ukraine oligarchs, oligarchs, is fine by you, but calling the same in Russia then there are quote's around it. Putin is an autocrat, almost nobody will dispute this. Putin is held into power by oligarchs whom rob Russia and has been doing so ever since the fall of the iron curtain, almost nobody will dispute this. Putin is corrupt and so it Russia, almost nobody will dispute this. Ukraine has been the same and hopefully, things will move slowly to something better, painfully slow, but there are signs of this, last elections are such a sign.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 7:56 am

Dutchy wrote:
No, I do not. Russia's Putin isn't helping the middle and lower middle classes in Europe. I will explain it again: burning fossil fuels have all kinds of external cost which aren't in the price of fossil fuels, so cheap fossil fuels will lead to cost elsewhere which are being paid by the same taxpayer. So it is a false narrative.


For tens (if not hundreds) of millions of families - USD or EUR 400/mo bill is not just narrative Dutchy. This is a matter of whether they have food on the table, or whether they have their home or sleep in a shelter. For our family - even those $10-15 "carbon surcharge" don't make me a supporter of your Paris agreement; to us this is more important than Canada's participation in this Paris agreement, sorry. They need to find a way to not put all this "planet care" things onto ever-harder-squeezed middle class.

Dutchy wrote:
Furthermore, it is a false dilemma, if you want a more equal society, than do it properly and not because of your fuel bill.

You know what - I am not religious about this "equal society". I believe it's more important to have initiatives and rewards for oneself to improve themselves and reap all rewards of it. This is what moves the society and the nation forward and keeps it competitive. During my younger years, I've put in my fair share of 16 hour days in the office, to develop earning potential I have now. If someone is OK just laying on their couch being surrounded by their own garbage - this is their choice, I have no problem with that. We are living in a free society. And I do not believe I should pay for changing this. Those who want to get their living conditions improved - will be looking for opportunities to do so; any modern society provides those. And the one who seeks shall find.

In Europe generally - as soon as I am about to at last get some rewards of it, "the society" will take away more than half if it. You over there (and liberals here) call it "fair share", I know. But I think - those "in need" need to do some more work for themselves, perhaps go for more compromises, agree to more things. Those who work their @ss off deserve earnings to stay with them and their families, not some who claim to be "poor" and "destitute".

Dutchy wrote:
Renewables are here to stay and the future is green, no other option, so this pipeline is you pipedream of keeping Putin's government funded. Although I am against this US policy, I am also against putting in more infrastructure for fossil fuels.


Sure, but people need to survive through certain number of cold and rough winters before that happens. And overall - this "green" future reminds me tales of "communism" - a 100% happy society, where all the troubles and problems are in the past. That did not happen, as we all know; and hence I do not quite accept discussions of similar utopias (and based on my life experience I think your "green" stuff is closer to a utopia, as much as I dislike to say this).
 
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 8:37 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
No, I do not. Russia's Putin isn't helping the middle and lower middle classes in Europe. I will explain it again: burning fossil fuels have all kinds of external cost which aren't in the price of fossil fuels, so cheap fossil fuels will lead to cost elsewhere which are being paid by the same taxpayer. So it is a false narrative.


For tens (if not hundreds) of millions of families - USD or EUR 400/mo bill is not just narrative Dutchy. This is a matter of whether they have food on the table, or whether they have their home or sleep in a shelter. For our family - even those $10-15 "carbon surcharge" don't make me a supporter of your Paris agreement; to us this is more important than Canada's participation in this Paris agreement, sorry. They need to find a way to not put all this "planet care" things onto ever-harder-squeezed middle class.

Dutchy wrote:
Furthermore, it is a false dilemma, if you want a more equal society, than do it properly and not because of your fuel bill.

You know what - I am not religious about this "equal society". I believe it's more important to have initiatives and rewards for oneself to improve themselves and reap all rewards of it. This is what moves the society and the nation forward and keeps it competitive. During my younger years, I've put in my fair share of 16 hour days in the office, to develop earning potential I have now. If someone is OK just laying on their couch being surrounded by their own garbage - this is their choice, I have no problem with that. We are living in a free society. And I do not believe I should pay for changing this. Those who want to get their living conditions improved - will be looking for opportunities to do so; any modern society provides those. And the one who seeks shall find.

In Europe generally - as soon as I am about to at last get some rewards of it, "the society" will take away more than half if it. You over there (and liberals here) call it "fair share", I know. But I think - those "in need" need to do some more work for themselves, perhaps go for more compromises, agree to more things. Those who work their @ss off deserve earnings to stay with them and their families, not some who claim to be "poor" and "destitute".

Dutchy wrote:
Renewables are here to stay and the future is green, no other option, so this pipeline is you pipedream of keeping Putin's government funded. Although I am against this US policy, I am also against putting in more infrastructure for fossil fuels.


Sure, but people need to survive through certain number of cold and rough winters before that happens. And overall - this "green" future reminds me tales of "communism" - a 100% happy society, where all the troubles and problems are in the past. That did not happen, as we all know; and hence I do not quite accept discussions of similar utopias (and based on my life experience I think your "green" stuff is closer to a utopia, as much as I dislike to say this).


Don't portray yourself as a defender of the middle classes, it truly doesn't suit you. Even what you are saying here, is undermining that stand. You are advocating some kind of capitalism on steroids, just like Russia has. And what has brought that Russia, great differences between wealth, greater than in India for instance.

It isn't mine Paris agreement, only two countries in the world didn't subscribe to it: Nicaragua (because it didn't go far enough) and Syria (because they are engaged in a civil war). Just looked it up and even those two are now signatories to this. So actually it is one of those agreements, with all its flaws, that are globally recognized as important. We are working towards a cleaner future, like it or not that doesn't matter. It isn't utopia, it is a matter of survival.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 8:51 am

Dutchy wrote:
Don't portray yourself as a defender of the middle classes, it truly doesn't suit you. Even what you are saying here, is undermining that stand. You are advocating some kind of capitalism on steroids, just like Russia has. And what has brought that Russia, great differences between wealth, greater than in India for instance.


I do believe that middle class needs to be protected from oversized governments (who like taking away and splitting, "fighting for the planet" and the likes) in order for it not to become lower or poor class. In 21st century a state needs to be compact and sized just right in order to be competitive. And all I am advocating - that if an individual earned something through their investment, dedication and hard work - it belongs to the individual and not becomes some "fair share". Nothing else. Fair share in my view - flat low income tax, combined with reasonable property taxes, maybe some consumption tax. Certainly not extractive 50%+ income taxes. And in Russia - distribution of wealth is like in the USA, flat 13% income tax, with home-ownership rates being well above 90%, with mortgages being few and far in between. Hence, frankly, overall living standards in Russia aren't much below those in EU and the USA, regardless how it appears on statistics.

Dutchy wrote:
It isn't mine Paris agreement, only two countries in the world didn't subscribe to it: Nicaragua (because it didn't go far enough) and Syria (because they are engaged in a civil war). Just looked it up and even those two are now signatories to this. So actually it is one of those agreements, with all its flaws, that are globally recognized as important. We are working towards a cleaner future, like it or not that doesn't matter. It isn't utopia, it is a matter of survival.


The USA left this agreement, and Russia did not ratify it. And I believe Canada has no business there either. Its middle class cannot afford it with all its carbon tax offset stuff.
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 8:55 am

Dutchy wrote:
Whataboutism, well known USSR propaganda trick.


Nope, this is recent years reality in a "democratic" country, not propaganda at all. Are all those people alive, free and well?

Dutchy wrote:
Whataboutism and :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Just a definition, not whatabaoutism.

Dutchy wrote:
We will see what will happen in 10 years time.


I'd love to - if Ukraine survives these 10 years. It's not in demand among its own citizens, and its Western EU neighbors just can't stop looking at chunks of its territory.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 8:59 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Don't portray yourself as a defender of the middle classes, it truly doesn't suit you. Even what you are saying here, is undermining that stand. You are advocating some kind of capitalism on steroids, just like Russia has. And what has brought that Russia, great differences between wealth, greater than in India for instance.


I do believe that middle class needs to be protected from oversized governments (who like taking away and splitting, "fighting for the planet" and the likes) in order for it not to become lower or poor class. In 21st century a state needs to be compact and sized just right in order to be competitive. And all I am advocating - that if an individual earned something through their investment, dedication and hard work - it belongs to the individual and not becomes some "fair share". Nothing else. Fair share in my view - flat low income tax, combined with reasonable property taxes, maybe some consumption tax. Certainly not extractive 50%+ income taxes. And in Russia - distribution of wealth is like in the USA, flat 13% income tax, with home-ownership rates being well above 90%, with mortgages being few and far in between. Hence, frankly, overall living standards in Russia aren't much below those in EU and the USA, regardless how it appears on statistics.

Dutchy wrote:
It isn't mine Paris agreement, only two countries in the world didn't subscribe to it: Nicaragua (because it didn't go far enough) and Syria (because they are engaged in a civil war). Just looked it up and even those two are now signatories to this. So actually it is one of those agreements, with all its flaws, that are globally recognized as important. We are working towards a cleaner future, like it or not that doesn't matter. It isn't utopia, it is a matter of survival.


The USA left this agreement, and Russia did not ratify it. And I believe Canada has no business there either. Its middle class cannot afford it with all its carbon tax offset stuff.


There are numerous of errors, small and big in your statement again, or framing if you wish. I will point out one though: USA hasn't left the Paris agreement, it might, but it hasn't because it can't just yet.
I am done with you, will spend my time on more useful things.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 9:09 am

I will leave everyone with John Oliver segment about carbon pricing, give a price to pollution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDcro7dPqpA
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 10:27 am

casinterest wrote:
Here is the real motivation behind this one. Protecting US exports.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/poli ... nearly-300
The European Union announced Thursday that its imports of U.S. liquefied natural gas have climbed 272% since 2016, with the steepest increases occurring after President Trump met last July with European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker to hash out a trade deal.


Yes, that's the strategy behind it.

Current imports and their increase, not so much, they simply went from almost nothing to three times nothing. Helped by the increase in port capacity. After doing a quick search, I couldn't find any LNG port in Germany, is that correct ?
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casinterest
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 1:30 pm

Aesma wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Here is the real motivation behind this one. Protecting US exports.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/poli ... nearly-300
The European Union announced Thursday that its imports of U.S. liquefied natural gas have climbed 272% since 2016, with the steepest increases occurring after President Trump met last July with European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker to hash out a trade deal.


Yes, that's the strategy behind it.

Current imports and their increase, not so much, they simply went from almost nothing to three times nothing. Helped by the increase in port capacity. After doing a quick search, I couldn't find any LNG port in Germany, is that correct ?


Why do you think Trump cares about what you consider nothing? He is worried about the Something that is an export from the US and from his :"base". LNG shipping is not cheap, and as the Trade war with China expands, the US manufacturers need markets. If Russia puts in a pipeline it makes NG cheaper in Europe and hurts exports from the US. Something Trump does not want to see happen to his base.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 2:41 pm

Strictly speaking we should want NATO allies to rely on NATO allies for energy security. I don't see how we can legally sanction Russia for doing legal business with our allies but I can understand the frustration of seeing allies rely on imports from our top geo-political foe. In a round-a-bout way it is about national security. Moreso than say the united states importing washing machines, microwaves, refrigerators from potential geo-political foes (though in reality most of those imports come from close allies at this point). Natural gas and other forms of energy production are far more important.

Still, I don't see a legal channel/basis for this to be done. It's just political theater to apply pressure. We should try and find ways to make our exported LNG more affordable for our allies.

Also. Once again this is just another example of "putin's puppet" going rogue against his master. :roll:
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 3:18 pm

Aesma wrote:

Current imports and their increase, not so much, they simply went from almost nothing to three times nothing. Helped by the increase in port capacity. After doing a quick search, I couldn't find any LNG port in Germany, is that correct ?


There’s plenty of LNG capacity in Europe, and relatively small percentage of it is being used (far less than half AFAIK).
 
Kiwirob
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 5:08 pm

Aesma wrote:
In the latest uptick of trans-Atlantic tensions, European ships involved in the construction of a controversial gas pipeline from Russia to Germany could be subject to U.S. sanctions under a new bipartisan bill that will be introduced in the U.S. Senate as early as Monday.


https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/13/us ... e-gazprom/

I'm against the pipeline, but I find this US posture outrageous. Are US politicians really thinking of themselves as puppet masters who can control everyone around the planet ?

Can't they concentrate on fixing their own country for a change ?


I’ve mentioned this project in the past in relation to US extra territorial sanctions, the EU should grow a pair and sanction the US for a few things, it’s absolutely none of the US’s business what Europe does in Europe.
 
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 5:24 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
In the latest uptick of trans-Atlantic tensions, European ships involved in the construction of a controversial gas pipeline from Russia to Germany could be subject to U.S. sanctions under a new bipartisan bill that will be introduced in the U.S. Senate as early as Monday.


https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/13/us ... e-gazprom/

I'm against the pipeline, but I find this US posture outrageous. Are US politicians really thinking of themselves as puppet masters who can control everyone around the planet ?

Can't they concentrate on fixing their own country for a change ?


I’ve mentioned this project in the past in relation to US extra territorial sanctions, the EU should grow a pair and sanction the US for a few things, it’s absolutely none of the US’s business what Europe does in Europe.


I think we should sanction New Zealand for having such nice landscapes for producing films in. :stirthepot:
 
WIederling
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 5:53 pm

Aesma wrote:
Are US politicians really thinking of themselves as puppet masters who can control everyone around the planet ?

YES
Aesma wrote:
Can't they concentrate on fixing their own country for a change ?


That would require constructive creativity.
Completely out of their depth.

And they'd prefer to sell Russian LNG rebadged as US LNG to Europe :-)))
Murphy is an optimist
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 7:12 pm

WIederling wrote:

And they'd prefer to sell Russian LNG rebadged as US LNG to Europe :-)))


Yepp - this is how all commodity markets work. Americans are even here and there buying sanctioned Russian gas rebranded as French or British.
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 7:15 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

I’ve mentioned this project in the past in relation to US extra territorial sanctions, the EU should grow a pair and sanction the US for a few things, it’s absolutely none of the US’s business what Europe does in Europe.


The EU should grow not only a pair, but also real sovereignty. Eurozone does not even have their own financial system, and their systemic banks are making their $$ in the US markets. Major US companies like Total are getting funding on American capital markets. SWIFT system is wide open to American reporting and regulations - they don’t have an analog even to this that would be for Eurozone and exchanges within Eurozone. They got a lot of work to do before they can sanction.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 7:32 pm

anrec80 wrote:
The EU should grow not only a pair, but also real sovereignty.

By increasing its dependecy on Russian gas even further? Makes perfect sense. :roll:
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 8:34 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
By increasing its dependecy on Russian gas even further? Makes perfect sense. :roll:


If you have sovereignty - then nobody will tell you where to buy your gas, and where not to buy it. If you want to increase dependency on Russian gas - you are free to do so. If you want to decrease it - you are free to do so as well.
 
mham001
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 8:59 pm

anrec80 wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
By increasing its dependecy on Russian gas even further? Makes perfect sense. :roll:


If you have sovereignty - then nobody will tell you where to buy your gas, and where not to buy it. If you want to increase dependency on Russian gas - you are free to do so. If you want to decrease it - you are free to do so as well.


It doesn't quite work that way when Putin threatens to cut the supply in the middle of winter and there is no infrastructure to replace it any time soon, does it?

Bear in mind, there is precedent for this exact scenario. Now who in their right mind would make themselves more dependent on that source?

Kiwirob wrote:
I’ve mentioned this project in the past in relation to US extra territorial sanctions, the EU should grow a pair and sanction the US for a few things, it’s absolutely none of the US’s business what Europe does in Europe.


Then Europe should not come running to the US when the big bad bear rattles his sabre. Nor should the US support a continent that enriches that bear and his friends.
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Thu May 16, 2019 10:33 pm

mham001 wrote:
It doesn't quite work that way when Putin threatens to cut the supply in the middle of winter and there is no infrastructure to replace it any time soon, does it?


Let’s keep this separate. Sovereignty - is your ability to choose your sources, be it Russia or someone else. Does it make sense? Apparently Europeans see it does. Russia has been Europe’s supplier for about 50 years now, and Gazprom’s volumes and market share keeps growing. Glitches and pressure drops can happen. Suppliers and intermediaries can fail here and there, this is normal thing. Russians have never turned off gas to customers who pay on time. They’ve had issues with Ukraine who has track record of siphoning transit gas. Hence the pipe.

mham001 wrote:
Then Europe should not come running to the US when the big bad bear rattles his sabre. Nor should the US support a continent that enriches that bear and his friends.


Perfectly agree - Europe should fix up their military at last, and, if they like, enter military controls agreements with the “bear”. USA should no longer spend their resources for their defense.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Fri May 17, 2019 3:25 am

anrec80 wrote:
Russians have never turned off gas to customers who pay on time. They’ve had issues with Ukraine who has track record of siphoning transit gas. Hence the pipe.

Please ask your politruk for an updated script. Russia has turned off gas to total of 18 countries in 2009. Weaponization of gas pipelines is nothing new in Russian politics. Gorbachev tried to persuade Lithuania not to secede from the Soviet Evil Empire by cutting their gas supplies in early 1991.
Despite this track record the EU is tying the Russian energy noose around its collective neck even tighter.
Sure, Germans will always cut some sort of dirty deal with Kremlin tyrants (that's the reason they and their French lapdogs are so hell bent at destroying NATO) as they have always done before. With Nord Stream 2 (Ribbentrop-Molotov 2.0) they would be more than happy to assist Putin in letting CEE hang out in the cold. Literally.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Fri May 17, 2019 3:34 am

mham001 wrote:
Now who in their right mind would make themselves more dependent on that source?

Germans... while throwing hysterical tantrums at any mention of nuclear energy. How not surprising.
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Fri May 17, 2019 5:36 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Russia has turned off gas to total of 18 countries in 2009. Weaponization of gas pipelines is nothing new in Russian politics.


What weaponization? Those clashes were caused by your neighbor not wanting to sign a purchase contract and pay on time. Instead, they preferred to siphon the fuel off without paying for it. No “weaponization” anywhere - just pay for what you took on time, that’s all.

And this is exactly what triggered these streams - Nord Stream 1 and now Nord Stream 2. Given that major European customers together with Gazprom are investing billions into these pipelines, they see issues not with Gazprom.
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Fri May 17, 2019 5:47 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
[
With Nord Stream 2 (Ribbentrop-Molotov 2.0) they would be more than happy to assist Putin in letting CEE hang out in the cold. Literally.


German and Russian major companies are doing business in their best interests, just as any other firms, big or small. Nothing else. This gas will flow to Baumgarten, Austria - where it will be available for sale. You can buy it there. You will need to sign a contract and pay for what you consumed of course. Speaking of CEE “out in the cold” problem - solutions are available, Barmgauten hub is just one of them. But neither Russia nor Germany are responsible for solving this problem for CEE.
 
alfa164
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Fri May 17, 2019 5:55 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Russians have never turned off gas to customers who pay on time. They’ve had issues with Ukraine who has track record of siphoning transit gas. Hence the pipe.

Please ask your politruk for an updated script..


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: Russia's scripts - along with Russia's deflections and Russia's trolls - are getting old...

L410Turbolet wrote:
[Russia has turned off gas to total of 18 countries in 2009. Weaponization of gas pipelines is nothing new in Russian politics. Gorbachev tried to persuade Lithuania not to secede from the Soviet Evil Empire by cutting their gas supplies in early 1991. Despite this track record the EU is tying the Russian energy noose around its collective neck even tighter. Sure, Germans will always cut some sort of dirty deal with Kremlin tyrants (that's the reason they and their French lapdogs are so hell bent at destroying NATO) as they have always done before. With Nord Stream 2 (Ribbentrop-Molotov 2.0) they would be more than happy to assist Putin in letting CEE hang out in the cold. Literally.


It is sad that the divisiveness in European politics - pushed and agitated for by Russia - has led to the weakening of NATO, but I blame Trump just as much as I blame the Europeans. He has unilaterally undermined the role of the USA in the organization, and left those European leaders wondering whether we remain a strong ally or not. He and his cronies seem incapable of understanding the results of their incompetence.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
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WIederling
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Fri May 17, 2019 6:37 pm

alfa164 wrote:
It is sad that the divisiveness in European politics - pushed and agitated for by Russia - has led to the weakening of NATO, but I blame Trump just as much as I blame the Europeans. He has unilaterally undermined the role of the USA in the organization, and left those European leaders wondering whether we remain a strong ally or not. He and his cronies seem incapable of understanding the results of their incompetence.


Seems to be an alternate timeline you are living in.

Ukraine and Poland are definitely US instigated "problems" in Europe.
Murphy is an optimist
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Fri May 17, 2019 9:28 pm

alfa164 wrote:

It is sad that the divisiveness in European politics - pushed and agitated for by Russia - has led to the weakening of NATO, but I blame Trump just as much as I blame the Europeans. He has unilaterally undermined the role of the USA in the organization, and left those European leaders wondering whether we remain a strong ally or not. He and his cronies seem incapable of understanding the results of their incompetence.


Well - under the rhetoric “we are in alliance” USA is basically providing you in Europe security and defense. All the expense of American taxpayers, without getting anything back. Expectedly Trump, as businessman and a large taxpayer, sees this as an unnecessary expense for his country. And as an American taxpayer - I agree with him. Europe consists of wealthy countries with efficient economies and advanced technologically. They are capable of their own defense.

So this is a matter of priorities really - if you yourself prioritize your defense behind other things, Trump and the USA aren’t responsible for this, and consequences of this. All of those are European problems, and you guys shouldn’t make it American. And yes - among possible consequences is “security guarantor” change. The new one will be right to the east of you, not far at all. Nobody else on a planet has capacity to be a guarantor if any kind.
 
mham001
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Sat May 18, 2019 1:08 am

anrec80 wrote:
Let’s keep this separate. Sovereignty - is your ability to choose your sources, be it Russia or someone else. Does it make sense? Apparently Europeans see it does. Russia has been Europe’s supplier for about 50 years now, and Gazprom’s volumes and market share keeps growing. Glitches and pressure drops can happen. Suppliers and intermediaries can fail here and there, this is normal thing. Russians have never turned off gas to customers who pay on time. They’ve had issues with Ukraine who has track record of siphoning transit gas. Hence the pipe.


Wouldn't "sovereignty" allow Moldavia in 2010 and Belarus in 2013 to choose their economic partners? What is your excuse for those reductions and threats of energy cutoffs?
 
WIederling
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Sat May 18, 2019 8:19 am

anrec80 wrote:
Well - under the rhetoric “we are in alliance” USA is basically providing you in Europe security and defense. All the expense of American taxpayers, without getting anything back.


ROFLMAO!

You are really living in lala land.
Things are opposite to what you present.

For one all the strife around Europe in the last 20+ years has been kicked of by US activities.
After WWII the US needed allies urgently after having majorly pi*ed of the Soviet Union.
Thus much talk about liberation and Germany being best new friend, ...
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Aesma
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Sat May 18, 2019 3:16 pm

For all his rhetoric Trump has done absolutely nothing to change the NATO situation. There are still countless US military bases in Europe, for example.

I would be glad if all that was gone, if there was no more pressure on EU states to buy US military hardware, to support Israel, etc., but that hasn't happened.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Sat May 18, 2019 7:01 pm

mham001 wrote:
Wouldn't "sovereignty" allow Moldavia in 2010 and Belarus in 2013 to choose their economic partners? What is your excuse for those reductions and threats of energy cutoffs?


Does someone prevent them from trading with EU or someone else? Even if someone does prevent them from trading with EU - it’s EU itself. 2/3 of the text of their trade agreements with EU describe quotas and restrictions on their exports to EU. Nobody else prevents. Energy cutoffs - as I said before, pay your bills on time and there will be no cut-offs.
 
anrec80
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Sat May 18, 2019 7:08 pm

WIederling wrote:
ROFLMAO!

You are really living in lala land.
Things are opposite to what you present.


I am not living in any sorts of lala-land, I am just an American taxpayer. That’s all.

WIederling wrote:
Thus much talk about liberation and Germany being best new friend, ...


Liberation - rather complex topic, really. These “liberation” concepts have too little to do with reality. In Soviet bloc (and even in USSR) there hasn’t been much teaching how to properly live the life. Even Soviet republics had more real sovereignty how to run their healthcare, education, culture, etc. than today’s EU member states. Number of directives required to comply with coming from Moscow was by far less than number of directives from Brussels to member states today. But nobody (yet) talks about any sorts of “liberation from this jail of nations” - right?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Sun May 19, 2019 12:59 pm

anrec80 wrote:
I am not living in any sorts of lala-land, I am just an American taxpayer. That’s all.


Are you surprised that people don't believe you with all your Putin biased?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: U.S. Senate Threatens Sanctions Over Russian Pipeline

Sun May 19, 2019 2:36 pm

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