Guest

Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:32 pm

I think all airlines should now carry a conceiled pistol in the cockpit at all times. Of course it would be locked and only accessible by the captain. Apparently it wasn't to hard to get knives on board but it would have been a real challenge to get a gun on board. A pilot could have easily defeated a hijacker with just a knife if the pilot would have access to a pistol that would be required. What do you all think?
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:34 pm

Yes....

Or at least pilots and flight crew should have the option of carring their personal piece....

Actually I know quite a few bush pilots that carry their weapons on their aircraft during paying trips. Until last year it was part of the required survival kit up here.

I bet it would cut down on air rage incidents too.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:47 pm

no
the goal should consist in avoiding that any terrorist could enter the cockpit. the method: skymarshalls, introduced by El-Al 31 years ago.
the pilot must be imperatively out of reach; he has to fly the plane! he can't simultaneously fight with terrorists in his cockpit!
 
markk
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RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:53 pm

What happens when this weapon is taken by force. Lets think about this. A lot of the big birds are flown by older very intelligent and benevolent men and women.. It takes seniority and long service to sit in the left seat of a 67 or 77 or 340.. I would say for them to be able to use a handgun sucesfully given their benevolence would be 50/50 at best. I don't think this is the answer.

Plus if the handgun was locked away what makes you think they could get it unlocked and ready for use faster then typing in a 4 digit transponder code??
 
zrb2
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RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Fri Sep 14, 2001 12:05 am

Either no one should carry weapons on planes or everyone should! Sky Marshalls would be the best response to this. Ok so spend millions of tax dollars to fund an agency to handle this law enforcement task. It would be better than some of the programs they waste money on. I would not only put one on each flight but two men! In between flights, instead of just sitting around reading the USA Today or drinking coffee they could walk around the terminal looking for suspicious activity or even walk around the bowels of the airport to keep an eye on workers too.
 
airbuspilot
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RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:11 am

The only option we as pilots/aircrew have in my opinion are indeed the skymarschalls!!Incignito civilian dressed guys carrying weapons.

The disadvantages of weapons in the cockpit are:
1) a bullet in a pressurised aircraft is very dangerous
2)What if the piece end up in the wrong hands
3)It will not take long before proffessional terrorists will know where it is hidden;

The skymarschalls system really works good. I think every airline should have them on board!

To all of you back there in the states....hang in there.!!!
 
Guest

RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:48 am

guns and aircraft DO NOT GO TOGETHER!

Fire a gun at 30000feet and you´re as gone as the WTC.

Skymarshals? Forget it they wil only excalate violence.

They dont work on ELAL - what work on ELAL is increased security on the ground.
However that wont do on all flights! Why?
Try to implement that on all flights and you will se the end to aviation as we know it. The extended checkin times will mean that aviation is only viable on long flights.

The sollution is a higher level of airport security - including extenede staff checks!

Anyway who is to say that a skymarshal couldn´t hijack a plane?

 
Guest

RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Fri Sep 14, 2001 2:06 am

KRP
there are armed security officers onboard every El-Al flight.
no security measure can work 100%; once an airplane is flying, there can be no external aide to it if a terrorist or a mentally ill person (remember BA in South Africa) wants to take control. There MUST be skymarshalls.

If only there had been well trained security officers in those terrible flights, this annihilation attack couldn't have taken place.
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Fri Sep 14, 2001 2:37 am

Is it true that Aeroflot pilots used to carry pistols in the cockpit?
 
Guest

RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Fri Sep 14, 2001 3:33 am

Iran and Isreal are very tough on hijackings ( seperate topic for discussion ).

One of the features when boarding Iranian planes or Israeli planes ( I have not been on one ) is that you will see heavily armed paramilitary guards.

No need for concealment! Yes you don't want shootings on planes but at least you could have averted planes being used as missiles.

Furthermore, start seperating the cockpit and the pilot's
rest areas from the rest of the plane, and put in an armored partition.

Put the guards on the passenger side of the door.

Put in place a STRICT protocol for opening the door to the cockpit.

That will not solve all of the problems but it will be part of a security solution
 
Guest

RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Fri Sep 14, 2001 6:22 pm

toda....

I know ELAL carries guns on their flights - ONE MAJOR REASON not fly them!

My point above was that - it is not the guns that make ELAL safe - it is the increased security on ground that makes them safer.

GUNS DO NOT BELONG ON PLANES
 
Guest

RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Fri Sep 14, 2001 9:53 pm

I'm sorry but your point is not correct, KRP:

- even increased security on the ground is not enough to be sure that the pax cabin will be a safe area...

- skymarshals have also a dissuasive effect. And they have been very useful at least twice with El-Al: a) in Feb 1969 at ZRH, a guard managed to neutralize a group of Palestinian terrorists who were firing on a 720 while taxiing to the runway; the pilot was killed, but the plane didn't explode. b) in September 1970, they prevented Palestinian terrorists to skyjack a 707 on its way to New York; on the same day, 4 other airliners were skyjacked.

- And, IF ONLY skymarshals had been in these 4 planes! the most atrocious catastrophy wouldn't have been possible.


"ONE MAJOR REASON NOT TO FLY THEM"; it's really ununderstandable, especially 3 days after September 11th.
 
Guest

RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Sat Sep 15, 2001 12:42 am

I did not claim that increased security will make the cabin a safe area. I did claim that having guns in cabins (in flight) is a mortal danger.

So I still would never dream of flying ELAL - the guns being one reason
 
fspilot747
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RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Sat Sep 15, 2001 12:52 pm

The thing I notice that I think is so ridiculous is how thin and weak the flight-deck doors are. They look like they can be opened with a fist. What they need are much stronger doors, maybe even made with titanium or steel. The knobs on the flight-deck doors are pathetic as well. A hijacker can just shoot the knob and open the door. Solution: Bulletproof doors. The pilots should be the safest people on the plane. As much as I love to peer into open flight-deck doors from my seat, I would readily give that up for a safer flying environment. Heres what it should be like. The flight crew gets in the plane, closes the door, and locks it. The door should be bullet proof. No way anyone can enter without a code, which only the crew and special ground staff know. If flight attendents have the code or key, they can be forced into giving it to any hijackers. Only in this way can the pilots be safe, and the passengers.

The aircraft frame should be reinforced, to handle certain gunshots without causing the plane to explode or bust a hole. This way, there can be an armed marshal on board without the risk of his gun blasting the plane out of the sky. But lets first start with the basics. Strengthen the damn cockpit doors for god sakes, they are so weak. Just my two cents  Smile.

kind regards,
-FSPilot747
 
srbmod
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RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Sat Sep 15, 2001 4:48 pm

One problem with a heavier duty door is the possibility of in a decompression situation, the difference in cabin pressure in the cabin and on the flight deck could cause an explosion. Firearms are too dangerous at 30,000 feet; my suggestion is to carry some type of stun gun, something that can subdue a hijacker so that they could be restrained and the flight be diverted to the nearest airport to drop the hijacker off.
 
AlaskaMVP
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RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Sat Sep 15, 2001 4:54 pm

> guns and aircraft DO NOT GO TOGETHER!

> Fire a gun at 30000feet and you´re as gone as the WTC.

Hmm, is that true? I've been told that the small hole from a gun is unlikely to cause immediate catastrophy unless it hits a vital control line (and even those are all reduntant). Remember, modern jetliners have landed successfully with many types of holes, around windows, doors, and even in the top of the plane. A bullet hole will let the air out, either slowly or rapidly (if it shatters a window perhaps), which will require descent to lower altitudes or the use of supplemental oxygen...

I've also been told that El Al does provide pilots with guns, which I think is wise. Even the "oldest and most benevolant" pilot will be willing to stick a pistol in the face of a hijacker breaking into the cockpit and blow his head off. At close quarters accuracy should be very good even for aging pilots!

Cabin doors haven't been reinforced so that Pilots can kick the doors open when trapped in crashes. Boeing has already done prototypes but no-one was ever interested, until now....
 
SouthRebels
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RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Sat Sep 15, 2001 4:57 pm

Skymarshalls will not work to prevent a tragedy as we have just seen. How many would you put on the plane? There were four to six hijackers that could have easily defeated the skymarshall. A similiar dicussion came up in the last two years at school regarding school safety. It's an unfortunate and unavoidable fact that in a free and democratic society these types of incidents will not be stopped once they gotten to a certain point. What I mean by this is that, for example, once the plane has taken off with the hijackers the skymarshalls are in all likelyhood not going to stop it. The key is prevention and stopping it before it ever gets to that aircraft. That is were the balance of freedom and safety comes into play. The question is how much freedom and convienence we are, as a society, willing to give up in order to be, or at least create a feeling, of complete safety. We will never be, as sad as it is, completely safe from all acts of violence.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Sat Sep 15, 2001 10:21 pm

No. i dont think so.

If a hijack does happen, the pilot must not succumb to the temptation to pick up a fight with the hijackers. The responsibility of the flight and its pax are on him.

Giving him a gun would only encourage him to pcik up a fight, when that is the last thing he should be doing.
 
DeltaRules
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RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Sat Sep 15, 2001 11:23 pm

They should have had guns for pilots from the start, so hijackings could be prevented (or at least tried to be stopped.) Bringing Sky marshals back is a pretty good idea, but how many would each plane carry? If there are 7 hijackers, and 1 sky marshal...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Tazers would be a good idea for the cockpit if they wouldn't allow guns.

Just my ideas.

DeltaRules
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
Klaus
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SouthRebels

Sun Sep 16, 2001 1:27 am

SouthRebels: Skymarshalls will not work to prevent a tragedy as we have just seen. How many would you put on the plane? There were four to six hijackers that could have easily defeated the skymarshall.

As much as I abhor free proliferation of guns to everyone, I think that police (and sky marshals would have to be police) are among the few places where guns can make sense.

Please note that all the hijackers had were knives. The viability of their plan would have been severely affected if:

- The cockpit doors would have been a difficult barrier.
- They had to expect one or several armed plain-clothes sky marshals among the passengers.
- They had known those to be armed with a gun (apparently, there are guns with specialized ammunition which can´t penetrate the pressurized fuselage).
- The flight systems had collision-prevention systems or other tight flight envelope protection built in (speculative right now; but I´m sure that´s one thing that´ll come up).
 
Guest

RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Mon Sep 17, 2001 3:08 pm

If,if,if ????
If my mum was a duck she would be able to fly and swim.The problem will not be solved by having Guns in the cockpit or marshalls on the planes.first of all for non- flying people, do you really think that when we are up flying we have nothing else to do but sit there and wait for some armed guy to bust trough the door and skyjack us?? Second you have to see everything in the right context.Even with a gun in the cockpit what makes you think any pilot would be able to reach it without getting shot first? If you are not expecting a situation to happen you are verry verry slow to react unless properly trained for it.Thats why we spend so manny hours in a simulator learning to deal with all kind off failures.But they are all aircraft related.Now unless you have had some lawenforcement or military training, your first reaction ain't gonna be to reach for the gun when some lunatic comes bursting trough the cockpit door waiving a gun or a knife, especially not if you are performing opperational duties.On the topic of turning the cockpit into fort Knox, untill last tuesday hijacking was a bussines of getting other terrorists out of jail or making some political statement, but noone in his right mind could believe anybody capable of what happened tuesday.So what if they start killing anybody on the plane because you don't wanna open your door and they can't break it down. So you landed the plane safely ,that is if they don't crash it first,see you don't have to be in the cockpit if you really want the plane to go down, but you landed safely everybody's dead including the terrorists because they usually shoot themselves in the end.Who do you think will congratulate you for landing a plane full of dead passengers? Not their families.I for one would rather open the door and see where it goes from there.There has to be a major improvement regarding airline and airport security but putting guns on planes is not the right solution, it's just adding another hazard to an already fragile environment, which we tend to forget with today's modern and comfortable planes.So take care y'all and be safe.
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Mon Sep 17, 2001 3:20 pm

I agree that one of two things has to be done. Either have an armed sky marshall on board every flight(not random) or arm the flightcrew with a gun. If the gun is in a locked box stowed under the captains seat for example it should be ok. Ok guns and pressurised a/c don't mix but surely the outcome will be nowhere near as tragic as what happened last week and even if depressurisation does take place then descend immediately(rubber bullets could prevent this). Perhaps even the flightdeck door should be made thicker and out of a very resistant material to prevent forced entry!
 
zanadou
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RE: Pilot Pistols In The Cockpit

Mon Sep 17, 2001 5:39 pm

Somebody said:
...They had known those to be armed with a gun (apparently, there are guns with specialized ammunition which can´t penetrate the pressurized fuselage).

Yep: http://www.safetyslug.com

--->Zanadou!  Big thumbs up

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