Guest

Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Fri Sep 14, 2001 12:10 pm




National Airlines is now in a world of trouble. Their Letter Of Credit expires in early October, and with the major shutdowns they are lossing mega $$$. Also I don't think anyone would want to fly this airline because of the 757-200 Fleet ( Which was targeted by the hijackers ) , also since N7 only flies long haul flights they have a lot of fuel ( Another factor targeted by hijackers). They also have a hub in Vegas a big city. I would not be suprised if who ever these people are hit Las Vegas or a another West Coast city.

P.S. I hope All Of You In NY Are Allright. I My Self Have Lost Friends And Family.


 
akelley728
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Fri Sep 14, 2001 12:14 pm

Umm, why did you say National AND JetBlue?

Youu don't mention JetBlue in your post, and they don't have the financial problems National has.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Fri Sep 14, 2001 12:47 pm

Not only has jetBlue fared REMARKABLY well during this tragedy, so far, but they are offering heavily discounted tickets to family of the WTC victims so they can get to New York City. Not only is that an incredible gesture (and, to be entirely honest, on a marketing stand point, that will get them customers and attention, though that is not the point), that shows they care about thier home town and the victims, but they would not be doing it if they could not afford not to. N6 is not your typical start-up. They actually have money to spend and waste.
a.
 
ryu2
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:03 pm

What??? National flies many short-haul flights, like LAS-LAX. And why would someone avoid on an aircraft type simply because it was the same type of plane used by terrorists?
 
padcrasher
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:15 pm

In what respect has JB fared remarkably well during the time that they were grounded?
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:15 pm

Defunctairline, my heartfelt sorrow and prayers are with you and your family.

However, as noted above JetBlue will come through this fine, as will Southwest. They're financially flush. National was already in bankruptcy. They may well suffer the same fate as Midway.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
padcrasher
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:26 pm

Flush? As in flush with cash? I was under the impression that JB had gone through it's start up funding.
 
srbmod
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Fri Sep 14, 2001 4:49 pm

JetBlue reported profits (which many privately held companies usually don't report to media outlets) ahead of schedule, and still are maintaining profitability. National is in CH. 11, and considering the industry as a whole has lost well over $500 million dollars because of the ground stop, no telling how much these financially troubled carriers have lost. It would not be a big surprise if National is still flying a month from now. People will be afraid to fly for who knows how long, and people will also try to avoid flights on 757s and 767s just because those types were used in the attacks, and on top of that, many people flying transcontinential flights my choose to fly multileg flights as opposed to nonstops for the same reasons as they may avoid 757s and 767s. The ground stop killed Midway, and will more than likely kill National. And I think perhaps Vanguard may be on the critical list because losses due to the ground stop as well.
 
Fleet Service
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Fri Sep 14, 2001 5:10 pm

WN may well come thru this in decent shape, jetblue on the other hand is another story.One of their core routes, JFK-FLL is historically a leisure market, if leisure traffic levels continue to erode will they remain "Flush"?
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
Guest

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Fri Sep 14, 2001 5:15 pm

Fleet service - leisure market = low yield. It won't make any major difference to them. It's the high yield business traffic that airlines are much more concerned about!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Fri Sep 14, 2001 9:14 pm

The NYC-Miami markert (MIA/FLL/JFK) is highly business too, but MIA get's the buisness passengers (mainly AA), while FLL get's the lesiure passenger (WN, JB, DLX). Trust me, you won't many see flights end on this route, maybe one or two, and it is not as low yield as one may think. This is the most traveled city pair in the US. JB will do FINE. They average 95% loads on FLL-JFK on six, soon eight, daily fligts, and have plans to start FLL-LGB next year. Yes, traffic will drop off for a few months, but everyone, including AA and UA, will recover, with few exceptions (maybe National).
a.
 
SegmentKing
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Fri Sep 14, 2001 10:18 pm

Ah, but the Florida - East coast yields are PATHETIC!! I can book you a last minute fare from Palm Beach to Newark for about $220 ONE WAY.... versus other markets that charge 4 and 5 times that.... 14 day fares almost ALWAYS seem to hover around $110 - $150 round trip.....
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
KROC
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Fri Sep 14, 2001 10:27 pm

I seriously doubt that the aircraft type will pprevent a person from flying. The common travler doesn't know what kind of plane they are flying on. It doesn't really matter. Also, the 757/767 were targeted because they were large aircraft fully fueled for a transcon flight. A terrorist will use whatever aircraf they can get ahold of, if they want to.
 
Sinlock
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Sat Sep 15, 2001 12:31 am

Keep this in mind....

During the Groundstop airlines were not makeing money...but they were also not spending money ether....(well not much)

Also... I don't think that most pax can tell the diffrence between a 757 and a A340.
 
N509JB
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines

Sat Sep 15, 2001 12:52 am

Please dont associate jetBlue with National. We are nothing alike.

No doubt, this will be a challenge for us, and the entire industry. I'd like to thank you all for yer support. It helps me continue to be optomistic about the future.

N
 
airbus380
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:38 am

jB is not going anywhere for a long time!
 
MAH4546
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Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:47 am

Excluding West Palm Beach and Islip, there are about 60 (I think actual number is 56) flights a day between South Florida and the New York City area, and rarely do those flights leave without a pretty full aircraft. Yields might not be the best in the world (though please look at how much it would cost to fly MIA-LGA last minute), but it is America's most popular city pair and will remain that. And we're not talking filling up 737s here. AA runs 757s, A300s, and 767s on this route with little, if any, trouble filling up business. DL and Pan Am used to fly 747s on MIA-JFK, and Tower Air filled up 747s everyday on MIA-JFK until they went under. FLL-JFK is the route that keeps jetBlue running.
a.
 
lmml 14/32
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Sat Sep 15, 2001 3:03 am

Why would people not fly B757/767 or other fully fuel laden flights? There is nothing wrong with the planes, and the fuel is a neccessary evil, for lack of a better expression. The problem is the people with twisted minds whom we can all run into everyday without knowing. How many murderers have you sat next to in a bus or train or restaurant?
 
doug_or
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Sat Sep 15, 2001 3:11 am

Sinlock- not spending money!?!?!??! Fine, the grounded aircraft weren't burning gas. many will have larger than usual ramp fees (espeicaly cargo airlines). Pilots and FAs at oustation will still be paid whatever hourly bonusus their airline gives for this. payments on aircraft and leases still will be due. salaried employees still get paid, as will the hourly people working phones and reservations desks. In the coming week or two, airlines will have to shell out a LOT for overtime, and probably burn a decent amount of gas flying empty planes into position. Airplanes on the ground DO cost money, thats why airlines strive for high utilization.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
D L X
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Sat Sep 15, 2001 3:21 am

"During the Groundstop airlines were not makeing money...but they were also not spending money ether....(well not much) "

That's far from the truth. The airlines are constantly spending money. They have to pay for the planes, the office space, the gate space, the labor, etc. Midway Airlines went out of business during the ground stop because they were losing so much money and not taking any in, the chances of them ever emerging from bankruptcy were nil.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Sat Sep 15, 2001 4:07 am

OK, I'm concluding from the responses that JB has done "really well" while their aircraft sit grounded and they're still "flush" with cash. Also, they make alot of money in the NYC-FLL market, which has a average yield of $105. It most likely won't even effect them when DL adds an additional 4 flights in the coming months to PBI and FLL.
 
Greg
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Sat Sep 15, 2001 5:09 am

Yeah...I think Vanguard, JetBlue, National, and USAir are in for a world of hurt!

With so little revenue to chase...the big boys are gonna be pounding on the pee-wees....
 
MAH4546
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Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Sat Sep 15, 2001 5:25 am

Padcrasher, your right, it most likely won't affect them because while DL is adding four more flights, jetBlue is adding five more flights, and jetBlue has already made a name for itself in South Florida that Delta Express has not. Delta Express is mainly meant to get tourist FROM the Northeast and Midwest TO Florida at cheap prices. South Floridians perfer flying American, Continental, and jetBlue, as well as mainline Delta, over Delta Express.
a.
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Sat Sep 15, 2001 6:47 am

Who knew that South Florida had all this pent up demand for NYC? JB adding more capacity is even better. The yield should drop to $65 and they will just wait DL out using their huge cash reserves obtained from their wildly profitable operation.  Big grin
 
elal106
Posts: 939
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Sat Sep 15, 2001 7:59 am

Uncle sam will have to pay for all the losses of all the companies....correct?~!!!!!!!

 
AgnusBymaster
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RE: Elal

Sat Sep 15, 2001 8:12 am

Nope.
 
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spinkid
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RE: Elal

Sat Sep 15, 2001 9:52 am

This may actually be good for jetBlue. If people are afraid of flying the majors or 757's and 767's. They will turn to jetBlue.
National may well not survive, they have had several problems for a while now anyway. I would kind of like to see jetBlue take over JFK-LAS. I love flying to Vegas, and it's acutaly not as cheap as it used to be.

 
N509JB
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Greg

Sat Sep 15, 2001 11:47 am

>>Yeah...I think Vanguard, JetBlue, National, and USAir are in for a world of hurt! <<

That comment reminds me of an old song:

*One of these things is not like the other...one of these things just doesn't belong*

N
 
VirginA340
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Sat Sep 15, 2001 12:22 pm

JB will live on and hopefully become international. DAve knows what he is doing and ever employee has a high moral in that company.
"FUIMUS"
 
elal106
Posts: 939
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2000 1:50 pm

RE: AgnusBymaster

Tue Sep 18, 2001 2:48 pm

AgnusBymaster,
seems like u dont know much....lets make a bet on it
 Laugh out loud that the goverment will give them the money sometime next week....!

VirginA340:
JB has no plans to fly international at all right now... Laugh out loud
they have to complete what they are doing in the USA before they think of doing it..
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Tue Sep 18, 2001 2:56 pm

Elal106, actually, quite the contrary. jetBlue does have plans to serve Aruba and other island destinations (some domestic, like SJU) in the Carribbean out of a third-base at FLL. However, Caribbean services won't start for at least 1-2 years.
a.
 
AgnusBymaster
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2001 8:11 am

RE: Elal

Tue Sep 18, 2001 9:54 pm

No, that's not what you said. You said that the government would be forced to pay for the airline's losses and there is no way that's going to happen. They may PARTIALLY compensate them, but I don't think it will be near enough to compensate for the money lost during the grounding (tens of millions per day at the larger carriers) and the ensuing losses from the dropoff in air travel.
 
Greg
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Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Tue Sep 18, 2001 10:20 pm

JetBlue doesn't have the cash to withstand this. If CO, UA, AA and the like are having problems...you can bet that JetBlue is right behind them.
Even if they still had the original capitalization amount...it would be tough with the reduction in traffic.

With carriers now battling for every seat possible on every route, this newcomer doesn't stand a chance against the larger, more mature carriers....

 
N509JB
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:20 pm

Yawn

Tue Sep 18, 2001 11:07 pm

We just got an email from David Neeleman stating that we are still profitable, still have money in the bank, and not planning on laying off anyone.

We came out of this shut down real well, customer satisfaction was VERY high. We were the 1st airline to fly back to NYC. This past friday, we had permission to land at Stewert-Newburg, and we had at least 2 flights land there, and then we bussed the pax over to JFK. They loved it, and they got home before everyone. Everyone was talking well about us...

Now, Greg, dont twist this around like you usually do. Will we put up a loss this quarter? Probably. But I think its ironic that the big airlines you gloat about all the time are in financial trouble, and filing for Cpt. 11 before we are...and dont try to tell me David Neeleman is lying to us.

N
 
airblue
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Tue Sep 18, 2001 11:25 pm

I agree with Greg,

in the next months all carriers battling for every seat possible and they will look more to the low-fares than business in order to rebuilding their operative and cost structure on the low-cost carriers style.
Probably some major (like DL for example) will take this occasion to rebuilding its cost structure and to try to put out of business some low-cost (Airtran, JetBlue....) from Florida market.

In my opinion in the next months only Southwest will become larger and stronger than today.
 
Dazed767
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Tue Sep 18, 2001 11:54 pm

As much as greg doesn't want jetblue to be successful, I think they will do just fine through all this crap. All the airlines are going to suffer, but jetblue has the financial backing and the balls to make it.
 
Greg
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Wed Sep 19, 2001 12:37 am

Also...recent events have ruined any possibility of having an IPO which JetBlue's Neeleman wanted for expansion (not to mention to get his money out of the original investment).

JetBlue has risen to cult status. I'm not sure why. But with a limited number of destinations and frequencies and only 14 planes (whether brand new or not...) they can..and probalby will be stepped all over.

JetBlue can report that it's profitable...but how much? A dollar over cost is profit. Neeleman needs to come clean. It's just another low cost, limited service carrier.
 
Guest

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Wed Sep 19, 2001 1:38 am

A dollar over cost is still millions better than many other airlines, even when fractioned down to B6's size.
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Wed Sep 19, 2001 2:22 am

The larger point is that his IPO is shot..... And that's his primary reason for starting the airline....he's gotta be pissed! His investors too!
 
Dazed767
Posts: 4968
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Wed Sep 19, 2001 3:32 am

“But with a limited number of destinations and frequencies and only 14 planes (whether brand new or not...) they can..and probalby will be stepped all over.”

Well what do you expect from a brand new carrier?! They've expanded quickly in the past year and a half and have done well (how many airlines can say that?). Of course they are going to have limited destinations in such a short amount of time operating, but they are
serving high density routes (not small cities like most start ups serve) which is profitable for them. With 18 (not 14, get with the program) A320's in the fleet, and 1 new plane a month, they will have the chance to expand. Give it a few months and I'm sure the loads
will begin to improve (for everyone, not just JB). Notice how all the major's are cutting thousands of jobs, and yet WN, B6 etc haven't....hum...tells ya that the little guys know what they are doing.

“With carriers now battling for every seat possible on every route, this newcomer doesn't stand a chance against the larger, more mature carriers....”

With Neelemans EXPERIENCE , this new carrier can out think those more “mature” carriers.

jetBlue isn't like every other airline, but only time will tell, and we'll have to wait til they prove you wrong.
 
Guest

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Wed Sep 19, 2001 5:39 am

jetBlue will be fine. They have lots of money and I am sure Neeleman knows what he is doing.
 
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lindy field
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Wed Sep 19, 2001 5:45 am

JetBlue is a "cult" airline for a reason--Nice service at low prices. I fly them frequently and always find the staff very helpful. I'm usually able to sleep on the transcontinental redeye flights and get in an hour of news before landing. They are a great airline and I'd like to see them survive. I hope the management can see them through hard times.
 
Pilot1113
Posts: 2276
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:42 pm

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Wed Sep 19, 2001 8:01 am

JetBlue will survive this mess. Neeleman has planned for the worse case scenario... no profit for at least 3 years!

I love all the armchair quarter backs who sit on their high horse and tell the world who's going to do what.

Do you have access to JetBlue's financial records? Even if you did, I doubt that you could understand what they mean.

- Neil Harrison
 
N509JB
Posts: 486
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RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Wed Sep 19, 2001 8:14 am

Once again I thank you all for yer support. Sometimes I thank god for free speach. It lets you know who ths fools are.  Big grin

N
 
jmacias34
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 10:50 am

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Wed Sep 19, 2001 8:26 am

Its jetBlue's 14 A320s which keep their costs down, it isn't like they have 300+ aircraft in their fleet. 9.11.01 hurt jetBlue, but not nearly in the effect that it hurt the majors... The larger they are, the harder they fell... Downsizing is iminent at the majors, 11,000 at US, 12,000 at CO, 20,000 at UA, NW and AA are going to announce similar plans. So far WN hasn't announced any plans I don't think jetBlue's total workforce is higher than 1,000. So I think jetBlue will ride this out.
 
klm672
Posts: 2514
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 6:09 am

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Wed Sep 19, 2001 8:30 am

I think JB is fine.
 
Guest

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Wed Sep 19, 2001 8:31 am

jetBlue will survive!
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Wed Sep 19, 2001 8:37 am

Doesn't jetBlue now have 16 A320s? I though they are getting them at a rate of something like one or two a month. I don't think many people realize how efficent jetBlue really is. Leather seats don't cost as much as people think (hey, Southwest is installing them on every plane in thier new fleet-renewal), and the costs of not having to serve hot meals far makes up for the costs of PTVs. And since thier A320s are equipped with over-water capability, they can do Miami-New York in just over 2 hours (my record is 2h4m), compared to the almost 3 hours it can take a Delta Express 737-200. Yes, equipping them with this equipment is a bigger investment, but, in the long run, pays offs a lot. They also don't hire cleaning crews to clean the planes, the FA's do it, another huge money-saver. And they load plans from the front and the rear (at least at FLL and PBI), which loads them, in other words, faster. And they serve the secondary airports in most cases (LGB over LAX, FLL over MIA, OAK over SFO), which yet again is a money saver.
a.
 
Guest

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Wed Sep 19, 2001 9:40 am

All I can say is that if Vanguard, Midwest Express, and US Airways (and maybe some of the others) all go bankrupt, extinct, or whatever, we are going to need another airline here in Kansas City. Where are you JetBlue? We need you here! Other than Midwest Express, nobody else seems to even be worthy of being my airline.
 
L.1011
Posts: 2164
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:46 am

RE: Bye Bye National Airlines And Jetblue

Wed Sep 19, 2001 10:03 am



how 'bout this? A major buys JB and operates it as a subsidiary. The major could help JB expand while JB would fly passengers from seccondary APs into the majors nearest hub. JB could also help give capacity on demand on highly travelled routes.


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