Guest

Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Wed Sep 26, 2001 8:22 pm

26.9.2001: Sabena is forcing the unions to let down their demands. If not Sabena will be bankrupted within now and 24 hours.
 
BelugaBoy
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 10:36 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Wed Sep 26, 2001 8:42 pm


KPMG controller here in the company gives advise to cancel all Sabena tickets. ( 26/09/2001 morning )

There is no future at all !
If the plan is NOT carried out like it was on the table ( and that will not be the case because manegement gave in on certain things ! ) bankrupcy is 100 % certain, even the case that the plan will be carried out the chances that Sabena makes 2002 is not greater then 10 % . Situation is getting worse every minute ! (**)

Pilots say they will go on strike ( !!!! ) when there is an agreement between management and unions without there approval. You should know that they are not even participating in those talks !! When there is no agreement .... ( see above )

So the conclusion : bankrupcy is a fact !!

( ** source = KPMG controller )
 
Guest

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Wed Sep 26, 2001 8:56 pm

If I was Swissair, I'd sue BeCA (which isn't even a recognised union) and every pilot that strikes for the money that they lost on their investment. What a bunch of selfish children - prepared to let 9,000 people lose their jobs because they can't get their own way!  Pissed  Pissed  Pissed
 
sab12
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 5:40 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:03 am

Ceilidh,

Not all pilots share the view of the BCA, far from.

I do agree that the moneychannels to SR have to stop, but I do not agree to go on strike, as do many of my colleagues.
We should fight for the survival of our company and not put a knife in the back of our CEO.
 
lumumba
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 7:16 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:14 am

I think that they have an agreament on the table?
Wy don't now what's inside yet.
Let's have a bit of hope now.
I think that all the poeple of SABENA deserved it.
 
Guest

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:23 am

Sab12 - if there were more people with your views, SN would not be in the situation it is today!
 
sab12
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 5:40 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:33 am

Ceilidh,

I know they are there, and I hope that we can give Sabena a future, I will certainly fight for it, but never at the expense of pax
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
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RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:35 am

An ex-Schreiner guy are you?

Yes, I thought so... :-(
 
cybise
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 6:43 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:41 am

Now I’m pissed. I hope that the Sabena pilots sue Swissair AND the Belgian government for standing by with their fingers up their noses while the amazing management team from the Swiss have raped the company blind right under their faces!!! How on earth can somebody blame a group of professional pilots for the downfall of an entire airline??? For asking some questions like: “Where the hell has all our money gone?” “Why are we paying over 400% more for our catering and ground handling since the Swiss took over?” It sounds to me like they care more than anyone what happens to Sabena. They are certainly not looking out for their own best interests. They are genuinely concerned for the survival of their company! Can somebody tell me why they are evil for asking some important questions? I suppose this could be directed at ceilidh, but I’ll be very depressed if he’s the only one to respond to this. Without having a business degree like these really smart management people at Swissair and Sabena, can you tell me genius, why they can’t get answers to their simple questions or even be able to complete a proper audit when the management refuses to give them all the paperwork? So this is the scenario for those who despise Sabena for some strange reason. The country has some problems, like all. It’s damn expensive to run a business and the social cost is great. But to slam over and over again an entire country and hate with a passion a particular airline is beyond me.
Well, I vented. It just burns me to read posts about Sabena and see that people blame the pilots for being the airline destroyer when they are the ONLY ones to take a stand against this obvious bone picking of Sabena. If this company is going down, they might as well go down asking all the right questions. Some day they may not be able to survive, but now is the time to find out WHY!
The wife of a Sabena pilot
 
sab12
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 5:40 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:53 am

Sabenapilot,

Sorry to tell you but I am not an Ex Schreiner pilot, I am a belgian pilot who works longer then you in Sabena, so keep your arguments for yourself and go insult other people.
I am not against the BCA, I just don't share all there views especially the use of striking when we are in such a bad shape, and I believe in a democratic world you are free to have an opinion.
Sabenapilot if you have a problem with that you should not be on this forum but somewhere else....
 
Guest

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 1:13 am

Cybise - if SN's catering and handling costs are artificially expensive, then don't you think that the Belgian government would have looked into it? I recently compared the handling costs between Belgavia and SN/Swissport and the cost was negligible.

I suspect that the reality is simply that each area of the company was reorganised as an independent cost centre and had to charge market rates to other parts of the company for their business. This is normal practice!

I cannot see how striking helps the company! What does a strike do? It costs the company serious amounts of money, it causes inconvenience for the passengers and other clients of the company, and it causes those customers to place their business elsewhere in the future. What's the benefit, then, if, as you say they are genuinely concerned for the survival of their company! - it's a heck of a strange way to show it!  Insane  Insane

As I understand it, BeCA was given access to all the documentation (as were the other unions). BeCA wanted to take copies of the documents, which was not permitted. The other unions completed their audit and were satisfied. BeCA, as I understand it, threw their toys out of the cot because they were not allowed to break the rules - known to all parties in advance - and therefore went on strike!

There are many more reasonable people within Sabena - like Sab12 - who do care about their future and who want the company to survive. They recognise - as do all the other unions - that the only way to achieve that survival is to accept the business plan (together with whatever additional cuts will be required as result of the changed market conditions) and sort out any problems down track when the company has stabilised.

The militants at BeCA, on the other hand, are prepared - as Airbuspilot has said in the past - to put 9,000 people out of work because they can't do things their way.

Is that right or fair? I think not!
 
Spitfire
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RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 1:46 am

You are once more completly wrong Ceilidh. We have find the numbers:
- catering cost 1999: 355 m and 1995 m for 2000 (+ 465%)!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are giving caviar the economy class pax or what??????????
- And the same for ground handling ( increase of more that 6 BILLIONS Bef between 1999 and 2000).
By the way, except for 2 and half days of strike this year (wich effectively have cost some millions to the Sabena - but nothing compare to the lost of 4.3 BILLIONS for the first semestre of this year- just an error of 300% made by the managment- prevision was -1.3 billions AT THE END OF 2001),are you able to point out WHEN the pilots made their last social actions,... let's say for the last five years ?????
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
cybise
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 6:43 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 2:21 am

Yes, why hasn't the Belgian government looked into the costs at Sabena? They see the pilots kicking over these numbers that don't seem to make sense to them. Are you saying that the BeCA has been using incorrect numbers? They didn't complete an audit. They were given one in three papers that they asked for, and management apparently wasn't cooperating. Do you think Sabena has the best rates for their catering and handling? Why do you think Swissair took away some profitable routes from Sabena and gave them to themselves? Why are they taking Tokyo away and charging an additional 16,000BF per ticket? Why did they take away Miami? Why can't Sabena keep those and help dig themselves out of the hole? Is there something going on with Sabena that they (Swissair) don't want anyone to know about? Then why don't they answer the questions asked of them! If there's so much finger pointing and no dialogue then why is that? How come Mueller isn't sitting down with the pilots, the flight attendants and all ground support and answering these questions. Won't happen. And I'm sure Sab12 would love to keep his job just like everyone else, but is he on the right aircraft that Sabena will be keeping? Because seniority just got chucked out the window. Yes, strikes are terrible things people do in terrible times. Unfortunately they cause some pain in the short term, but fortunately they can make positive changes for the long term. I've already heard of so many strikes in other companies I can't even count them. Haven't heard about the militants that they are having no right to defend themselves when something is obviously wrong! And if anyone can answer those questions I've asked, I'd say they should get a job at Sabena management because they'd be doing a much better job than what I've seen/heard about so far.
 
LJ
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RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 2:30 am

The unions (except for BeCA allthough BeCA is not considered an union) and the management have reached an agreement about the 1,400 lay offs. However the pilots are not commenting untill the final text has been published (tomorrow). Anyway the referendum will go ahead on October 2nd and the day after is D-day for SN (the SN shareholders meeting).

My predictions. As the strike ban has been lifted they (the pilots) will probably strike on October 2nd and/or October 3rd. I hope for 100% backing of Muller's business plan however I think 85% is more likely. The employees (apart from maybe the pilots) wouldn't dare to force SN into bankruptcy thus they accept the business plan.

I can't forcast how the pilots will react but if they reject Muller's plan I see a 90% chance that SR will say on October 3rd: " Goodbye Sabena" and SN will go bankrupt. However, I think that the pilots are bluffing (they don't really want to lead SN into bankruptcy) and just as most other employees vote (reluctantly) in favour of Muller's business plan (apert from some pilots).

Anyway as the VRT already put it correctly: Muller has won!

Regards
Laurens
 
go canada!
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RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 4:51 am

if only, typical unions, wreck and ravage and complain
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
LX-Maria
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 6:44 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 6:23 am

As a general remark; don't answer Ceilidh.
To all the Sabena-guys; i fully understand your position but i wouldn't strike; just go for some pax-friendly action.
The referendum wil turn against you as i heard there is an extra 3 months in it to negociate new productivity measures; this will make people considering to answer 'yes' on the crucial question. I would just go accepting the BP of Herr Muller; consider it a tactical move just to get the money.
In the next months coming: it will prove he has a bad BP and he will be fired; i mean; he will go back to Swissair.
.
For the Sabena-guys; keep your aircrafts in the air as i still want to join Sabena one day; be it especially as my future husband works in Gent.
.
PS: If Muller really meant to become a Sabénien; he would have started learning dutch or french to show some respect for the Belgian workforce. I started 6 months ago and "ik ben er zeker van dat het voor iedereen mogelijk is jullie taal te leren in een korte tijdspanne. Dikke kussen en tot binnnenkort. Doe zo voort en zet misschien een 'charme-offensief?' in voor het Belgische publiek."
 
Spitfire
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RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 6:30 am

WOOOOOW LX-MARIA.... proficiat.....(from a french speaking sabenian...).Anyway thank you for your support.
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
First Class
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2000 3:46 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 4:00 pm

Hi there
Anything new about the bankruptcy of Sabena? When will we know more about the vote?
Cheers, Hanspeter
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
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RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 4:17 pm

Today I guess
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 5:00 pm

Hello LX-Maria!

Here's something to think about by those who claim SR does not try to rip off SN as much as possible...
Take 2 minutes and read it carefully, please.
Until 1999 Sabena cabin crew was responsible for replacing the curtain/deviders between Y and C class each time there was a cabin config change in outstation (so almost on half of the flights). Ceilidh may not believe it, but nobody of the cabin crew ever complained about this. After all, it takes only 2 minutes and is considered as part of the job in almost any airline, including his would-be carrier I'd imagine... Smile/happy/getting dizzy.
However, SN's management thought it would be more "appropriate" to give this responsability to ground handling i.s.o. flight crew, so as from the beginning of 2000 replacing the curtains is done by Swissport handling at the cost of 7000 francs (or 175 euro) per plane handeled!
Don't you think this is just outrageous? Not only is the cost of this way too high, but it is also very stupid to introduce such a thing at all at a moment where you are loosing money, don't you think? This totally useless contract is worth around 300.000.000 francs (or 7.5 million euro) a year! (source = SN)
Unions of the cabin crew have on several occasions told the management that they wouldn't mind if this contract would be terminated and that they would be pleased to take up that responsibility once again like they did for the last 50 years. After all, according to the unions, our cabin crew still has some spare minutes in between flights anyway.
No way, said the management, we'll keep the contract!
If you want to do something in between your flights you can cut the lemons yourself from now on, i.s.o. having them pre-sliced on board. Estimated savings of this silly measure are as low as only 2 million franc a year....
This is just one of the many corrupt thinks the audit came up with and after the BeCA (and other Unions) asked to get official copies of both the lemon slicing agreement and even more important the curtain contract (to be able to go to court with those and show that the management is abusing its powers) the SN management ordered us to stop the audit immediately.

 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 5:26 pm

Sab12,
I don't want to spend too much time on this.
We shouldn't burn all our energy fighting eachother, we should fight SR together;
As you have said, you want the transfers from SN to SR to be stopped. I want that too!
However, you don't want to put a knife in Muller's back. Me neither actually. I don't like to fight the person, because that won't change a thing for SN. If we kick Muller out, they'll just put another gangster in! (Just look at Godfroid; the BeCA and the Unions kicked him out, but what did we get in return?)
We sould urge the Belgian government to get rid of SR instead!
They have proven over the last year to be completely dishonest and corrupt! Only a fair partnership can save us. That's why the BeCA really needs to kick those buts from time to time our nothing will change at all.
Do you really think the plan will save your job?
I can assure you that by 31 Dec 2001 we'll all be in exactly the same situation as we are now even with the Muller plan...
I suppose you know that ALL the money that will be "invested" in Sabena in a few days (i.e. 17 billion francs) will go to SR at the end of December since Sabena has agreed to expedite the pay back of a loan to Zurich?
I mean, we don't have a cent for ourselve, but we will do more then legally required by paying back a loan to others in one time? Do you consider it common practice of any CEO of a struggeling company to accept this?
Of course not, except at Sabena, where the CEO is actually a SR man, who's only goal is to save his real employer Swissair at the expenses of others Sabena, AOM, Air Littoral, ....
 
Guest

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 5:33 pm

CityBird hasn't gone into liquidation, by the way...

From today's ATW Online:

At City Bird Holding's general meeting yesterday, shareholders voted in favor of a takeover of the airline by German tourism group Thomas Cook AG. Earlier this week Thomas Cook had let it be known that it no longer was interested in acquiring the financially troubled charter airline given the difficult trading circumstances following the Sept. 11 events in the US. However, a Brussels court decided the German group had to pursue its commitment as negotiations were already in a final stage. Shareholders accepted to waive the eur9.9 million purchase price in a last effort to accomplish the recovery plan, which is being organized under a court-supervised creditor protection scheme, and as such save the airline from bankruptcy. In return, Thomas Cook committed Bef1.15 billion of financial means to ensure City Bird's continuity.
 
sab12
Posts: 95
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RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 5:48 pm

Airbuspilot,

If Muller wanted to leave Sabena he would allready be long gone, because he allready had the chance to become head of the Swiss air group, but instead he chose to stay with Sabena so I think he deserves some credit for that.
At this moment there's no real choice what we can do, we can only accept the BP or it is finished on the 3 october and then we can continue to discuss the moneychannels to SR.
If we go on strike now it will be finished with Sabena, so you will give the Swiss want they want!
We should fight and show the Belgian taxpayer the Sabena has a reason for existance but not by punishing our pax, no pax=no sabena.
You can bet on it that the Belgian governement will keep here eyes open now, maybe you have noticed the growing discussions between political parties.
But for now we do not have an option, if Sabena goes bankrupt then you and I are on the street and believe me, you will never work for the same salary again
 
First Class
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2000 3:46 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 6:37 pm

Sorry to say but these pilots statements disqualify themselves. But to be honest I do not expect more from them.
The statements lack of any knowhow and context.
This seems to be these pilots narrow minds.
Please be a bit more selfcritical.
You as everybody else know that Sabena never ever made any profit and it was always feeded by the government.
Seems to be historical that no Belgium airline can operate profitable (Sabena, TEA, Citybird, Virgin Express...).
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 6:44 pm

Excuse me Sab12, did you attend the general assembly for all the employees of tuesday evening and did you see the slides presentation of one of our Captain?
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
sab12
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 5:40 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 6:54 pm

pls inform me spitfire, I do not know?
 
D-aqui
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2001 7:16 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 6:57 pm

Being a regular SABENA passenger (at least two sectors per week) I have asked myself the introductory question over and over again, particularly when I was grounded by some wild industrial action as the one staged by the pilots some weeks ago.

With intelligence shining through the media now, the situation appears to be more complex than just an antagonism pilots vs. rest of the company, particularly as the pilots have been denied access to the negotiations that have taken place yesterday.

Nevertheless it should have been crystal clear to everyone involved that Sabena has been in trouble before 11 Septeber 2001 already, and that there are some reasons for this.

I only want to highlight one issue: From my own point of view I regrettably have to remark that the over-emphasising of social factors at all cost seems to be a trademark of industrial relations in Belgium. Since I have started to work in this country I have experienced a lot of strikes, but somehow it appeared to me that trade unions and interest groups do not seem to refelect that in the end someone will have to pay for the benefits derived by them. In case of strikes these are mostly the passengers with all the consequences for an airline's reputation.

Despite the perception of some contributions to another forum on this site, trade unions have their undisputed role in European working relations culture but their role varies widely, from cooperating for the benefit of all to constant disruption of economic processes.

Lufthansa's recovery in the 1990ies might serve as an example where collaboration between staff, trade unions and management helped to regain profitability, although this year's strike of the pilots with its exaggerated salary demands has also spotted the shining image. Furthermore I am aware of the fact that one example does not always apply to a certain problem.

But nevertheless, being convinced of the professionality of the Sabena staff I hope that everyone will finally realise that stepping back might save the company and this traditional name among Europe's airlines. Otherwise a fine airline will disappear soon (and I will have to commute by car or get an IFR license).
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 7:08 pm

Sab12,
Don't say me you were not informed about a BeCA general assy tuesday at 17 pm for the pilots and at 19 pm for ALL the Sabena's employees.More than 600 peoples, from ALL the employees dvisions were present. If you weren't informed, then I should admit you are not a Sabena pilot nor an employee.
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
sab12
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RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 7:12 pm

Spitfire
Offcourse I was informed about the assembly, but I was unable to attend since I was flying
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 7:15 pm

First Class,

There is more knowhow in the lower echelons of Sabena's cleaning department then in the complete SwissairGroup management. How else can you explain the foolish idea to make SR into a worldplayer?
SR has always been famous for its slow market adaptation. Weren't they one of the last airlines to join computer booking systems for instance?

The only thing SR is good at is to give us all the impression they are really the top, but those who know better know the swiss' reputation is built on a clever market stategy of nothing more then "the finest chocolats (symbolises quality) and the best watches (stands for efficiency)."

----

Belgian chocolates are much better BTW.
(besides where would the swiss have learned to make chocolats, they never had a single cacao plantation...)




 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 7:49 pm

Sab12, that's a pretty good reason of course !!
Ask people who attend this meeting. It will be too long to explain here every proof concerning the flow of belgian taxpayers money towards Swissair pocket.
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
gibberish
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2000 5:35 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 9:35 pm

They should be bankrupt by now then!!!
 Smile
 
sab12
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 5:40 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 9:36 pm

Spitfire,

You do not have to convince me about moneychannels to SR, I do totally agree on this subject with you and there should be an immediate stop to it
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 9:49 pm

Ok Sab 12,

We'll have to wait now to see what's remaining of Müller's plan concerning the social part and hope we can find an agreement in the next weeks on his higher productivity request. I don't think a strike is in the air now. First let's read the fresh signed agreement and discuss with him.
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 10:00 pm

Sabenapilot,

There is more knowhow in the lower echelons of Sabena's cleaning department then in the complete SwissairGroup management

Why don't you put them in charge? They should be a vast improvement over Sabena's management and the BeCA.

How else can you explain the foolish idea to make SR into a worldplayer?

Swissair was a world player. They were regarded as the finest European airline for many years, and until the mid-90s, had the best product anywhere. They were making money out the wazoo.

This changed when 2 things happened in the 90's. 1) A new management team thought they could make even more money by cutting costs/service levels (e.g. abandoning Geneva, squeezing more seats into planes), and 2) Pouring in billions of dollars into loser airlines like Sabena, AOM, etc.

So yes, SR did some pretty stupid things. But Sabena did absolutely nothing to help themselves, and have contributed to putting Swissair in the precarious position they are today.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
First Class
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RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 10:23 pm

To Sabenapilot:
Just one last answer to you:
In the whole net I have never found such stupid arguments you use. It is so ridiculous that it is a waste of time answering you.
For example you are talking about money flowing from SN to SR!!!!!!!!!!!!
You could also try to convince the world that water flows uphill.
Please stop posting anything in the future.
 
airbus380
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RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 10:28 pm

It has been 24 hours since your post and they are still flying.
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 10:29 pm

Still lots of work to do to convince people about what we have found in the papers.....
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 10:50 pm

Hello Cfalk,

My last post was basically for First Class only.
What I ment was: stop regarding us at Sabena as a bunch of idiots who do not even know how to do our job properly and who do little more then ripping of Swissair.
I think that the least you can say about ALL Sabena staff is that they are VERY PROFESSIONAL. This goes from pilots over cabin crew and technicians down to the cabin cleaning department. (boy, I hate to always mention these people when referring to the lower echelons of a company, but sadly it is a fact)

Of course SR also is a very fine MEDIUM sized European carrier, just like Sabena! I have flown several times on SR (thanks to free tickets) and their staff too is highly skilled and professional. I have no problems in saying that they are at least as good as we are.  Wink/being sarcastic

However, please stay fair and do not give them even more credit then they deserve by giving the impression SR is much better then us. The BP of Mr. Muller included a survey which clearly proved that Sabena's in flight service is objectively BETTER then the SR product, but that the perception of passengers is exactly the other way round. That's what I ment with " ...the swiss' reputation is built on a clever market stategy of nothing more then the finest chocolats (symbolises quality) and the best watches (stands for efficiency)." SR carries more then just the flag of Switzerland, it also (ab)uses all other things we normally associate with Switzerland. Unfortunately for us in Belgium, the same thing apparently goes for Sabena as well...

We all have an idea of how things are done at foreign carriers even without ever having flown on them, don't we? For instance: we all have an idea of how things are onboard Alitalia flights.
No offence ment here, but Alitialia is supposed to be always late and staff is always supposed to be involved in arguements with you all the time, not? But is this the reality? Certainly not, but however hard Alitalia tries to prove us the reality, they remain stuck whith the stereotypical image.

In short, don't be so arrogant, there is no reason to.





 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
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RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 10:52 pm

Yes First Class,

Wasn't the earth considered flat for a few thousands of years?
 
MD-11 forever
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Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:15 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Thu Sep 27, 2001 11:49 pm

So the money flows from SN to SR... funny fairy tale!!!

So if this is true, why on earth is swissair group close to bankrupcy???? It's quite funny to hear all the excuses you bring up, why for god's sake should swissair pump billions into sabena and charge them higher than usual catering fees and so on? WAKE UP!! If Belgians can do everything better, why did they sell the stake to swissair and accept their management? Let me tell you one thing, I work for SR, and I also don't know whether I'll have a job next week or not, so please stop these ignorant fairy tales and at least proof what you're claiming to be the truth!!!! And if you could proof it, why didn't the Belgium government sue swissair for anything?? If it's that obvious, go to a court and get your money back! But I suppose there's no proof, that's way you can't do that! So please try to be fair!! Also in Switzerland 16000 people are scared about their job!
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Fri Sep 28, 2001 1:15 am

Wait and see Md-11....
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
gerardo
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun May 21, 2000 6:22 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Fri Sep 28, 2001 2:28 am

How many millions of US$ went from SR to SN first?

Just a question ....
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Fri Sep 28, 2001 5:45 am

MD-11 forever,

I thought Swiss were known as clever bankers...

I'll give you the simplified mechanism on how to rip off a company by owning it only for 50%. It is a well known mechanism used several times in the past in all kinds of industries.

1° try to get hold of about 50% of the shares, not more, because then it becomes less interesting, not less because then it becomes too risky.

2° create huge costs for that company by forcing it to take up contracts with other companies you own for the full 100%.

3° make sure the company looses enough money on this so that it has to be recapitalised at the end of the year.

4° ask the co-owner(s) for an equally important share in this recapitalisation.

5° deduct your part in the recapitalisation from the profits your other companies make thanks to this mechanism.

6° Check for a positive result and run the same trick again the next year.


simplified example:
1° We have 2 airlines: SN and SR.
SN is jointly owned by SR and another investor, called BEGOV each hab-ving about 50% as required for an optimal functioning of this mechanism.
SR has created a lot of subcompanies, called GG(food), SP(handling), FL (leasing) etc. etc.

2° SR makes sure SN orders everything at SR's subcompanies GG, SP, FL etc. at higher then normal costs.
GG overprizes SN for about 100million euro, SP for 150million euro, FL for about 200million euro.
Since this is just overprize, you must consider it as pure profit, so this actually is nothing less then a hidden cash flow from SN to SR of about half a billion euro/year!

3° At the end of the year, thanks to these huge cashflows, SN has to publish year results showing a loss of about 300 million euro.

4° Now both shareholders, being SR and BEGOV, have to make good for this loss, so they both pay 150 million euro to SN.

5° At the end of the year SR alone also receives from its subcompanies the profits they made on the SN contracts.
If we make the total cash flow balance for both shareholders you see this:
BEGOV = - 150 million euro
SR = (100 + 150 + 200) - 150 = 300 million euro
Surprisingly this is the same amount as SN had to anounce as loss...
Can it be more clear then this?

You might ask me; If all this is true, then why is SR not making money? Answer, because it is loosing even more money and unlike SN its losses are for real!



 
erj190
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Fri Sep 28, 2001 6:52 am


I have a certain tendency to sympathize with people that consider Swissair and the SairGroup responsable for the current situation of Sabena.

Althous I am not in position to analyze Sabena's situation and relation with Swissair, I know that it is not necessary to take money out of a company to kill it.

When TAP-Air Portugal, was closely working with Swissair, strange things occurred:

Tap-Air Portugal is the largest european airline, in which concerns connections between europe and Brazil. Nevertheless, reservations made by the travel agency with whom I use to work, booked me on flights from Lisbon to Sao paulo, via Zurich.

After Swissair took control ot TAP reservation system, the flights between Portugal and Switzerland showed the Swissair flights full, and the TAP flights almost empty.

Curiously the reservation system had the tendency to fill up the SwissAir flights and only then book seats on Air Portugal aircraft.

Also curious is that there are about 60% Portuguese passengers flying between Switzerland and Portugal.

When of the agreements between Swissair and South African Airways, ALL OF A SUDDEN, the flights between Portugal and South Africa, started having problems. South Africa is one of the countries with more Portuguese residents, and cape town was allways a profitable route, and all of a sudden Swissair claims TAP must stop flying to South Africa.

I really don't believe in coincidences.

You can kill a rabit in 1000 diferent ways.
You can kill an airline without taking one single Euro cent out of it's bank account.
 
310_engineer
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Fri Sep 28, 2001 7:20 am

WOH, look at that! Seems like Swissair use the same scenariobook with TAP.

No the good old brave Swissair  Innocent would never do a thing like that, must be a coincidence.
 
teahan
Posts: 4990
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 1999 11:18 pm

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Fri Sep 28, 2001 7:33 am

Hello,

I might not be adding much, but I must say that I sympathize with Sabena Employees and the people on this board who believe in the SN->SR cashflow. I have also heard rumours about the things Erj190 was talking about.

No matter what people say, Sabena are are a great airline and will always be one of my favourite.

At the end of the day, I am sure you all know that Sabena means "Such A Beautiful Experience Now Availible"

Jeremiah
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Fri Sep 28, 2001 8:22 am

Dear Sabenapilot,


May I add something to your great demonstration ?

I have been explained, a few month ago, by a Swiss friend (staff of a big bank in Geneva!!!) that there is a very strange law in Switzerland (according our EU standards) allowing a company making profits, to "hide" those profits from their annual counts and books (in order to make a sort of "reserve" in case of bad years in the future).

Those hidden profits will never appear anywhere in the counts and so they are NOT subject to taxation.It is like this money NEVER EXISTED.

Your 300 million euro profit (or a part of it) can so be hidden somewhere in a bank in Switzerland.  Innocent  Angry
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Fri Sep 28, 2001 8:49 am

Thanks Erj190.

With evidences like yours, slowly but surely the halter is tying up around SR neck....
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Guest

RE: Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?

Fri Sep 28, 2001 4:31 pm

I don't think anyone disagrees that SR took advantage of SN and its other acquisitions - but the reality is that that's what most holding companies do, which is why companies are bought in the first place. You guys have very short memories - that's exactly what Air France did as well (remember the A340s etc?)

Muller now works solidly for SN rather than for SR and is the last and only chance for SN's survival. If you want to keep getting paid a salary, accept the survival plan. If you want to join the ranks of the unemployed, then go on strike.