airbuspilot
Posts: 382
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Sabena VS Herr Muller

Thu Sep 20, 2001 5:35 am

What is the real strategy behind Christophe Mullers plan to "save " SABENA!!!!!
Some reflexions.....



1)His BP is nothing more than a resumee of all the BPs that have past the revue at SN the last 25 years. No innovation, no real market strategy,no vision. He is lagging behind the world of aviation with at least 5 years....

2)He does everything to annoy his employees. He knew that when he wanted to touch the CSL/careerplan the pilots would be upsett, he knew when he was going to brake a strike with a court order the unions would be pissed off, . Is he provoking something or what?????

3)He refuses any dialogue. He does not want to give any information regardless the " wet Renault" which obliges him to do so!Today , during the meeting, pilots asked him what he is aiming for with his BP. He could not even tell!!It is just a bunch of if that...and that...and that...and that...than maybe we will be able to....
Not one guarantee, not one exact piece of evidence,no nothing. A sack filled with air....

4)He imposes ultimata that grow tighter every minute. Today managment and unions had a meeting where he propsed some details of his BP. The first details but HERR Muller wants an agreement by sunday!!!Immagine that, a socially catastrophical plan for 12000 people that he wants to be signed within 4 days!!!!

5)He MISUSES the disaster that struck the USA to force his employees to sign a blanc piece of paper. Later he will fill in the details. He told the people that they had to act very quickly otherwise it would be too late due to the USA disaster. If they would sign before sunday everything would be allright. he would be able to get his money and so on...
BULLSHIT, the kapital injection promised is comming to SN no matter what, this has nothing to do with the agreement of his BP!!!!!!But he finds it the right thing to do , rub these awfull events in theeir faces and they will sign whatever I want!!!!DISGUSTING!!!!

6)He does not even think about the impact of 10 months of social discussions,arguments,BPs, uncertainty,...has on his personnel. Everybody is getting nervous, suspicious,angry, frustrated...etc but he still expects us to do our jobs with all the proffessionalism we have!!We are trying but we are only human...one of these days somebody will crack at SN and than what.....Are you calling that a responsable CEO of an airline?

Let me tell you this, I am beginning to think that the only thing Herr Muller wants is the bancrupcy of SN.
He has been appointed by SR, he is still working for them and SN is too much of a deadweight within SRs plans so the man had a mission: let SN disappear.So he started to reign with terror. Divide the personnel, they will kill each other!!!
So he sets up the different groups of pilots against each other by promising one group jobs and saying to the others they will be fired, disregarding any previous deals made!!!!Unfortunately this did not work, we stayed united.
Than he tried the game with the unions. Lets put up the unions against the flying personnel!!!Unfortunately he made a terrible mistake by restraining the freedom to strike!!!!This did not work either!!!!
Than he tried to change the public opinion against the pilots and sn personnel in general!!!!Did not work

And now I ll bet that this evil mind is even happy with the malaise in the global airline bussiness due to to the terrible events of last week in the US. At last he has a reason to put a tremendous pressure on SN employees!!!And if they do not comply to his demands, he has a reason to shut down SN!!!!At last he will have found a reason....

I hope I am totally wrong here but I am afraid not.Maybe SN will exist untill DEC and than...

And Herr Muller will move on to another company, another mission, another point on his resume...

Thank you very much christophe.....we should have listend to LH when they told us you where no good....

What are your thoughts here????




 
DutchWings
Posts: 82
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RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Thu Sep 20, 2001 6:03 am

My thoughts are sabena sux and it is never profitable
 
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American 767
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RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Thu Sep 20, 2001 6:45 am

Sabena is not dead yet and I still hope, like you and all other Sabena employees and fans, that Sabena won't shut down. It does still have a chance to recover from it's debt, slowly but surely. It says in the newspapers that if a recovery plan is not found then Sabena will have just a few months to live, but that doesn't mean you should think it will die. It's not impossible that it stays alive! I still ask myself how will Sabena be saved, but I don't loose hope of survival.

DutchWings, please don't be so negative. Why do you hate so much Sabena? What is it that you have against them? If you don't like Sabena, I respect your taste, it's ok but explain WHY. Don't just post a stupid reply and say oh Sabena is bad, if you are not happy about something then give us some explanations and we discuss about it! Would you like to see Sabena going out of business? I don't know if you would but I would definitely not like to see that happen. A lot of Belgian fellows, including myself, are very concerned about the future of Sabena. You don't seem to care about the danger Sabena is going though. "My thoughts are sabena sux and it is never profitable " what kind of reply is this? You don't care, fine, it's your business! But then, remain quiet instead of just saying bad things about an airline without explaining.
I'm sorry but I did not appreciate the way you reacted to Airbuspilot's post. Next time you make a post, think a little bit more positive!

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium
Ben Soriano
 
DutchWings
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RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:41 pm

Sabena seems to be in trouble alllt he time this isn't the first time, and thats why i think it's getting pretty annoying
 
TCA256
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RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Thu Sep 20, 2001 5:16 pm

"sabena sux"

Keep the tarmac clean...
 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Thu Sep 20, 2001 5:47 pm

Airbuspilot - what a load of twaddle!

1) "The BP is an amalgamation of all the other plans" - which is kind of logica. The problem with the other plans is that they were not followed. Nor do I think that this includes much of Paul Reutlinger's expansionist plans!

2) "He deliberately annoys his staff" = don't be silly - what manager would do that? Given SN's circumstances, the CSL should never have happened - it was too much of a utopian dream, which would work only in a stable, profitable, well managed company: something SN has never been.

3) "He refuses any dialogue" = so? Who is the CEO, Muller or the unions? This is not some small plan about a possible new route or a new aircraft where consultation would be the norm - this is a survival plan and he is perfectly right to say, as he has done, that to change around with the ingredients would be like "making soup without salt". What do pilots know about running airlines, anyway?

4) "He imposes ultimatums that grow ever tighter" = of course he does! The childish games payed by BeCA have cost the company a lot of money - money the company does not have. The already low level of confidence coupled with the recent events in America mean that far less income is coming in than was projected so unless the plan is signed off on Sunday, the company cannot legally continue as a going concern. It's that simple.

5) "He misuses the USA disaster to force the signing of the deal" - there's no time to spend ten months talking, with non-official unions (ie BeCA) staging illegal strikes etc ... let me put it in clear terms that you lot will understand: Sabena has run out of time. If all of the terms are not agreed - including acceptance that up to a further 25% of jobs, aircraft etc will be cut, the company will close.

6) "He doesn't take into consideration the effects of the uncertainty" - well, he's trying to minimise that uncertainty by standing firm with his terms - so there can be no uncertainty. Obviously, the recent events have changed things - as they have for nearly every airline around the world - but it would have been a lot simpler if the strikes etc hadn't happended. This is a disaster brought upon Sabena by its over staffing in all areas, low utilisation of crews - due in large part to poor fleet planning - industrial actions, high social costs etc.

Your theory that he's working for SR is nonsensical. SR have washed their hands of SN with the final investment - they no longer have any interest in it. Muller was re-appointed by the Belgian government, so you're really saying that the Belgian government wants to see it closed down, which I am sure they do as it has cost the taxpayer so much money for so little return.

You lot expect the shareholders to keep on employing everyone and flying aircraft when there are no passengers or money to merit it. You must all be completely insane!! Have you no idea how a business operates? It certainly doesn't look as if you do.

I have been saying for a long time now that Muller will have no option other than to close the company - and I'm right. When you're competing against hundreds of far more qualified pilots for every new job that comes up in the future, you can think about that - that if BeCA hadn't buried its head in the sand, you might still have been flying.

In fact, you know what? I recon BeCA is really SR's secret weapon to close down SN! Big grin  Insane Big grin
 
LJ
Posts: 4112
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Thu Sep 20, 2001 7:26 pm

Why does a bankruptcy means the end of Sabena? In a recent CANVAS programme called "Terzake", a former VLM CEO gave what sounds like the most likely scenario IF Sabena folds. Sabena will probably restart according to Mullers business plan (I wouldn't be suprised if Muller even heads the "new" Sabena) and align to an alliance.

Regards
Laurens

BTW I do agree that SR won't mind if SN goes bankrupt. However, it looks very bad on Muller's resume if he fails.
 
OO-AOG
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RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Thu Sep 20, 2001 9:47 pm

When you take a look to the current situation in the airline's world, I think that Sabena employees should give a break to everyone and try together to save their company. Even wealthy airlines are worried of their immediate future, not to speak of strugling Sabena!
I am an ex-Sabena, I know how bad the company is from the inside, so guys no more strike if you want a future. The US tragedy is not an excuse to fire people, it's a damned serious problem for any CEO, that need immediate action.
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
LJ
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RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Fri Sep 21, 2001 2:52 am

BerlugaBoy, the media is already blaming the pilot (at least on Bloomberg where they think the pilots are nuts). Allthough, I agree with the pilots when they say that SN management doesn't understand them (a SN spokesperson even admitted that they don't understand the pilots) and that is a failure on the management side. However, the pilots must also realise that if airlines like BA, AZ and possibly AF are laying off people due to the tragedy in New York that SN must lay off aswell. Yes not all airlines are laying off staff (KLM at least for the moment said that they have not the intention), but those airlines are in much better shape than SN.

Fortunately we know by Sunday if SN will go bankrupt or not (the new deadline as I always thought that October 3rd was the deadline).

BTW The EU Commision said today NO to state aid.

Regards
Laurens

 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
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RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Fri Sep 21, 2001 4:28 am

Let it go bancrupt then. This may be the best option ever.

Just had a proposal:SN will be operating 50 seaters. A captain will earn 99000bef brut and a n F/O 77000bef.After tax deduction this means +/- 1000USD a month F/O and 1300USD a month Captain!!!This is the offer he maid!!!

Here in Belgium the average F/O pays 750USD a month on his loan to become a pilot!!!!So why even bother to become a pilot!

Once this was an honourable profession, now it is thanks to managers like ceilidh that it is wrth nothing!!

To everybody reading this: fly your own godamn airplanes when you are going on a holliday, fly it during the nights, on weekends, etc. Take responsability over 50 people or more for the price of one meal a day!!!

Oh and do not forget: stay responsable and professional!!!!


 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Fri Sep 21, 2001 6:19 am

Let's get this straight, Airbuspilot. You and your colleagues would rather see 9,000 people lose their jobs than take a pay cut to help save your company.

If you lot hadn't pissed away millions of francs on strikes then there would have been money available to pay people a little more.

Resign, and let one of the thousands of other pilots who are now out of work take the job. I'm sure they would prefer 99,000bef/77,000bef month than whatever is on offer at the unemployment office.

And I'm sure you and your BeCA colleagues will be setting up your own airline as you obviously think you can do it better than the professionals. Good luck to you!
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
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RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Fri Sep 21, 2001 3:36 pm

What would you do ceilidh???I bet you are the type of guy that would sell his own mother if he could make a profit out of it!
So you think it is right that a company asks 3000000bef for a pilots training that costs 38000bef a month and afterwards these pilots have to be gratefull that they are allowed to fly????I know this must be a wet dream for you but dont you understand that this is killing them??In both ways, they will do anything to fly overtime so they can gain more!!!!
In my opinion the proffession of being a pilot deserves some respect, this shows no respect of all!
And if they are payin this amount to a pilot, what will they be paying the cabin crew?Minimum minimum!
So much for safety,professionalism, attracting high yield pax etc....
These toung ones will earn a better living if they become a salesman!!!!

Remember this, if ever you would be able to get your pathetic company in the air, even you will need pilots!!!I know you hate them but you will have to. GOOD LUCK TO YOU, it is not easy to live with peple you hate!!!!
 
LJ
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RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Fri Sep 21, 2001 3:46 pm

Airbuspilot, why don't the pilots (with the help of some wealthy poeple) buy out the airline like what happened at Air Liberté and some other airlines? Seems not a bad idea as this would be better than SN go bankrupt.

Regards
Laurens

BTW Ceillidh why don't you buy SN (or parts of it)? The price won't be high, probably EUR 1 + all debt (and if you're lucky you get some cash from Swissair and/or the Belgian State), and you're instantly a CEO of a "major". Or are you waiting for the bankruptcy to get the assets cheaper?
 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Fri Sep 21, 2001 7:52 pm

LJ - the debt scares me plus also what makes you think that I would be able to do a better job than Swissair, BA, BCal, SAS, Air France (twice) etc? Given the high social and taxation costs, I wouldn't consider putting any company in Belgium - at least not until those have been reformed.

Airbuspilot 3 million BEF = US$69,000 which is very high for a conversion, even for Airbus training. Of course, if you're saying that this covers you from ab-initio all the way up to a rating, then I'd say it's a very good deal indeed.

And if the latter is the case, then what do you expect? You have the choice of going to your bank and borrowing the money - and they will want it back as well.

I certainly don't 'hate' pilots as you claim. A pilot is simply an aerial bus or truck driver. They have the same level of responsibility and whilst of course a pilot has a significantly higher amount of training, there is no real fundamental difference between them. Pilots have, however, regarded themselves as being 'special' and therefore trying to justify why they should be paid more that the CEOs of most small to medium companies. An experienced FO, in my opinion, should be paid the same as a junior manager; and a captain the same as a middle manager. Training captains would be paid the same as a senior manager.

I do however feel that cabin crew pay should be increased to the level where the Purser/CSD is being paid at least the same as an FO.
 
Spitfire
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RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Fri Sep 21, 2001 11:45 pm

Has you ever see a truck, a bus ,a train ...blow up buildings like WTC and Pentagon ?
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Fri Sep 21, 2001 11:55 pm

Spitfire - yes, actually!  Insane  Insane
 
Spitfire
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RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sat Sep 22, 2001 12:40 am

I think the plan of Müller and the Swiss managers is more subtle. They know that their BP is totaly unacceptable and that it will lead to nothing.
They want to bankrupt Sabena anyway. But they have to show to the public that they have done everything to save this company and that the "bloody pilots" are the soles reponsibles for this situation.

So, the next day, they can reconstruct another airline (with the remains of the previous one) WITHOUT HAVING ANY DEBTS ANYMORE towards the banks and the belgian state (and some others).

And so those "respectable sharks" will now be able to impose anything they want to their "new" employees. This is already written in the plan itself and understandable through the very FEW answers given to our numerous questions (50+) we asked to Müller concerning his BP.

And, in that case, we 'd better work for a low cost airline, like RyanAir, instead of the "new Sabena", because it will look more like slavery that anything else. There is no more respect in the head of the Sabena's staff for their pilots and their employees. We are just numbers.
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Spitfire
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RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sat Sep 22, 2001 2:03 am

Ceilidh,

For your information, here in Belgium, due to the high level of tax, 77,000 BEF BRUTO, means you have only something like 40,000 ( +/- 1000 € ) on your bank account. When you know that the unemployment benefit is around 850-875 € netto, you could better understand what Airbuspilot is saying. You have to know the belgian conjoncture before put a straight advise. It is not like in your country.
Those pilots have also to pay between 875 and 1000 € EACH month, for 5 to 7 years, to pay back the loan they made to pay their pilot's study in Belgium and in Scottsdale.
With what will they live? ...Ok I can ear you already:" better have 1000€, pay 875€ and live with 125€ per month "...that's a little bit simple-mindedness.
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sat Sep 22, 2001 2:25 am

Spitfire - How do you get to €850 - 875 unemployment benefit? Here it's £51.30 per week - say €300 or so per month!

I can understand what you're saying about the cost of training, but wouldn't it be better to renegotiate that with SN, for example by saying to them that they have to reduce correspondingly the training debt by any pay reduction? That's how I'd do it. That way they have the full (or most of) the €1,000 to live on.
 
LJ
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Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sat Sep 22, 2001 2:47 am

Spitfire, it doesn't happen often but I totally agree with the scenario you pointed out in your post (they want SN to go bankrupt). Blue Skies was probably their first attempt to off load SN. Unfortuneately for SR (and to great suprise of SR) the unions accepted Blue Skies. Fact remained (and I've said it on many occasions) that SR wants to off load SN as cheap as possible. If SN goes bankrupt they have exactly what they want.

Regards
Laurens

BTW do you really think the banks are losing a lot by SNs bankruptcy? I think they've made sure that their loans are covered by some sort of guarantee. Leaves only one other loser besides the employees: the Belgian tax payer!

 
Spitfire
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RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sat Sep 22, 2001 2:50 am

Yes Ceilidh, in Belgium for the first years ( I think between two and five, I'm not sure) of unemployment you can get ( someone with family) around 850€ A MONTH as unemployment benefit. That's a big difference with your country. The "social security" is something very important in Belgium (that' s one of the reason why the taxes are so high).
So, as I said before you do not have all the elements concerning the belgian laws and way of life. You 'd better inform you a lot more before making statements like you did before. We are not in England nor in the States. Belgian unions and governments build up during the last century a very "socialist" state. It's a fact, you can deplore it, but it 's like that.
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Spitfire
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Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sat Sep 22, 2001 3:00 am

Laurens,

Could be of course. So everybody will be winning, except the Sabena's employees and the belgian tax payers (as usual...).
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sat Sep 22, 2001 3:02 am

Spitfire, you neglected to mention the "with a family" bit. Here, similar rules apply, and the figures wouldn't be wildly different either if you have a family with 3 kids or so. How much would a single person get in Belgium, though?

Laurens - why would SR want to offload SN for as little as possible when they have invested so much money into it? If that's all they wanted to do, I am sure that they would never have made the investment in the first place!
 
Spitfire
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RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sat Sep 22, 2001 3:23 am

Ceilidh,

When I say "with family", it's a wife and maybe one child. A single will get something like 750-800 €. I don't think young pilots around 22-25 years old would already have three or more children. They are not rabbits...(...even if we have some reputation...).

And concerning SR, they have already earned back the money they invested in SN.
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sat Sep 22, 2001 3:46 am

Ceilidh,

Check this link ( it's in french but I'm sure you can understand it). I was not so far with my previous posts.

http://www.cgslb.be/chom.htm
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sat Sep 22, 2001 4:42 am

Spitfire - thanks for that; very interesting! Of course, we have to bear in mind that the cost of living in Belgium is very high ... when I was operating out of OST, I had one friend in Brussels that I used to bring things from Mothercare in the UK for his very young family because it was so much cheaper there than in Belgium.
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sat Sep 22, 2001 8:03 am

Ceilidh,
My wife used to call me the "Sky grocer" when I returned from the States (when the $ was lower...) 'cause I brought back lots of different things (foods, clothes, computers stuffs, tools ....) cheaper that in Belgium....
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sat Sep 22, 2001 6:58 pm

SR has all the money that they put in Sabena long back
As the beca mentions, they took the Johannesburg flight, they want to take the Tokio flight, etc
This list is endless and shows SR never had good intentions with Sabena
 
LJ
Posts: 4112
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 2:02 am

Maverickk, I don't agree. I think that initially SR wanted to make a big alliance and SN was very cheap at the time. Their vision was to make a grand European Airline. However, they failed. Then some SR shareholders became very anxious to off load SN.

Regards
Laurens

BTW does naybody know if SR has to pay anything if SN goes bust?
 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:31 am

As I understand it, this final lot of money that they are investing is it - they are now absolved of all liabilities.

Maverickk, what BeCA forgets is that SR was not really competing with SN on any of those routes. Sure, they both operated to/from Europe, but that's really where the similarity ends. Izzy Etkin, SN's SA Country Manager is an old friend of mine and as he put it: "SR is quality and high prices; SN is cheap and cheerful - we are going for two completely different markets". That's like BA seeing Ryanair as a competitor!

If SR's intention had been to simply get rid of it, there are many simpler - and cheaper - ways of doing so. But why should they? They didn't directly compete!

As Laurens rightly says, SR wanted to create a pan-European airline to compete with BA who were doing the same (with Deutsche BA, Air Liberte, TAT etc). Their biggest problem was that Switzerland isn't a member of the EU, which presented ownership percentage problems - especially with SN operating outside the EU where to comply with the bilaterals they would have to majority Belgian owned and controlled. It was a lot more complex than they thought it would be - and as SQ and BA found, having minority interests in other carriers just doesn't work.

To suggest any ulterior motive on the part of SR is pure paranoia!
 
LJ
Posts: 4112
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 4:10 am

Ceillidh, you must agree that the SR at present wants to off load SN as soon as possible against the lowest cost. The SR management is under very big pressure from its own shareholders to off load any loss making investment so that SR will survive.

Anyway I just read on VRT Teletekst that all unions (except the pilots) agreed to Mullers plan (see following link).

http://www.tv1.be/tt/tt.php?p=115&g=0&s=0&r=0&x=1

Regards
Laurens
 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 4:21 am

Laurens - I absolutely agree that SR now needs to offload SN at the lowest cost, and this they have been able to accomplish through the deal with the Belgian government where they put in €220m.

Hopefully the pilots will not do anything stupid to jeopardise the jobs of the other 9,000 employees - but based on some of the comments here and their past actions, I wouldn't bet against it.
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 10:03 am

Very nice discussion!

I will publish here the latest facts/calculations that will proof that there is something wrong with this whole story! It is a flyer that we received today from the BeCA.Maybe there will be some people saying that I should not publish this but in my opnion this needs to be known by all those interested in this situation.It can only add value to this discussion!

BLUE SKY

* 12.2 BILLION management measures: almost nothing realised
*10 billion BEF kapitalinjection by shareholders: where did these go to?
*selling of two A340s: not realised, costing 45 million bef per aircraft per month!

-->after 6 months: again catastrophical results with losses around 4.6 billion bef-->errormargin of 300%

The same management, inclusif MULLER, proposes a new plan:THE BUSINESS PLAN!!!!

BUSINESS PLAN MULLER

*insufficient kapitalisation: 11 billion bef of SR and 6 billion bef of the Belgian Government--> barely enough to cover the dismantling operation of SABENA????(idem Blue Sky???)

* selling of SOBELAIR, SN-catering, -cargo, Technics, hotels, SSES, SFA, Atraxis, BFSC. When and for which price????Nobody knows the actual consequences of these sales: loss of jobs, lower salaries, loss of different insurances,service tickets, other advantages....


WHAT HAS BEEN DISCOVERED........

*Closure of the flight to Johannesburg: at that time there was an excellent occupation rate. Now we have a situation where every week there is a shortage of 4500 places between Western-Europe and South-Africa.
-->result: tickets on these lines are costing almost the double--->SWISSAIR HAS ALREADY INCREASED ITS FREQUENCIES!!!

*Closure of flight to TOKYO: also an excellent occupation rate, every airline is fighting to have slots at Tokyo.Remember next year the worldcup soccer is organised at Tokyo and Korea and already a shortage in available seats is forseen on these routes!
-->SWISSAIR WILL TAKE OVER THIS PRODUCTION WITH THE BEGINNING OF WINTERSEASON AND HAS ALREADY INCREASED TICKETPRICES WITH +/-16000bef/pax!!!!Why could SN not increase ticketprices on these flights??

*SABENA has been forced to close the line to Miami in favour of a line to Newark.SWISSAIR took over the flight to MIAMI which is now one of SRs most profitable destiantions!!!!!AMP....?

In the meantime the A340s , that where forseen to fly the flights to Miami are doing nothing, standing on the tarmac and costing +/- 45 million Bef/aircraft/month!!

*SN catering costs have gone up with 465% (!!!!!) in the period between 1999 and 2000---> GATE GOURMET? (part of SR group)

*SN-handling costs have gone up with 6billion Bef (!!!!) between 1999 and 2000. this represents +/- 90% of the operational losses of the SABENA group---->SWISSPORT???

*most of the SWISSAIR flights leave just before SABENA flights, leaving SABENA with the remainin pax. Remember handling is done by SWISSPORT so they prefer to reroute most of the pax on SR flights, including most of the high yield pax!!!-->AMP??

*SABENA managment declares that they are willing to cooperate and that they will follow a politic of 100% transparency......the financial survey of the BP, ordered by the BeCA, and conducted by 5 full time independent consultants has to be stopped after ONLY 1 WEEK due to the lack of cooperation of the SABENA management and because almost none of the documents and information requested has been received!!!!WHAT ARE THEY HIDING???


So far this overview of things happening at SABENA.

I smell something here.......
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 10:04 am

For info 1US $ = 44 Bef
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 10:25 am

It seems that all this sh... is giving you also insomnia... Hi K.
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
LJ
Posts: 4112
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 6:55 pm

Just on VRT: SN deadline at today 16.00 CET (4 hours to go).

Regards
Laurens
 
flying lsd
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2001 1:30 am

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 7:21 pm

deadline maybe but what's next : a kind of chapter 11 just like in US, a "concordat"
maybe a new SN builded on new financial health?
It's maybe sad but it's time !
 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 7:42 pm

Nope, as I understand it this deadline = liquidation (Chapter 7). SN has effectively already been operating in a "concordat" (Chapter 11) as it is currently insolvent without additional shareholders funds.

Airbuspilot, I think I know a lot more about operating economics than you do - and especially those applicable to South Africa. SN's fare levels were such that it was losing money on every flight - no matter how full it was. Due to the devaluation of the Rand (ZAR), and the fact that the majority of tickets sold on the route are sold in ZAR, the average one way yield per seat was under $200. Do the maths. SN was using a B747-300 with 400 seats at a cost of some $12,000 per hour on a 10 hour flight = $120,000. Revenues would be 300 x 200 at absolute best (and usually load factors were much lower) = $60,000 income = nett loss per sector of $60,000. Why do you think other airlines - including AZ and OS - have pulled out of South Africa? Only those airlines with a premium service - BA, VS, LH and SR have been able to survive on this route. SN was - and is - very much a low quality, low fare operation; and therefore could not justify the fare levels charged by other carriers.

As for your other comments about SN closing down xxx and SR ramping up its service ... what twaddle!!! I'd agree with you if, say, it had been CityBird in place of Swissair - there you have a direct competitor in your own market. But Swissair's market is nowhere near Belgium! How many pax per SR flight originate or are going to Belgium? Precious few!! Also, remember that SR's product is a premium one - especially its J and F services; never in a million years could anyone apply that description to SN!

It's clear that BeCA have completely lost it. Next they will be saying that it's a CIA plot to take over the EU; and that Muller is really Elvis (or Frank Lorenzo!) in disguise!!

Good grief!!  Insane  Insane  Insane

 
petertenthije
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 7:43 pm

Just a question, when SN goes bankrupt and restarts without the debts. Would it again be allowed to fly to the profitable destinations like Miami, Johannesburg etc. I thought those slots are given on a country basis. If SN isn't with SR anymore, would SR stil be allowed to fly to these destinations. And what would happen to the other SN companies like the maintenance, catering etc.

Attamottamotta!
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 8:38 pm

My dear ceilidh,

proof has been given that pax have received money if they would accept a rerouting via zurich!

Instead of flying Boston-Brussels with SN they fly Boston-Zurich-Brussels with SR and they received cheques up to 15000Bef for this. The proof is there! There goes your theory!

Concerning South-African routes: How do you explain the following
*Swissair increasing its frequencies, together with SAA. Probably to you it would be a coincidence that just now SR took a major stake in SAA!!!!!

For your information ( and this again proofs that you do not know shit about aviation), SN is still operating normally and is not under Chapter 11 or concordat!Know your stuff if you want to play a hotshot!

Maybe you should try to bother and ask the ex SN pax on JHB what they thought about SN service. You should not forget that Africans know SN very well and SN is used to work according the african mentality. Africans love SABENA!!!The swiss pulled out previously because they could not handle the africans....Off course when there is enough money involved they accept the flights...Africa is no premium class market my friend...maybe that is why you allready had three airlines goin bancrupt...a lack of view!!!

About SR being premium class and SN lower class: hard to explain when the on board/in flight services given are exactly the same!!!!!

About your last remark: go play with your toys little boy!
 
Com3205
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2001 1:11 am

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 8:38 pm

If Sn is in concordat Mr Muller will be able to take special mesures, it will be easier to put certain people out of the company.(names are known). I think he will put the BeCA knock out and continue with those who are willing to work under new contracts. So a deadline is not a bad move from Mr Muller's point a view.
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 8:44 pm

SN is not in concordat. If this had been the case it should have been published in the " staatsblad" with a KB. This , untill now, is not the case so.....

You are absolutely right when you are talking about the special measures. Now, don't you think that if this had been the cas, Muller would not have taken this step by now....SN will not find itself very soon under concordat because then they would have to open all the books and stuff and show it to anybody who is interested and they will never allow that!

Ceilidh, next time you want to make a statement please show up with some proof instead of hollow phraseology!!Oh, and use more smilies, these are the only things interesting in your postings....
 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 9:06 pm

Petertenthije - you can't just declare yourself bankrupt to avoid repayment of debts, otherwise everyone would do it! All that it does is allows you to reorganise the debts and recapitalise - and that's what's happening at the moment.

Airbuspilot - where's your 'proof', then? If they are getting 15,000 BEF for rerouting, then on the lowest fares they are getting more than the lowest fares available on the route! Sounds like a good deal to me - where do I sign up?!?  Insane  Insane

You're contradicting yourself. Again. On the one hand, you're saying that SR didn't understand the African market (strange that as they have been flying to many African destinations for over 50 years) and that they "pulled out" - when, exactly? - whereas SN works according to the African mentality (you said it, I didn't! Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin) On the other hand, you're saying that SR is now increasing its African services. Right. So which is it then?

You also claim that South Africa isn't a premium class market - but that's what's keeping SR, BA, VS, etc going! Perhaps you know something they don't? If so, you and the rest of your colleagues should start their own airline - a number of ex Continental guys set up Pride Air but it didn't last very long!

Further, SR has had its stake in SA for a number of years now. They have the option to acquire a larger holding, which they will almost certainly let lapse as they are keen to offload that which they already own.

Does SAA serve BRU? No. Does SR serve direct BRU-JNB? No. So they are hardly in direct competition with SN then, are they! If you check the demographics, you'll find that the majority of Belgian passengers are flying via Paris, Amsterdam or London - not ZRH. I flew JNB-BRU-JNB many times, mainly in F class when they had that - and frankly the only reason I flew them was because they were so much cheaper than any other airline and offered common-rated fares to London and other European points. The service was awful; the flights were almost guaranteed to be late and the only positive thing was that the catering was pretty good. Oh, and I liked the giveaways in F - I still use some of the purple leather items such as the passport holder.

Finally, you claim that the on board/inflight service is exactly the same - how can this be so when SN doesn't have an F class any more - whereas both SR and SA do?

It was interesting to see that BeCA is not an official union and has no rights whatsoever at SN ... and that the courts have fined them for their illegal actions and for the losses incurred. That was clever of them, eh! Big grin  Insane Big grin

 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 10:02 pm

We will have to see about the court order!

I said SN understands African mentality, not works by it!

The only difference is first class indeed, but do you remember who forbid SN to have first class a couple of years ago....indeed SR!

It is commonly known that it was under pressure of SAA that the SR group was asked to alter the nr of freq on JHB! And guess who was the victim within SR group.

You really want to argue about who has got the biggest experience on the african market...Go ahead!SN has been flyin african destination much longer than 50 yers....let's say some 75 years...!!!

I said SR has been thinking about leaving the JHB market because they could not get used to the mentality. Aero Press even thought about boycotting the flight because of all the problems they had flying that route!!!!

If you want the 15000 bef just go to an SWissport counter overseas and ask about it!Even Muller acknowledged these rumours you know!!Maybe ask him, he is one of your kind!!!!!

Thanks for the smilies!?!?!

 
A330
Posts: 688
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 12:31 am

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 10:59 pm

Airbuspilot, stop sucking the d*cks of the BCA mafia and wake up. I will hold you partially resposnsible my nice uniform will start collecting dust in the closed in the near future.
Where were you the last 2 weeks, even in Oagadougu they had CNN...
Once and for all, the BeCa capo's are old,rich,selfish long-haul pilots or the ones who only do night stops and fly 40h a month. Are these the guys that have the best intentions with Belgian master personnel, No, they just want more power, thanks to the BeCA, no Belgian pilots are recruited by Ryanair for their Charleroi base, thanks to the BeCA, SN might go belly-up, thanks to the BeCA,ther are big tensions between the personnel of all Belgian companies.
I propose if the worst happens to sue Beca with all the pilots, student pilots and other employees in a class-action for they are even worse as the Swiss.
Shiek!
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Sun Sep 23, 2001 11:30 pm

From a selfish long haul pilot : I have more than 65 block hours this month, PLUS 10 hours Recurent courses, PLUS 10 hours simulator + prof checks, PLUS Fire Fighting Training, PLUS 2 days reserve. Far away from your stupid 40 h ......
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Mon Sep 24, 2001 1:47 am

Shame you're actually not the African aviation expert you claim Ceilidh. BTW what year will "CaledonianWings" sky-darkening fleet of L1011's be airborne: 2003,2004,2005,... ?
 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Mon Sep 24, 2001 1:55 am

Spitfire - that still amounts to only 85 hours per month plus 2 days reserve - sheer luxury! (Ask some of the CX guys how many days a month they are on reserve) Big grin Big grin Big grin

The FR guys are probably doing 85 - 90 hours a month - and as it's all short sectors, it's a lot harder than long haul flying!

A330 - well said!  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Mon Sep 24, 2001 2:22 am

The best proof that the BeCA is on the right track:

This afternoon, during the so called last possible negotiations between management and personnel, the unions walked away because the proposals done by the managment where unaccetable!!!!

Muller had treathend that if no agreement was reached by 16h this afternoon he (?!?!) would take his responsability and he would close down the company.
His provovation did not work, the unions opend thei eyes and walked away ( not only the pilots but everybody).
And now , again, they are negotiating. I think it is about time Muller takes his responsability and walks away!!!!

A330, recently bought a Porche and you are fearing that you will not be able to pay it off??What is your problem?Or is it the yacht maybe????
If you want to lower your pants and get screwed by the Muller gang bang thats fine by me but do not impose this attitude to everybody!!!Maybe we should sue you!

B.T.W nice smilies ceilidh, keep up the good work, the kids are loving it!
 
Guest

RE: Sabena VS Herr Muller

Mon Sep 24, 2001 2:35 am

Looks like it's all over for SN then. So long and thanks for all the fun, guys!  Insane  Insane  Insane

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