airbus380
Posts: 1575
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:50 am

This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 1:59 am


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Toni Marimon



Why did this 738 take its gear up so soon and not rotate more?

Airbus380
 
raggi
Posts: 879
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2000 4:34 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 2:01 am

I think it was a delivery flight fly-by to show off the new aircraft and new colors.


raggi
Stick & Rudder
 
FBU 4EVER!
Posts: 980
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:53 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 2:15 am

The caption of the photo says it all.A low pass upon delivery.

I suppose the pilots have pulled a circuit breaker or two to silence the GPWS!  Laugh out loud
"Luck and superstition wins all the time"!
 
sxmarbury33
Posts: 405
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 5:41 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 3:57 am

I dont know why there is a flap and gear inhibit on the GPWS. I mean i could understand the thinking behind it but if you know that you are doing a flyby cant you just ignore the warnings. Also donsnt it inhibit the sink rate woop woop pull up warnings i might want some of those depeneding on what i was doing.
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 4:07 am

Flap override is available on the Dash 8 for training purposes, allowing flapless landings without that annoying voice. Other a/c have various mode inhibit switches, but no one switch inhibits all modes, unless you call the circuit breaker a switch! BTW, I don't recall ever seeing a gear override for the gpws. Gear warning horns, yes, but not gpws.
 
FBU 4EVER!
Posts: 980
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:53 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 4:11 am

Of course you can ignore the warnings,but they are loud and very annoying and there will be several modes working to get your attention,too.
"Luck and superstition wins all the time"!
 
airlinelover
Posts: 5287
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:03 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 4:26 am

That photo is cool.. Like they say.. Reach out and touch someone!

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
jabpilot
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 1999 8:38 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 4:27 am

Low enough?
Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Baldur Sveinsson

Jeff

 
PHLflyer
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2001 12:11 pm

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 4:29 am

Doen't anyone read the captions of pictures they put in their thread?

"Delivery arrival of the first aircraft in the new colours, making a low altitude pass above one of the runways at PMI"
 
Guest

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 8:53 am

Yeah you wish that Islandsflug shot was real. Tell me how the horizontal elevator casts a shadow, but not the rest of the plane on the ground? If it was real that plane would have you running for the port-o-potty cuz you would have just crapped your Hanes.
 
Guest

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 11:41 am

It looks like it didn't get enough wind beneath it's wings, not allowing the bird to get up with enough velocity.
 
Big777jet
Posts: 2682
Joined: Mon May 01, 2000 10:52 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 11:49 am

On December 1, 1984. I was the first passenger on Delta's Boeing 757 in Birmingham, AL. Pilots wanted to fly low pass on the runway before climb out to Atlanta.
It was fun! I never forget about the adventure first flight 757.

Big777jet

 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 12:20 pm

The only thing I'd question is the altitude of the "low pass". The AF A320 that crashed was supposed to make a "low pass" at 100 feet, which the pilot thought he was at. He was shocked to see on the video that he was about 30 ft off the ground. Seems to me the plane in the first post is a tad lower than he should be.
 
dash8tech
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 1999 8:40 pm

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 1:48 pm

Being an NG 737 the 800 may have the capabilty of Aural Wanring override. In the CRJ 700 and Q400 you can turn off all aural warnings.

Cheers.
 
airbus380
Posts: 1575
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:50 am

TO: Airbus390

Thu Sep 06, 2001 10:59 pm

What are you talking about?
 
Guest

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 11:22 pm

PHL you can see the shadow in that picture. take a second look!
Iain
 
rapo
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 12:04 pm

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Thu Sep 06, 2001 11:50 pm

Here's the full Islandflug sequence.

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Baldur Sveinsson



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Baldur Sveinsson



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Baldur Sveinsson



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Baldur Sveinsson



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Baldur Sveinsson



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Baldur Sveinsson



Look how soon after t-o the gear comes up - WOW!

Me? I think it's real.

rapo
 
turbulence
Posts: 876
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 1999 1:33 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Fri Sep 07, 2001 1:19 am

Bigmikenice:
The shadow of the Islandsflug plane is not the closer black asphalt. It is a little further, and if you open the large photo and look carefully enough, you'll see the perfect shadow of the whole airplane.

Goingboeing:
The 320 that crashed was not supposed to do a low pass. Have a look at the video: it has the gear down, and a landing attitude (nose up). The low passes (exhibition ones) must be with the gears up, in order to avoid wheel contact with the ground, and for granting an optical effect. Otherwise, from afar, people would think the low pass was a "touch&go" instead. Also, low passes are flown horizontally, for pilots and tails "health".
The 320 crash was a misprogrammed autoland.

Discussions on "low passes" have been held here. The "secret", if any, for doing them is the "ground effect". The wings lift the plane, but below a minimum altitude, the airflow under the wing gets "compressed" between the wing and the ground, thus increasing lift substantially.
The next time you fly, pay attention to something: a very short while after the main gear lifts, a slight sensation of "descent" can be felt. It is the critical moment when, increasing the distance from the asphalt, the "ground effect" is lost, resulting in a slightly lesser sustemptation. As far as I understood, this is a critical moment strongly related to Vr (therefore Vr being always higher than stall speed, if I am not mistaken), and taken care of, because below a certain speed, the airplane can get airborne without being able to keep up there and fall down again. Maybe a pilot could enlighten us better about this very special moment. In that other forum, someone wrote that the airplane would be able to fly a little sooner than it really does, but it is "kept" on the ground until the lift generated by clear speed is higher than the lift generated by the combination of speed and ground effect.
This is also why Formula 1 cars carry inverted wings: they would not fly because they do not have the proper propulsion, but they would lift from ground, due to speed alone.
The Europeans will remember the Ford Sierra (predecessor of today's Ford Mondeo in Europe/Contour in USA), the 1986 model SR Cosworth, 2door version, and the huge aileron mounted on the trunk, (the 4door's aileron was quite smaller). By then I was a mechanic at the biggest Ford workshop in BCN, and drove the first one in the whole Spain. OK. Without that aileron, the Sierra Cosworth was unable to go above 180 km/h (115mph) safely because the rear wheels were loosing the capacity of solidly transmitting 220 HP to the ground...
Back to the topic, and not being too sure if I made my explanation clear enough, this ground effect is the reason why flying so low is safe: the ground effect prevents the airplane from falling lower than it is.
Back in time, there was also a post about "ekranoplanes"

See that the "thing" is not touching the water, in spite of what, the water below is waving and being sprayed. See also how small the "wings" are.

wich are boats that "sail" at 500 km/h (315 mph) or "fly" at few feet from the water, the truth being that they do not do one thing neither the other: they take advantage of ground effect.

Hope I helped...

Best turbulences
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Fri Sep 07, 2001 1:27 am

Turbulence - I got my info from this site:

http://www.airdisaster.com/investigations/af296/af296.shtml

And the section entitled "The Captains Version" states:

"Captain Asseline flew the aircraft manually. He had been instructed by Air France to overfly the airfield at 100 ft above ground. When he increased throttle to level off at 100 ft, the engines did not respond. So after some seconds he got worried and thought there was something like a short-circuit in the completely computerized throttle control. So he pulled the throttle back all the way and forth again. By that time the aircraft had touched the trees.

After the accident, Captain Asseline was very astonished when he saw on an amateur video tape that the gear was only 30 ft above ground when the aircraft was passing over the runway. He affirms the altimeter of the Airbus A320 indicated 100 ft. "

I dunno, maybe that report was wrong.
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Fri Sep 07, 2001 3:26 am

Those low passes still look very dangerous in my opinion
NO URLS in signature
 
turbulence
Posts: 876
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 1999 1:33 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Fri Sep 07, 2001 9:11 pm

Goingboeing:
I have heard and read many negative comments about airdisaster, mainly accusing them of beeing too "sensationalist" about crashes. I don't trust them too much.
But the facts are clear: compare the attitude of the airplanes of two photos above with the one of the 320 video. Do not match AT ALL.

Tbar220:
Low passes are done every while (not every day), without passengers. Writing "safe" as I did does not necessarily mean "appropriate for commercial use".

Best turbulences
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Fri Sep 07, 2001 9:23 pm

Hell, If that Islandsflug airplane was a Piper or a Cessna I would say that he was practicing a soft field takeoff.

For those of you not in the know, for a soft field takeoff you hold the stick back untill you get airborne, Not at a set airspeed. This lightens the weight on the tires as quickly as possible and keeps you from digging into the surface you are lifting off from.

As soon as you break the surface you push the stick slightly forway to lower the nose as you gain airspeed. This step is needed because you are right on the stall margin when you lift off with this technique.

The fastest way to do this is to get the airplane level as quickly as possible, because of ground effect increasing with airspeed the airplane will want to climb. So the nose down pitch keeps this from happening allowing the speed to come up faster.

It is pretty fun to do this when you take off.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
hkgspotter1
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:43 pm

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Fri Sep 07, 2001 9:50 pm

Very cool photo !!! (Islandsflug)
 
CV990
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Sat Sep 08, 2001 1:44 am


Hi!

I remember a few years ago reading an article about a Northwest 707 making a very low flypast in a way that it flipped small airplanes that where parked in a grass runway, that was really not a low but a "mow" flypast!!!
I think with a 737 it makes a nice effect but it doen'st really put your addrenaline pumping, with a 707 or a widebody I would like to experience that!!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
gkirk
Posts: 23346
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: This Is Too Low - Rotate, Rotate!

Sat Sep 08, 2001 4:28 am

The a/c was on its delivery to AEA and so flew along the length of Palma's runway 24R I think. This is customary with every new a/c arriving in Spain I believe.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: avi8tir, Baidu [Spider], copa330200, deltal1011man, Dublinspotter, Gemuser, greg3322, hOMSaR, moo, overcast, qf15, qf789, Rmjhjr, Someone83, StTim, toltommy, VirginFlyer, xiaotung, ZKOJH and 314 guests