RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

Perfect European Hub.

Thu Aug 30, 2001 11:55 pm

Hi:

What is the perfect European Hub? A difficult question because exist many perfect airport for be a excellent hub. Frankfurt, Paris CDG and London. And now we can add the airports of Milan and Rome with the entrance of Alitalia into SkyTeam Alliance.
Frankfurt and Paris CDG I think that airports are the perfect to connect in Europe to another destination, because there are in the center of the continent and near of many European cities in less of one hour. London has two busiest airport and the main problem for a fast connection is that you need to travel to another airport for take your next flight. I think that is one problem of British Airways connections. For example I arrive to Gatwick coming from South America and my next flight to Cairo leave from Heathrow. So I need spend part of my day travel between the London airports. Altough in Paris and Frankfurt I can connect in the same airport in a less of one hour perfect i don't need spend many hours in a airport to take my next flights.
For me it's not a problem because I love stay in the airport but for the common travelers or the businessmen it's a problem.
So I think that the Star Alliance and Skyteam have a advantage than Oneworld. The Star Alliance has hub in Frankfurt and Vienna. Sky Team has in Paris CDG, Prague and the newest hub in Milan Malpènsa and Rome. And Oneworld has hub in London (LHR and LGW) and Madrid.
I think that if London wants to be a greatest Hub in the future mustbuild a new big airport to attent the demand of the North Atlantic, European, Middle East and Asia routes.

What do you think about the perfect European hub?

RJ_Delta.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3256
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Fri Aug 31, 2001 12:09 am

I am surprised you didn't mention Amsterdam Schiphol. It has one terminal which makes it easy to change planes. Compare that to the mess you come into when you have to change terminals at LHR.

Another advantage is that Amsterdam has only one airport. Cause if you believe changing terminals is hard, changing airport is quite harder.

Also nice is the observation platform. Just in case your flight doesn't leave soon. There are also a lot of other facilities such as shops, restaurants etc. But I guess those can be found at every airport. (I am not an experienced flyer (yet?))
Attamottamotta!
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 1:18 am

Hi:

The Amsterdam's Schiphol is a great airport but you don't have many possibilities to connect to different destination like Frankfurt, Paris or London. But your opinion is right Amsterdam offer good options for the conecction, specially for european destiantion.

RJ_Delta.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4460
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 2:54 am

RJ_Delta,

What connections do CDG,LHR, and FRA have that are not at AMS.
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:21 am

Bobnwa:

I said that because in CDG; FRA and LHR you have more choice because these cities are served by more airlines than AMS. In AMS you have good optins because KLM serve a lot of number of destinations from this point.

RJ_Delta.
 
DutchWings
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 11:30 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:29 am

Almost al the European destinations that are served by CDG FRA and LHR are also served by AMS. Do you really know the airport?????
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:34 am

Dutch Wings:

So, please give the information of all airlines which fly to Amsterdam Schiphol.

RJ_Delta.
 
OO-AOG
Posts: 1395
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:24 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:40 am

Isn't AMS traffic limited due to environmental problems and even KLM studied a couple of years ago to move their hub elsewhere?
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
777-200LRpilot
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2001 7:42 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:41 am

Gotta love Schiphol to transfer.
 
tripple7
Posts: 510
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 8:53 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 6:05 am

I just have to say, that I think FRA and AMS are the best two hubs in Europe. Many destinations and both airports are easy to find your way around and have many shops and restaurants (especially Schiphol).

tripple 7
 
md-87er
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:06 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 6:31 am

You were mentioning CDG before. In my opinion CDG is not a good airport to change flights. Ok, some of the terminals might have a futuristic touch, but to transfer there.... (same probleme in LHR).
The problem comes with the size: You start with a terminal, than over the time you add a terminal building here and there and than you end up with something like CDG. And than if you want to change from one terminal to the other it takes you forever.
If you ask me, out of the big three in Europe (LHR, FRA and CDG) FRA is certainly one of the best aiports in Europe to change flights.
But if size is not important (and I am sure in most cases it is not, because you get the same connecting-destinations) than there are a lot of good "mid-size" hubs, like ZHR, BRU, VIE,....
(don't blame me for the aiports I didn't mention)
 
dabomb4944
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 4:21 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 6:52 am

Munich is a great airport and LH is bulding it into a hub
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 10:11 am

Hi:

München, Zurich, Vienna are alternative airports for connect with another flights. Lufthansa is developing a excellent hub in Munich in a very short time.
CDG probably has a similar problems like LHR because you need to travel within the terminals (Terminal 1 and Terminal 2). Only the connection in the Terminal 2 (Air France's hub) is perfect for connect.

Frankfurt is the best.

RJ_Delta.
 
triley1057
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 3:29 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 12:07 pm

AMS all the way. I do really love VIE too even though it isn't a mega hub. It's a really beautiful airport with a lot of interesting airlines from the east.
 
gmjh_air
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:37 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 2:07 pm

Don't forget Copenhagen, eventhough a bit on the outskirts of central Europe, a great airport, with all major destinations served.

The bigger players mentioned earlier LHR, FRA, CDG is too big to be convenient. AMS I've never been to but I'd guess it's the same thing there.

 
airblue
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:16 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 5:28 pm

I want add to the list Milan MXP, cause it's only one terminal for all scheduled and you don't have to walk so much, plus is in a great position for Middle-South Europe.
 
Guest

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 7:30 pm

I want to say that Arlanda ARN is a very good airport.. not much delays. Okay.. ARN doesn´t have as many Destinations as AMS or LHR but it´s the best airport in the world if you ask me.. i haven´t been to every airport in the world... but it´s so beautiful but it would be even better wih an observation deck.. i don´t know why they took it away from us... to bad..
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4460
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 9:59 pm

RJ_Delta,

AMS has service to as many countries as do LHR,FRA and CDG and by as many carriers. As well as KLM flying to all these countries, the route also has the flag carrier of that country. This would be the same as LHR,FRA and CDG. You do not see AF flying from LHR to FRA nor do you see LH flying from CDG to FCO.

Again, give me some countries that do not have the service out of AMS that the other airports have.
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 10:43 pm

Allthough I agree that AMS is a great hub (and voted the best European Airport several times) AMS is lacking some less important destinations like Ho Chi Minh, Jeddah, Sana'a, Salvador, Minsk and Samara and other small European destinations. However, FRA can't match the number of flights to/from the U.K you have at AMS.

Anyway, what's important is the number of flights and destinations (and NOT the number of airlines) and how easy it is to transfer at an airport. If you take these things into account, AMS is (almost?) equal to airports like CDG and FRA.

Regards
Laurens
 
airbus380
Posts: 1575
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:50 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:29 pm

I think either AMS or HEL. AMS has KLM there and gate room is therefore limited. But, HEL has Finnair, which isn't that big in the grand scheme of things. HEL is smaller and can easily be expanded.

A380
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16001
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:49 pm

It is clear that everyone has stated the obvious and what already exists; that of large European hubs.

AMS, CDG and LHR must have been, in days gone by, perfectly suited for an airline to build up a comprehensive network. This can be seen at CDG and LHR, both of which are now large - perhaps too big -airports. But they are, nevertheless, decent and in the main efficient hubs through which one can transfer.

As previously stated, AMS is, in comparison to CDG and LHR, smaller, and the destinations served isn't as large. But when one compares the size of the Netherlands to France and England, it becomes abundantly clear that, for such a small country, AMS is a large European airport. Add to this the fact that there is only one large terminal, connecting at AMS is perhaps a worthwhile and enjoyable experience.

I think we need to consider the other, smaller airports, and contemplate whether the possibility of serious growth is an option. Please state your case, and present an argument for and against the creation of a new hub. Try also to answer: "If [your stated city] is in such a great position to become a large hub, why hasn't it already become one?" Try to look at the various reasons.

Pe@rson, aka James, currently in Delhi.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
fa4af
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 11:42 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sun Sep 02, 2001 12:02 am

Although I agree AMS is great to transfer, thanks to its everything-under-one-roof concept, you cannot compare it to FRA, LHR or CDG. Do you realize there are over 12,000 connecting opportunities each week and each way out of CDG, against 7,000 at FRA and 4,000 at LHR ? So where does AMS fit in here ? In terms of business, plus the fact that 91% of Air France flights are non-stop, CDG is the European key. In terms of shops, distractions and viewing areas, AMS has got to be the best airport in the world...But we have to compare comparable things i.e., the hub at AMS deals with as many flights as CDG terminal 2 F, D and C, at most, in which case you would realize that transferring between those terminals at CDG is as easy if not easier than at AMS. In fact CDG is among the airports where the distance between the public area and boarding areas is the shortest. I recall walking miles at AMS...
 
fa4af
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 11:42 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sun Sep 02, 2001 12:08 am

Although I agree AMS is great to transfer, thanks to its everything-under-one-roof concept, you cannot compare it to FRA, LHR or CDG. Do you realize there are over 12,000 connecting opportunities each week and each way out of CDG, against 7,000 at FRA and 4,000 at LHR ? So where does AMS fit in here ? In terms of business, plus the fact that 91% of Air France flights are non-stop, CDG is the European key. In terms of shops, distractions and viewing areas, AMS has got to be the best airport in the world...But we have to compare comparable things i.e., the hub at AMS deals with as many flights as CDG terminal 2 F, D and C, at most, in which case you would realize that transferring between those terminals at CDG is as easy if not easier than at AMS. In fact CDG is among the airports where the distance between the public area and boarding areas is the shortest. I recall walking miles at AMS...
 
fa4af
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 11:42 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sun Sep 02, 2001 12:11 am

While I agree AMS is great to transfer, thanks to its everything-under-one-roof concept, you cannot compare it to FRA, LHR or CDG. Do you realize there are over 12,000 connecting opportunities each week and each way out of CDG, against 7,000 at FRA and 4,000 at LHR ? So where does AMS fit in here ? In terms of business, plus the fact that 91% of Air France flights are non-stop, CDG is the European key. In terms of shops, distractions and viewing areas, AMS has got to be the best airport in the world...But we have to compare comparable things i.e., the hub at AMS deals with as many flights as CDG terminal 2 F, D and C, at most, in which case you would realize that transferring between those terminals at CDG is as easy if not easier than at AMS. In fact CDG is among the airports where the distance between the public area and boarding areas is the shortest. I recall walking miles at AMS...
 
EWRspotter
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:41 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sun Sep 02, 2001 1:36 am

Fa4af,

Are you kidding? CDG is an absolute disaster for connections. In my most recent adventure a few weeks ago, I arrived at 2D via a jetway (a privilege at CDG) only to be presented wit 2 options: "Correspondence" (arrow to the left) & "Correspondence" (arrow to the right). ????? I had to know which terminal my next flight was in before I made that decision, BUT THERE WERE NO DEPARTURE MONITORS.

After following one arrow and determining it lead to customs, I followed the the second one which eventually led me to the monitors indicating I needed to head on over to 2F. Then, we had to deal with the mobs of people trying to catch a bus. After I got to 2F, I stood in line infront of the monitor displaying my destination (Istanbul) & flight number, only to be told I was in the wrong line. This is check in sir, not boarding. To board, I was to queue up infront of the monitor indicating the flight to Budapest. I suppose this is French logic at work.

I asked a AF rep, in French, why we were queuing up for the flight to Istanbul infront of the "Budapest" monitor. Why couldn't ADP just put some sort of indication that this is the Istanbul queue, rather than force us to wander aimlessly looking for our gate. "Et bien, c'est aeroport est vieux, it faut completement le refaire!" ("This airport is old, we have to completely re-do it!").

We were now in the alleged gate waiting area... or so I thought. The a/c connected to my gate's jetway didn't have winglets. Sort of odd, I thought, for an A321. Of course, after we make our way through the jetway, we are diverted to a set of stairs and end up an yet another bus. The bus travels for 10 minutes and ends up... can you guess... back at 2D. We are dumped on the tarmac, walk up the jetway stairs, and enter the A321.

This is it. Everytime I connect at CDG, I experience some nonsense like what I described. Never again. Whenever possible, I will be using either AMS and FRA. They are both excellent hubs I recommend.

mcg
 
airblue
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:16 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sun Sep 02, 2001 1:51 am

Before when it was talking about CDG Vs. AMS,it was said that AMS has one terminal and CDG has 2 terminal. So seem easyer connecting in AMS than in CDG.
But if you look better you see there aren't difference between AMS and CDG, cause if you are connecting in CDG at 99% you use AF or partners, so you use only CDG2.It seem strange you fly to CDG with LH than you connect with AF on a long-haul flight.It seem logical you leave from your first airport with AF or partners than you fly again AF or partners for your next flight.

Different if you fly BA via LHR. There maybe you have to change terminal T1>T4.

So in my opinion today the perfect European hub seem Paris CDG,
but from my little experience I like more CPH and VIE.
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sun Sep 02, 2001 2:11 am

I have to agree, that AMS is probably the best airport for a hub. Changing flights is done very easy, and the commuter ramp means that you don't need to walk miles to a gate and there can be so many more aircraft accomadated. The terminal is great, there is lots of room to expand with 4 runways and another 4 planned (well, not going to be built maybe, it was Dellaerts plan anyway  Big grin).

LHR and CDG are nightmares, i have not had good experiences with FRA either..

Regards

Dan
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sun Sep 02, 2001 3:36 am

Bobnwa:

I think taht you are right AMS is a good point for connections thanks to KLM. From AMS you travel to many destiantions specially with KLM adn his partners.

RJ_Delta.
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sun Sep 02, 2001 7:54 am

Guys:

And what about Romeand Milan's Milapensa? There are good points to connect? I ask that because these airport are the hub of the new SkyTeam's member Alitalia.

RJ_Delta
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sun Sep 02, 2001 8:32 am

> And what about Romeand Milan's Milapensa? There are good points to
> connect?

Wahahah, noooNOOOOnooo (*pant" *pant*).
Maybe there are good points to connect but two years ago I sweared not to fly via Milan Malpensa anymore. LOTS of delays, lost baggages ... Maybe things have changed but I found it almost chaotic there and as far as I know a while ago Lufthansa seriously considered not to serve Milan anymore.
And with BRU I haven't had good experiences either.

As so many others here I like Schipohl and I would choose FRA over MUC.

Regards,
NoUFO
I support the right to arm bears
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sun Sep 02, 2001 8:41 am

From my personal experience AMS is great. Lotsa space and moving walkways everywhere. LHR ist a nightmare for connections. So i'll say AMS is the best. Other than AMS i also like my home airport ZRH. It cant quite match the other hubs numbers of connection but i still like it because everything is very compact. Its currently a bit run-down but it will be completely re-done till 2003.

Regards,
Tom
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16001
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sun Sep 02, 2001 3:20 pm

Everyone is forgetting Basel (BSL). The Swiss airport is now, thanks to Crossair, a moderately large (and growing) airport, with a reasonably comprehensive network, covering a number of destinations. BSL did, as you no doubt know, have a daily non-stop flight to New York, which indicated its popularity and connection possibilities. Although not on par with AMS, CDG and FRA, BSL is clearly a 'medium hub' airport.

I read in The Sunday Times (Indian edition) this morning that SAS is looking to create a large European hub in CPH. I don't know much more than this. Does anyone else?
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
gmjh_air
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:37 pm

Copenhagen - Case

Sun Sep 02, 2001 4:57 pm

I don't know much about actual plans for Copenhagen (and I'd prefer Arlanda as SAS hub - but logic puts that option away).

Anyway, Copenhagen today a medium player, would probably fit well to be further developed as SAS main hub and an option for the Star alliance to Frankfurt, maybe then competing with LH's new Munich development.

As far as I know CPH is well positioned to grow both in movements and passengers, and as I recall space is available for further constructions of runway and terminals if needed.

The trick of course is to develop while still keeping the "small airport" feeling.

Compare the large European airports with for example Dubai, Bangkok, Singapore and we see the big difference being that LHR, FRA etc has grown for a longer period of time from small airports to the giants they are today, this has created some of the mess we see there today, while DXB, BKK and Changi has been able to plan for large scale operations already from the beginning.


As to the original question, I think people don't stop to think what is the meaning of perfect for them....

Is it as many flights to as many destinations as possible or is it a one terminal peaceful airport with connections to at least the capital city's of Europe as well as nearby smaller places?

For me, I'd definately avoid the larger airports and head for one of the smaller, convenient airports with at least a bit peace and quite.

As Pe@rson said, I'm still waiting to see some other smake their case as to why some of the smaller airports mentioned would fit for development into a larger hub.




 
airblue
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:16 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sun Sep 02, 2001 6:02 pm

>as far as I know a while ago Lufthansa seriously considered not to serve Milan anymore<

NoUfo,

I don't know where you got this information, but it's completly wrong.

The routes Milan-Germany are probably the most profitable of all LH networks.
So much business pax on every routes (both point to point Milan-Germany and connections via FRA and MUC).
The only problem that LH had in Milan, it was they want to fly out of LIN to FRA not only 2 times a day, but move there the others 5 daily flights to FRA now from MXP.

Also they fly from MXP to TXL(2 daily), DUS (4), HAM (3), HAJ (3), CGN (2), MUC (5) and STR (3).

 
petertenthije
Posts: 3256
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sun Sep 02, 2001 6:32 pm

EGGD said: "there is lots of room to expand with 4 runways and another 4 planned (well, not going to be built maybe, it was Dellaerts plan anyway)"

Four more runways planned? Forget it! It has taken years to decide to build the 5th runway (actually the 6th, there is a small runway at Schiphol East), and although Schiphol wants it badly, it isn't likely to get another runway anytime soon.

With regard to the Dellaert-plan, it was conceved in the 1950s or 1960s. A time that flying wasn't considered to be a noisy waste of space. Nowadays with our much beloved NIMBY's, this plan is absolutely out of the question.
Attamottamotta!
 
airsicknessbag
Posts: 4626
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Sun Sep 02, 2001 7:09 pm

FRA is very comfortable to connect with standard MCTs of 45 minutes and its copactness. FRA´s a bitch, however, for originating there, since they won´t let you check in at the gate any more.
MUC is nice as well, has even better MCTs of 35 minutes, but just can´t match FRA´s variety of destinations. And the terminal is like a loooong tube, you can walk there forever. And I have made a bad experience there with custom queues - try one open desk with 5 U.S. flights departing simultaneously and my Norway departure 10 minutes away due to late arrival of my first flight...

EWRSpotter, I read a report by someone who had to go through an ordeal similar to yours, at CDG, of course - only he ended up in the same plane he had arrived in...

Daniel Smile
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Mon Sep 03, 2001 2:52 am

I still consider that Frankfurt is best airport to connect although this airport is very busiest.

RJ_Delta.
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Mon Sep 03, 2001 5:14 am

Pe@rson:

Basel is perfect to connect but only for regional flights.

RJ_Delta.

 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Mon Sep 03, 2001 6:43 am

Pe@rson,
Everyone is forgetting Basel

No, I like Basel but it is still no hub compareable to FRA, BRU or CDG. Even Zurich's airport is bigger.

Airblue,
I don't know where you got this information, but it's completly wrong.

How do you know? I got this from a paper - can't recall what paper, but I don't read tabloids.

The routes Milan-Germany are probably the most profitable of all LH networks.

I don't know. "DER SPIEGEL" - ok., not my fav magazine - (maybe it was DIE ZEIT which I like much better) interviewed Lufthansa's CEO Weber a couple of months ago and mentioned Malpensa. Mr. Weber's immadiate respone was "QUIT IT!".

Regards,
NoUFO
I support the right to arm bears
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Mon Sep 03, 2001 6:49 am

Hi !!!

CDG is very bad for connecting flights, i hate this airport. I made very good experience with BRU. FRA is also ok.

Greetings from Germany

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
D-AIFB
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2001 6:35 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Mon Sep 03, 2001 8:59 am

LHR has got 4 different terminals, which makes connecting rather complicated even when you transfer within BA or Oneworld flights, the connecting takes long time, there are partly old facilities and very, very long ways to walk (in huge airports you have to walk some mile, i know, but Heathrow beats them all). On the other hand LHR can offer many, many flights and rather huge shopping areas.

CDG(2) is a new, nice and modern airport, which offers a huge number of connecting possibilities (within AF). But with the growing facilities (additional terminals like 2E/F) new problems like the very long ways etc. are appearing. But altogether, there´s no doubt, CDG is an airport with a big future. I have been only to CDG1, not to CDG2, so i can´t judge about it.

AMS has a "all in one terminal" with a huge shopping and food area. Very comfortable connections there. FRAs LH/Star Alliance parts A and B are really nice now, after the redesigning. Both offer a wide range of flight with FRA on the top.

I can´t say much about the convenience of LGW, MAD and FCO. Especially MAD will grow in its importance as a huge transit airport, of course also LGW and FCO will do.

MUC, at the moment a "medium" player in Europe, will grow up and become another big player, thanks to LHs expansion in the coming years. Despite MUC is a new, modern and very functional airport with a really nice architecture, there are some problems here at the moment due to the recently huge growth, like a overcrowded terminal in peak hours, few boarding bridges, rather few shops and restaurants within the departure area. The current terminal was designed for O&D-traffic (decentral check-in and baggage-claim) and not for a huge hub&spoke operation as LH has built up in MUC. Only one and a half year to go, then the 1.2 billion$ Terminal 2 will be opened in summer 2003, which will solve all the small problems. This facility will offer enough space to grow exclusively for the Star Alliance partners and LH. The new terminal will be designed especially for the needs of connecting passengers (shopping areas, food courts, service centers for ticketing and check-in, huge Star Alliance lounges, moving walkways, comfortable calm seating areas etc. etc.). At this time the other airlines will also get more space to grow in the half-empty "old" terminal. I´m sure, MUC will be among the top airports for connecting passengers in Europe as well as of course for the "normal" O&D pax.

Last but not least i want to mention CPH, ZRH, MXP, BRU and VIE. All are different sized hubs for their homebase carriers with VIE the smallest and ZRH the biggest.
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:24 am

Zurich Kloten is another good option to connect in Europe. It located in the middle of the continent, perfect specially when you travel by Swissair. SAir Group is formed a european network making that Zurich and Brussels are good points to connect thanks to Swissair and Sabena.

RJ_Delta.
 
teva
Posts: 1764
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 12:31 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:11 am

EWRSpotter,
when you have been told "airport is old", are you sure it was terminal 2F? It is the most recent terminal, and very well designed.

If you look at the number of connections, CDG is number 1 in Europe.
If you look at the future, CDG is the one not fully congested.
And CDG has no curfew.
And in terminal 2, you can take the TGV (high speed train) (from CDG, you are in the center of Brussels in a little bit more than 1 hour !!!!)

I only have to admit that sometimes, it can be confusing, as it is very big.
For the connection, follox the sign "correspondance". About transfer from CDG1 to CDG2 or vice versa, they are quite easy, as long as you don't go through customs: there is a direct bus on the ramp side between the different terminals.

in 2D, the 2 signs for correspondance that are mentionned on the post are followed by additional information: Schengen or non Schengen destination.

About long distances to walk, there is a project for a train as you have in FRA. (in fact, 1 was built, but never worked properly. The ADP has to rebuilt it)

And for those who don't know, there are a lot of shops and restaurants in CDG (follow the signs "boutiquaire")

Nana...
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4460
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:22 am

Teva,
What do the words "correspondance" and "Schengen" and "non Schengen" mean. When I arrived in CDG from the US I say the sign saying correspondance with an arrow pointing in two different directions. As I found out later one was to customs and the other to connect. However the sign did not say this. How does one know whether to go left or right if connecting?

Another question, when arriving at CDG on the RER train to take a flight, how do you know which airline is at what stop. There are no signs on the train or at the train platforms to tell you this. Maybe I missed them but if I did so did many other people on my train.

Thanks for your help
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:28 am

First a note to Teva: CDG has a 'curfew': The airport is not allowed to handle more than 55 Mpax within 12 months.

I have used quite many European hubs, and I am trying to state MY PERSONAL opinion about each one.

LHR - IMHO a poor airport for connection, less-than-optimal for O&D. Very crowded terminals, lots of terminals, many airlines are scattered all over them.

LGW - Nice airport for both transfering and O&D traffic. 2 terminals, good interconnection, less packed.

CDG - Sorry, nightmare. Chaoticly numbered gates, bad signs, many employees speaking hardly any English. Decent for O&D traffic, alright if you know some French (I do) and transfer within AF flights.

FRA - Good for inter-LH connections, alright for other airlines. Can get crowded at times, lots of delays in bad weather. Hopefully they get thier 4th runway. The terminal is always a contruction site.

AMS - Very good airport for whatever purpose (transfer, O&D, shopping.....)

MUC - Used to be very good for O&D, nice for connecting (one linear terminal, easy to find gates). Getting very bad during busy days, because it lacks capacity. Terminal 2 will be great, from what I have seen.

MAD - Another nightmare (didn't O&D there yet). Bad signs, endless walks, The only airport I felt REALLY unsafe in (fire extinguishers missing, no smoke detectors, locked emergency exits). Too much 'no hablo ingles'.....

ZRH - Good airport for both O&Ding and transferring, no complaints.

MXP - Never been there personally, but almost each time I collect family members coming from there, they're either late (hours!!!), or their luggage is lost....

BRU - Was there, but the airport was a single construction site, so I cant give any sensible statement.
Long ways to walk however.

SailorOrion
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Wed Sep 05, 2001 9:31 am

Teva:

I agree with you CDG is a great terminal and soon will be a biggest airport. In CDG you can choose to continue yor trip by plane, by car/bus or by train. CDG is a multiple connection terminal. Besides is the Hub of Air France a SkyTeam partner.

RJ_Delta.
 
heisan67
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 8:34 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Wed Sep 05, 2001 7:38 pm

Amsterdam - Schiphol
Copenhagen/København - Kastrup
 
TCA256
Posts: 695
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 3:59 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Wed Sep 05, 2001 8:59 pm

BRUSSELS FOREVER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Big thumbs up

ps: I know...I know, it's not the best airfield on earth
but my heart beats there !!!


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Alaerts Daniel



 
Guest

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Thu Sep 06, 2001 7:09 am

When we were in Amsterdam, we didn't have anytime to look at anything - my flight to Rome was waiting on us before we even landed, so I had to fly (no pun intended) through the airport....but this is just a suggestion:

What about Geneva, Switzerland?

Matt
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Perfect European Hub.

Thu Sep 06, 2001 9:37 am

OPTIPLEX2001:

Geneva is a Swissair's hub but I don't consider as a important point for connection. Maybe in the future Geneva would be a great european hub.

RJ_Delta.

Who is online