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Crosswind
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Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:34 am

This week's Flight International is reporting that Lufthansa is now looking to order the A330 as their latest longhaul aircraft, in preference to the B757-200ER. This comes after an internal study concluded that the B757 fleet would be too small to be economically viable i.e. the costs of the new fleet are too high when measured against the advantages the aircraft would bring.

Lufthansa wanted the B757 for use on thinner longhaul routes to the Middle East, Africa and Russia that can’t efficiently support the A340.

"The 757 is no longer a priority" was the quote from Lufthansa Senior VP Network Management, who went on to say;
" We consider the A330 to be a very attractive option for future fleet expansion"

While this appears good news for the A330, it doesn't solve a problem for Lufthansa - what are they going to replace the A300/310 with?

The B757 was an ideal replacement, and could have also been deployed on longer sectors, but Lufthansa appear to have ruled this out now. Condor's operation of the type does not appear to have swayed the decision, since from an operational standpoint it is an independent company. The A330 while being better choice for longer routes, and proving commonality with the A320 and A340 fleets, is too large for shorthaul routes. This may mean there will be no direct replacement for the A300/310 fleets, with A330s operating longer runs and Lufthansa having to used A321s at increased frequency to maintain capacity. Can't see many more options if the B757 is ruled out...

The article makes it clear an A330 order is not expected to be announced in the near future.

Flight International goes on to say that at the Lufthansa board will be asked to approve an order for 5 B747-400s, as partial replacement for the B747-200 fleet, at the same time as approving the A380 order which has been delayed by the pilots dispute.

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CROSSWIND
 
777-200LRpilot
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:46 am

744s are good airplanes.
 
RJ_Delta
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:58 am

The A330 are good option to replace the older A300. The B757-200 in Lufthansa are a very good idea, specially to drop the A321.

RJ_Delta.
 
wingman
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 5:01 am

This shouldn't surprise anyone. LH will only order from the 747 line until the 380 comes out. From that point onward, and for the next 20-30 years at a minimum, their relationship with Boeing will be dissolved. LH will not order any aircraft from Boeing when there is even a remotely suitable Airbus aircraft. LH and the German gov't have a very close and protective relationship. That relationship is predicated in large part on LH getting its 90% marketshare in the 3rd largest economy in the world (as in givernment protection of the highest order) while LH demonstartes its commitment to German industry and employment (as in "we buy produucts that support Germany"). Of course I have no proof of this but the circumstantial evidence is very strong. I mean even Australia and Canada have real airline competition with just 1/4 the population.
 
gerardo
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 5:01 am

Glad to see LH going for the A330.

Gerardo
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flight152
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 5:37 am

Thanks for your insightful post 777-200LRpilot!  Big grin  Laugh out loud

>>LH will not order any aircraft from Boeing when there is even a remotely suitable Airbus aircraft
>>LH and the German gov't have a very close and protective relationship. That relationship is predicated in large part on LH getting its 90% marketshare in the 3rd largest economy in the world (as in givernment protection of the highest order) while LH demonstartes its commitment to German industry and employment (as in "we buy produucts that support Germany").

Not really true, look what happened when Air France ordered the 777, not a airbus product.

Seems that Lufthansa is keeping that part Airbus/part Boeing fleet that so many European airlines are comming to, (BA, AF, LH etc..) they are not ALL airbus.
 
gerardo
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 5:43 am

I don't get it: When a US airline buys Boeing, it's because the aircraft is better (at least in the simple words of some people here, not all), but if a European airline buys Airbus, it's because of politics.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy Confused  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Gerardo
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SegmentKing
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 5:48 am

welcome to global politics.

American manufacturers are taking more active roles in EADS...

How many posts before this becomes an Airbus Vs. Boeing bashathon? I'm making popcorn and the couch is ready.. anyone care to join?

-nate
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
Navion
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 5:48 am

How about the A300-600R as an A300-A310 replacement?! I think airbus should update the cockpit, modify the wing a little and presto!, a good A300/310 replacement. Or they could go for the 767-200/300-400 all of which are significantly lighter (20 tonnes or more!) than the A330.
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 6:03 am

Navion,
I agree that the B767 family would make an ideal A300/310 replacement, or even better, a B757/767 combined family.

However, I can only summise that if Lufthansa has rejected the Boeing 757 because the fleet would be to small to be operated economically, then the same argument would also work against the 767.

One project Lufthansa were very interested in was a B767-300ER but with uprated engines and the B767-400ER wing, which would have been able to opearate with a full payload from Germany to the West Coast USA. While Lufthansa were enthusiastic about the aircraft, Boeing were not.

It doesn't appear Boeing have been very pro-active here in selling their aircraft, had they pushed the B757-200ER/B757-300/B767-300ER/B767-400ER hard as a package they may well have got a substantial order from Lufthansa to supply their entire mid-capacity fleet between the A321 and the A340.

Wingman,
The B747-400 order is to replace part of B747-200 fleet, with the A340-600 replacing the remainder.
The A380 is to operate on routes where demand exceeds the capacity of the B747-400.

Lufthansa intend to operate these aircraft side-by-side, so I'm not sure why you're asserting that this is political and Lufthansa will only order the B747 until the A380 is in service. A politically motivated order would have produced a contract for additional A340-600 aircraft to replace the remaining B747-200s, wouldn't it?

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 6:03 am

I made a strong statement but I stand by it. LH will not place any competitive orders with Boeing for a very long time. At best they will express an interest merely to keep Airbus honest, but we will not see them choose a product from Boeing that has a comparable product from Airbus. I personally think politics has very much to do with this, if for no other reason that LH has a virtual lock on all air travel in Germany. Of all major economies and airline markets, LH enjoys far and away the greatest marketshare of all at 91% (IATA). AF is a close second with just over 80%. BA is at just 60%. Something doesn't add up and I think it's a fair observation. And Airbus has certainly sold more aircraft in the US over the past ten years than Boeing has sold in Europe. All other factors being equal (quality and price), one would start to feel that Airbus might be enjoying a little protection on the Continent. With hundreds and hundreds of orders for Airbus products from US airlines, you certainly couldn't same the same for Boeing.
 
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Wingman

Sat Sep 01, 2001 6:15 am

Wingman
American Airlines, Delta and Continental are ordering HUNDREDS of Boeings and have not ordered a single Airbus since years. Right?. Is that political pressure?
Definately not!....there's no political pressure in the USA Big grin Big grin

Lufthansa is building mostly an Airbus fleet (with 747s as well). Is that political pressure? Of course! Airbus is selling aircrafts just because the EC's governements pays for them Big grin Big grin (God these french guys didn't understood it correctly and ordered 777s by mistake)

Nonsense isn't?  Smile

Back to the topic, I think the 757 or the 762 would just be the perfect aircraft for the market but unfortunately there's no comonalty with the rest of LH's fleet. Introducing a small fleet of a new type of aircraft would be way to expensive. The A330 is to big but seems to be the only available solution. At least it's a suitable aircraft for transatlantic as well.
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 6:32 am

Wingman wrote:
I mean even Australia and Canada have real airline competition with just 1/4 the population.
---

Actually I recently read that Lufthansa has less of a domestic market share than does Air Canada.
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wingman
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 7:27 am

OK so the recent acquisition of Canada Air makes that a stretch but my point is still valid. And I'm not talking about anything else than LH. I also never denied that CO, AA, and DL buy only Boeing. But unlike Boeing, Airbus still has a massive customer base in JB, NW, UA (world's largest Airbus fleet), AWA etc. Plus add AC if you want to talk about continental coverage. Let's face it, BA is Boeing's only significant remaining client in Europe. The rest is merely window dressing in comparison to the 300-400 firm orders rec'd by Airbus in N. America over an equivalent period. The value of commercial aircraft trading between N. America and Europe is very heavily tilted in Airbus' favor. In my opinion, two contributing facotrs to this are a very lack of political pressure on US airlines to buy Boeing and just the opposite scenario in Europe. Again, in my opinion, the figures support my opinion (in my opinion).
 
donder10
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 7:30 am

Wingman,
KLM are still pro-Boeing and I guess you could say that Thy are too.
 
OO-AOG
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 7:53 am

That's not true, not only BA. What about KLM, Easyjet, Ryanair, Happag Lloyd, Germania, Transavia, Scandinavian, Air France...all are buying a lot of Boeings. But what you need to take into account is that the US aircraft sales market is at least twice as big as the European one, and therefore an airline will never order here +250 737s or A320s as the US majors did. Southwest 737s fleet is even bigger than BA!

Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 8:34 am

I think LH will buy the A330-200, primarily for flights to Africa, western Asia and US East Coast smaller cities.

That means don't expect A332's to show up at places like JFK, ORD, MIA, LAX and SFO. In short, SFO will still see LH 747-400's and A340-300's for the foreseeable future, unless LH really wants to fly the A380-800 on the FRA-SFO route, given that LH may be ready to buy 15 A388's.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sat Sep 01, 2001 8:27 pm

well, i highly doubt that LH would ever be willing to replace the a300s/310s by increasing frequency and utilizing a321s.
LH´s main hub at FRA suffers from severe capacity constraints and replacing bigger planes with smaller ones does not appear to be an option.

i do agree that a combinded fleet of 757s/767s would make the ideal replacement for the a300/310s.

i also once toyed around with the idea about the 757 and 767 (the 757-300 and the 767-400 to be exact)replacing LH´s fleet of a300/310 and also being a suitable aircraft for the routes to the near east...
the 757-300 would mainly replace the a300/310s whereas some few 764s would complement the european fleet. addidionally, the 767-400s, similar in capacity to the a330-200, could fly the routes to the CIS, africa and the near east where the a340s might be less profitable.
but if already the introduction of just 757s wouldn´t be viable, than it´s obviously not viable if you introduce two types to the fleet, making both fleets even smaller. granted, the common cockpit layout could offset some training costs, but that would be it.

i do think that the a330s seem to be a better fit for the longhaul fleet, but according to previous LH statements, they´re too big and too heavy for the shorthauls. this attitude may have changed, i don´t know.
if LH would look for a single type to replace the a300s/310s and do some medium/longhauls than i´d say the 753/764 might work. but that is just my opinion, and the guys at Lufthansa certainly know better than i do.


a market-share of 91%????? i don´t want to disregard IATA statistics, but what about Deutsche BA?
i know that with the acquisition of Eurowings LH would have about 70-80% market share, but not more than 90%.
still, 70% is an awful lot and germany certainly needs an additional domestic carrier...

rgds
daniel
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sun Sep 02, 2001 12:37 am

Lufthansa going for the A330-200/300 powered by GE CF6s is a great idea because it will have the same cockpit commonality as the A340 so Lufthansa aircrews can fly both aircraft and share CF6 spare engine components with their other wide-body aircraft.
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Sun Sep 02, 2001 8:51 pm

Lufthansa may equally go for the Rolls Roye Trent for their A330s, after all that engine powers their A340-600 fleet, or will do when they enter service.

Lufthansa isn't big on engine commonality - their A319/320 fleet have CFM56 engines while their A321 fleet has IAE V2500 engines.

Condor, part owned by Lufthansa operated an all PW2040 powered B757-200 fleet, but launced the B757-300 with Rolls Royce engines - despite being the launch customer and having a free choice because both the RR and PW powerplants are carried over from the -200.

Finally, something I missed from the article,
The expected A330 order will be for around 15 aircraft, when it is placed, which won't be in the near future

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Navion
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GE On The A330

Mon Sep 03, 2001 4:58 am

Why would Lufthansa go for Rolls engines on it's A330's when the vast majority of it's fleet is GE?! Why try to be common with a few A346's when you have so many durable, efficient, and dependable GE's already on line? The CF6-80E on the A330 has the BEST fuel efficiency and allows for a GREATER payload than either the Pratt or RR offerings. I must admit I don't know why the GE engine isn't more in vogue. Simply put, you cannot do better performance wise than the GE on the A330. My sources for this information are Air Transport World statistics and Aviation Week & Space Technology statistics. And TEDSKI, I agree with your statments if the 767's aren't being considered. However as you have seen in my post above, the 767's haul as much but weigh 20 (yes that's 20) metric tonnes less (with load). I think that's why the A331 didn't come to pass as it was just too heavy with all of that A330 structure.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Mon Sep 03, 2001 6:12 am

A couple of comments:

LH will continue to look at both Boeing and Airbus products for as long as all of these companies exist: Airlines do not want to be reliant on one manufacturer and having a good relationship with both Boeing and Airbus ensures that they will be able to purchase aircraft as the best price. Monopolies do not work for anyone.

LH, a couple of months ago, said that they were going to consider the A330 and planned on converting some A340 options to the A330 series. Made sense, the longer range and capacities of the A340 are not needed for many of LH's routes, such as those to the mideast and some transatlantic service.

LH is having trouble finding a A300/A310 replacement for European and domestic German routes. The A330, in its existing and proposed forms is too much aircraft and thus they took a look at the 752 and 753 which also do not seem to be the answer. As LH just took 2 used A300s, this type is likely to be around for a while and maybe the A310s will be disposed of. Also remember a company the size of LH is really not interested in operating only a few (5 to 10) of a type, so the 757 alternative was a difficult one.

 
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Crosswind
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Mon Sep 03, 2001 7:21 am

Why would Lufthansa go for Rolls engines on it's A330's when the vast majority of it's fleet is GE?!
------
For the same reason they chose the IAE V2500 for their A321 fleet over the CM56 which already powered their A319s and A320s!

Seriously though, the GE CF6 on the A330 appears to be an engine that's good on paper, but airlines have been very reluctant to order it.

Just did a quick check of the Jet Aircraft Census for A330-200 aicraft in service or for imminent delivery and found the following;

There are;
50 Rolls Royce powered A330-200s with Air Transat, Airtours, British Midland, Corsair, Edelweiss, Emirates, Gulf Air, JMC, Monarch and Premiair

30 Pratt and Whitney powered A330-200s with Air Afrique, Air Luxor, Austrian, Korean Air, LTU, Novair, TAM and Sabena

9 General Electric powered A330-200s with Qatar Airways, Aer Lingus and Canada 3000.

Considering the GE CF6 is the lead engine on the A300/310/B747/767, it is difficult to explain why most airlines have rejected it for their A330 fleets apart from the figures not telling the whole story about the performance of the engine...

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CROSSWIND
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Lufthansa Dumps B757 For A330, But Orders 747-400s

Mon Sep 03, 2001 9:21 pm

well, silly as it may seem, the main reason why LH has IAE engines on its a321s whereas the a319s/a320s/737s are powered by CFMs is because LH is the biggest airline in aircraft maintenance and by having IAE engines in its fleet LH could easily increase the maintenance workers´ experience regarding a different engine manucfacturer...
there are certainly other factors contributing as well, but i think that was the main reason...

rgds
daniel




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