Player4keeps
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Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:34 pm

article below says it all:
____________________
Source Toronto Star
October 5th 2001


Air Canada got monopoly wish; let it suffer

Re Air Canada was fine until Liberals interfered, Letter, Oct. 4.

It appears that Chris Timson is ignorant or in denial of the true facts surrounding Air Canada's existence.

The Liberals created Air Canada in 1937 and made it the government's pet by allowing it to have a virtual monopoly on route allocations, government financing, loan guarantees, etc.

Canadian Pacific Air Lines, on the other hand, only operated the routes rejected by Air Canada and, until 1959, wasn't allowed to operate a trans-continental route.

Air Canada's beloved pet status continued right up until 1988, when upon being privatized, it had all its debts wiped clean and kept the proceeds from its initial stock issue.

As for Canadian Airlines employees refusing to participate in "fair job bids," again Timson ignores the true facts. Both the Air Canada CUPE and CAW locals represented the airlines and their position on merging was a date-of-hire dovetailing of seniority.

It appears Timson believes there should be one set of rules for Air Canada and another set of rules for everybody else.

As for Gerry Schwartz's Onex bid to merge the two airlines, unlike Air Canada's "no layoff" promise, which the airline proceeded to renege on in December, 2000, Schwartz identified staff surpluses and had allocated $750 million for early retirements and buyouts, which, had he been successful, would have greatly reduced staff levels by now.

Last, throughout Air Canada's entire existence, it always believed it should be the only airline in Canada, and, as the old saying goes: "Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it."

Gary Macdonald

Toronto

 
blink182
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sat Oct 06, 2001 11:26 pm

I will have to agree with the writer of this. Air Canada pretty much had the government on its side everytime and was pretty much the spoiled king's kid, while Canadian and the rest were the slaves. Air Canada had it their way everytime. Canadian had to fight.
Personally, if Air Canada were to go down, I wouldn't feel one bit of sympathy for Robert Milton and the top officials of Air Canada.
Air Canada had it their way for 70 plus years, now it is time for them for them to suffer.
rgds,
blink182
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
chepos
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sat Oct 06, 2001 11:31 pm

Now they might understand the saying that being the biggest isn't always the best.

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Florian Kondziela


Chepos
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
JAT
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sat Oct 06, 2001 11:37 pm

I am compleatly repulsed by Robert Milton he is a an arrogant, picture-perfect example of a capitalist pig. He doesn't care about passengers or employess at all, he just wants to collect as much money as possible. Everything he says on that note is compeatly fake.

Whenevere the Federal Government wants to step in to regulate some aspect of the company (i.e. prevent predatory pricing etc.) Air Canada whines that "this is capitalism" and "the strongest survive" and "there should be no interference in private enterprises by the government" and so on.

Now, when they need the government they say "we are not just a company, we are a national institution" and "we need support, we provide a necessary service, we are not just a company" and so on.

Very hypocritical.

If they go under, good, they are a private enterprise. If not then they should be natioanlized and become a national service and not just a company. There should be no pumping tax payers' money into it whenever there is a problem. Either they suffer on their own, or the government gets a share of the company beofre giving them hundreds of millions of dollars at the drop of a hat.

That is my view on this whole fiasco.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:40 am

I agree. AC has benefited from very favourable treatment for years....and yet is so poorly managed that they can't make money with an 85% domestic market share, favourable route authorities, a 9-year economic expansion during the '90's. All incredible.

Let AC fail. Something viable will rise from the ashes.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:50 am

Posted by Yyz717: Let AC fail. Something viable will rise from the ashes.

Indeed there are viable alternatives to the AC morass ready, willing and fully capable of quickly filling the short-lived vacuum that would result from the demise of AC; their names are Westjet, Canada 3000, and perhaps Canadi>n Regional and Air Transat.
 
Player4keeps
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RE: Tango-Bravo

Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:57 am

your right except for the fact for Air Transat. They r not really capable of much! C3 and Westjet know how to run a successfull profitable airlines.
 
Marrty
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Player4keeps

Sun Oct 07, 2001 2:06 am

There you are my little buddy - I knew you would surface again! Airtransam lives on - Air Canada and Air Transat bashing as always. Unfounded drivel!

However, like it or not, the Canadian government cannot let AC fail, as it provides one of the essential economic services in Canada. Because they have such a large market share, the other airlines can't fill in if they go belly up.

Whether you like AC or not, their failure will not be allowed. They may file for bankruptcy in order to reorganize, but that will be the extent of it.

 
Player4keeps
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sat Oct 13, 2001 11:55 pm

I have no sympathy for this airline.
 
Air Taiwan
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 12:01 am

But if Air Canada goes belly up, wouldn't the Canadian economy be hurt tremendously? Look what happened to Australia when Ansett went down, and Ansett only had about 40% of the market...

Jimmy
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 2:47 am

I think we all need to distnace are personal feelings towards a company from the reality of the situation...As much as it would be nice for the other airlines of Canada AC must survive, and it is the governments fault. For years the let AC do what they wanted while others where left to fend for themselves, and now the Big Green Machine has too much of the country in it's hands to be aloud to die. Right now we need the government to stay the hell out of the situation, and let Air Canada downsize, releasing some of the market for the other player, everyone is quick to sya that westjet can easily take up the air canada market, I personally don;t think so, that is not their business. Yes they could take up short haul domestic routes, but their kind of business does not belong in the Transcon, or transboarder market. They are not well suited enough to offer that kind of service. We all have to accept the fact that AC is here to stay, but maybe now they will see that having 300 managers in Vancouver is not very good for business when you could do the same thing with less then half that amount. On the same token we can not expect C3 or even Wj to pick up that slack over night, those companies are also financially affected but the economic down turn, and may not be ready to pick up Air Canada's market.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 2:58 am

Player4keeps

Hi Airtransam,

I have no sympathy for this airline.

LOL, ya don't say!  Big grin

(looka, I don't like the political hamstringing either, but to a large extent it's a fact of life, at least for the next few years anyway, til everybody in the biz can better adjust to updated operational and economic realities)
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 3:01 am

I agree with Slawko.

It is imperative that the Canadian public flies the 'other airlines' as much as possible to reduce our collective reliance on AC. An 85% market share is a vitual monopoly.

If need be, let AC fail. Lucrative pieces will be picked up in liquidation. There may be short term upheaval, but in the long term, Canada may benefit by having AC out of the picture.

Ansett's failure really only caused about 2 weeks of turmoil in Aus. Things are quickly getting back to normal.

Y'know, in a cruch, I've flown YYZ-YVR via UA thru ORD.....of AC fails, I'd do the same again if I have to.

Markets abhor vacuums....if AC fails, others will quickly fill in, in the subsequent months.

Neil/Toronto
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
polaris
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 6:57 am

There is a lot of misinformation here provided by those with their own agenda.

Air Canada's domestic market share is closer to 60% rather than 85% as some like to say.

When Air Canada was privatised in the late 80s, it was on its own. Canadian Airlines was the carrier in trouble and, to try to help it survive, the Canadian government assigned it many lucrative international routes. Routes that Canadian Airlines was unable to operate and therefore sat dormant while foreign carriers scooped up the business.

There is no carrier equipped to fill the void should Air Canada fail...as some seem to support. Current domestic carriers could not step in as they are not equipped to handle that situation. Seats would be at a premium and, therefore, airfares would skyrocket. International route rights would revert back to the federal government and, as no Canadian carrier is in a position to take over these rights, foreign carriers would pick up the business because of their reciprocal rights. Canada, one of the world's aviation pioneers, would be forced to give up lucrative international traffic to our foreign competitors.

There is so much more but, unfortunately, it would appear to be a waste time. There are those who are driven by emotion and personal vendetta. They are not interested in facts.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:37 am

Polaris, you cannot say that once AC was privatized, that it was on its own. The very lucrative route authorities that it was handed by the Cdn Govt while govt owned, stayed with the airline. These included: YYZ-LGA/BOS/LAX/CDG/LHR/FRA....all w strong business traffic......so AC has benefited greatly ever since for the govt largesse that it received prior to privatization.

Neil/Toronto
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
AC_B777
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 9:43 am

AC may have had government help over the years, but so have other Canadian airlines.
Yyz717, AC did have good routes on the transatlantic system, but do you remember who gave CP exclusive rights to fly Pacific routes? The Canadian government. They gave CP lucritive routes to Tokyo, Hong Kong and many other Asian routes. And, while every other airline that flew these routes made money, CP lost money.
Air Canada was not given permission to fly these routes until 1994, so you can't blame them for CP's loss on transpacific routes.
If AC were to fail, there would be no way that other Canadian carriers would be able to pick up the slack, and there would definatly be an increase in ticket prices from C3, WJ, etc. Also, as Polaris stated, this would open the doors for US carriers to be dominant in the Canadain market.
If AC were to fail, there would be more than AC failing. Many, many businesses would fail and there would be massive job losses in Canada and other countries.
Think twice about what you would like to see happen to AC.

AC_B777
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 9:49 am

In the '50s, the Far East had third world status...those Pacific rights than CP was given were not worth much in the '50's....they only came of value in the 70s/80s.

If AC went under, you can be sure that the liquidators would sell off the lucrative portiond to the highest bidders. There would be short term travel chaos but things would stabilize in a few months. Witness Swissair, Ansett.

Neil/Toronto
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
AC_B777
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 10:14 am

Yyz717,
When do you think that CP got all the Asian routes? It was back then in the 80's when they should have been profitable to them. They were flying there in the 80's and early 90's. They should have been making money, not loosing it on those routes.
Sure there would be short term travel chaos, but what about the 40,000 plus people that would loose their jobs with AC? What about the other jobs from support companies? What about the other jobs related to AC, directly and indirectly?
Is it short term chaos for these people? I don't think so my friend. I am not too keen on loosing my job because people like you think that AC should fail. I don't care for your reasonings for wanting AC to fail, I take it very personally. I love the company I work for and I want to see it succeed. I don't want people to get hurt, however, it seems like people like you don't give a damn.

AC_B777
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 10:37 am

AC_B777--I love the company and I want to see it succeed


Bravo AC_B777, best way to tell 'im. No doubt about it.
 
Air Taiwan
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 11:51 am

It would be much more difficult for C3 and Westjet to pick up Air Canada's routes then Qantas picking up Ansett's...

The chaos will be much much bigger if AC went down...

Jimmy
 
Bove
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 12:06 pm

Bravo Yyz717...telling it just like it is as always. A job with AC (or anybody else) is not a guarantee and I'm confident if AC went bankrupt the profitable parts/equipment will be auctioned off to the highest bidder.

Shame what lousy management has done to the potential of this great airline.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 12:16 pm

Thanks Bove.

I would argue that AC (being so inefficient w/incompetent mgmt) actually is stifling the industry and keeping more Canadians from being gainfully employed in a competitive airline industry.

I wish AC-777 no harm but he's only thinking about his own immediate employment. AC's dominance and inefficiency is a detriment to the country.

Neil/Toronto.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 12:19 pm

Bove--telling it just like it is as always

Well, not always  Big grin (but at least he doesn't beat around the bush, that part's sure good)

A job with AC(or anybody else) is not a guarantee

Well it shouldn`t be, right, but.. often in the world--for a whole bunch of reasons-- it is. And not just at AC either. Anyway the smaller the institutions, the more social considerations enter in, that`s just how things go. And it`s not necessarily a bad, just has to be balanced out with things like competence, honesty, efficiency, and other commendable attributes.

I'm confident if AC went bankrupt the profitable parts/equipment will be auctioned off

In theory it sounds efficient, but again, lotta externalities. Gotta consider 'em. And not just strictly political ones, either.

Anyway would you fly Tango, d'you hate AC that much that you wouldn't under any circumstances consider such a possibility?
 
AC_A340
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Sun Oct 14, 2001 1:03 pm

First of all C3 is in bad financial shape right now. I'm pretty sure it was CBC that said that but I'm not certain. And second, the government crippled the industry in September. They should be forced to pay the lost expenses that they caused. Air Canada is not hypocritical, they have a sense of how to run a business. They were turning profits at points when other carriers were not.

Whether anyone likes it or not, Air Canada is here to stay. Every other airline in Canada can not fill 85% of the market overnight. They are not designed for the route structure that AC has. The travel industry can not survive without AC.

However the future shapes up, I'm sure some re-structuring is required.
 
AC_B777
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Mon Oct 15, 2001 2:06 am

Yyz717,

Yes I am thinking of my own job, but I am also thinking of the 14 guys that just got laidoff last week who I work with. I'm thinking of the thousands of people who get to go home later this week without a job. What about them?
If AC was not efficient, then how come we were making profits three, four and five years ago?
It was only in the last two years since the government of Canada made us buy out CP that we started loosing money. CP, as much as I liked them, was a model of inefficiency, not AC.
Yes, the gov't helped AC, but it damned well helped CP and other Canadian carriers as well.
Yyz717, you may be some hotshot Director of Finance, but I am sure you don't know everything there is to know about running a good airline, and if I were you, I would stop wishing for Air Canada's demise, because it may come back on you. You might be the one looking at a pinkslip someday.

AC_B777
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:05 am

AC_B777....do not take potshots at my career. I do not proclaim to be a hotshot. Comments like this are immature, to say the least. I would never stoop to ridicule someone's career...shame on you.




I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
AC_B777
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:46 am

Yyz717,

I am sure you are very good at what you do, I am good at what I do too however, how do you think I feel when you say stupid things like wanting AC to fail and go under?
You might not ridicule people's careers, but when you say you would love to see AC go under, then you are saying you want to see people loose their jobs, and to me, that is immature.
I would'nt go around wanting your firm to go bankrupt. I would'nt want you to loose your job. However, it seems like you don't give a rats ass about people at AC getting pinkslips!! And it's not only people at AC that are going to loose their jobs. There are many other industry workers that will be affected.
You insult me personally when you tear my company apart.
As long as you continue to insult my company and say stupid things about it and the people who run it, then I will have nothing good to say about you!!!

AC_B777
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
johnnie
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:52 am

I absolutely agree wholeheardetly with the posting written by JAT.

I despise Milton, I despise Air Canada, and the Canadian airline industry WILL survive should Air Canada, excuse me, Air Ca-Ca, meet its demise.

Crash & Burn, Milton
Crash & Burn. What goes around, comes around.
I only pity the employees who will lose their jobs, that is, the POLITE & PROFESSIONAL Air Canada employees,
all 5 of them.

Where are the Max Wards??
 
Jubilee777
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Tue Oct 16, 2001 5:13 am

Question :

Would anyone still be saying the same thing if ONEX had successfully bought over AC and intergrate it into CP, and blaming CP if the exact situation was to happen?

Jubes
 
Teej13
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Tue Oct 16, 2001 5:49 am

Ah.. nothing like stepping into the fire on a nice Monday afternoon.

Here's my two cents:

AC_B777 - Yyz717 is not ridiculing your job - he's trying to get you to see the big picture. The point he's making is that if Air Canada had solid, consistent management, your job would be a heck of a lot more stable at the moment. Inefficiency is perpetrated from the top, and when it comes back full circle in harder economic times, those inefficencies are magnified. If you're good at what you do, and I'm sure you are, then whatever version of Air Canada that emerges from this will no doubt be better managed, and your job will be more secure.

As for the routings, there is a simple reason for this. Having spoken to folks at the Competition Bureau and Transport Canada, it was simply because of where the airlines were based at the time. CP was based in YYC, so they got the Asian routes, and with AC in YUL, they got Europe. The American routes were allocated in the same way. The government put all of the eggs into two different baskets, and when the Asian crisis hit, CP got burned.

Air Canada has been more concerned with their eroding market share and predatory pricing than actual running a solid business. Why? Because the government has their back, and they know it. Canada cannot be stuck without a major airline, Milton knows this, so he concentrated on other pursuits, like driving Westjet, Roots Air, Canjet, Royal, and C3000, among others, out of business.

Just my thoughts..
T.J.
 
jgardiner
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Tue Oct 16, 2001 5:51 am

Once AC was privatised, it became a publicly traded company complete with stockholders. Unfortunately, it is also the only company providing air service to many isolated communities. I say unfortunately because for that reason it cannot be allowed to fail even though as a mismanaged public company it should. In a perfect world no taxpayer money would be used to protect a stockholders investment but in this case it seems unavoidable. However, as a minimum price for bailing them out I think that the government should require a change of management.

 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Got Its Wish Let It Suffer

Tue Oct 16, 2001 6:01 am

Teej13, thanks for your comments.

AC_B777 thinks an attack on AC is an attack on AC employees. I had given up when I saw the emotive responses.

Regards
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
DeltaSFO
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To Those Of You Who Would Like To See AC Die

Tue Oct 16, 2001 6:02 am

Player4keeps, JAT, Yyz717, and especially Johnnie....

It's real easy to wish for an airline to die when your survival doesn't depend on the airline's, isn't it?

You people have absolutely no idea of what the big pitcure is all about here.

Almost every day, I read some of the stuff that gets posted on here and I thank God Almighty that you people aren't the ones running the world's airlines.

Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh, but as a former AC employee and current employee of an airline that, like AC, is struggling right now (only a few airlines in the world aren't struggling these days). It's really easy to criticize something when you're not a part of it. I hope those of you that have been critical of AC will stop being so malicious with your comments.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.