flying lsd
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2001 1:30 am

Air Belgium

Sun Oct 07, 2001 3:16 am

Everybody knows now the business plan of SN.
SABENA will reborn in a full private company without a state participation.
Actually the belgian government reach some investors to create the new company.

Some newspapers are relating today that 2 US company seems to be interested.

We have 6 majors : which one is so interested to have a kind of regionam company in the heart of Europe.

DL no they have a very strong partner AF
NW same with KL
US in a very sad financial health so wUA so strong in Europe with LH and SAS

rest only CO and AA

CO have a lot of routes to Europe
AA definily YES
they a very strong in LHR , AA BA strong in the UK market but in continental Europe the hub of Brussels seems to be a key market .

Air Belgium (ridiculous name) can transport for AA people across Europe an d why not to Africa.

AA brings people from AA gateway ( MIA ORD DFW ) to BRU and then to the rest of Europe.

AA BA is for the UK market.
AA "SN light version" for the rest of Europe.
The only problem since 11th september, AA have no $ for create a AA Europe.
But for the future of Oneworld , they needs BRussels Airport and his brand new terminal pier A due to open in may 2002.
THis pier will be the home of AA Europe and the hub of Oneworld in Continental Europe.

RE: Air Belgium

Sun Oct 07, 2001 3:44 am


Why not? To start with, they are one of the hardest hit of the US carriers. They have about as much money as SAirGroup has, and say that without the US government bailout, they would have had to declare Chapter 11 bankruptcy - and they still might. If what you claim is true, then they were obviously lying to Congress and the US government needs to take its money back.

Another problem is that as a non-EU carrier, they are not permitted to hold more than 49% of an EU airline - and if that airline flies outside the EU, 51% must be Belgian owned and controlled.

SN's African routes look good on paper, but the reality is that they earn mainly local currencies which cannot readily be recovered or converted.

Next, given the proximity of BRU to LHR, why on earth would OneWorld invest in this? Especially given the extraordinarily high costs of doing business in Belgium (the reason why they have the lowest inward investment rate of the whole of the EU - despite the presence of NATO and the EU); and in particular when BA and KLM are still talking about a possible merger? AMS is an infinitely better airport than BRU!

KLM and AMS would be considerably more viable than this hare-brained proposal!!

Anyway, doesn't Air Belgium already exist? I thought they were an Airtours subsidiary?
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri May 25, 2001 9:39 am

RE: Air Belgium

Sun Oct 07, 2001 3:54 am

You don't realize how much you have just made a fool of yourself !

AA is dying to invade BRU.

Go buy 20 model L1011 !
Hopefully you will have them assembled by next year, so you can say on this forum that you DO own a fleet of 20 wide bodies

RE: Air Belgium

Sun Oct 07, 2001 3:58 am

AA is dying to invade BRU. says Pothiabs. On what evidence to you base that? Off hand, I can think of half a dozen places they would rather 'invade' starting with more slots at LHR. BRU comes a very long way down their list!

Let's see the evidence then... Big grin Big grin Big grin
flying lsd
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2001 1:30 am

RE: Air Belgium

Sun Oct 07, 2001 4:53 am

ceilidh, I think you know everything but:

Air Belgium shut down operations 2 yeras ago.
SN bought the name at this time for a possible reuse a day.
good night " monsieur je sais tout"

RE: Air Belgium

Sun Oct 07, 2001 5:13 am

Flying lsd - perhaps you didn't notice, but my question about the name Air Belgium was precisely that - a question. I was unaware that SN had apparently bought the name - where did you get that from?
Posts: 4314
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Air Belgium

Sun Oct 07, 2001 6:27 pm

Forget CO as a SN partner, they will link up with KLM next year.

Anyway, AA will probably not give SN a dollar, they may only act as a partner. However, I can't see why AA would set up a hub at BRU as ZRH is a much better option (more O&D traffic at ZRH).

BTW foreign ownership rules prevent AA investing more than 25% (or 50% I'm not sure about this one) in an EU airline.

Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: Air Belgium

Sun Oct 07, 2001 7:56 pm

49.5% to be correct!
Posts: 695
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 3:59 am

RE: Air Belgium

Sun Oct 07, 2001 8:02 pm

for those who can read french...I don't know if serious
credits can be given to this information but it's from
Belga so....if it's true, ceilhid can start eating his tie!  Smile

Des investisseurs intéressés par Air Belgium

Mis en ligne le 06/10/2001
- - - - - - - - - - -

Deux compagnies aériennes américaines et deux investisseurs belges ont montré de l'intérêt pour prendre une participation dans la compagnie aéronautique qui devrait naître sur les restes de la Sabena, écrivent samedi les journaux du groupe RUG.

Het Belang van Limburg précise que le ministre des Entreprises et participations publiques, Rik Daems, lui a confirmé cet information mais qu'il n'a pas voulu donner de noms.

Le journal ajoute qu'une de ces compagnies serait American Airlines. Elle a déjà des accords avec la Sabena et serait surtout intéressée par l'aéroport de Bruxelles-national comme hub européen ainsi que par le fait qu'Air Belgium (le nom déjà donné par la presse flamande à la nouvelle Sabena) pourrait fournir des passagers européens pour les vols intercontinentaux d'American Airlines.

On a en outre appris samedi au cabinet du Premier ministre Guy Verhofstadt que le gouvernement rencontrera les syndicats de la Sabena lundi. Il n'était toutefois pas encore établi à quel moment précis la rencontre aurait lieu ni qui participerait à la rencontre.

Vendredi soir, l'intersyndicale de la Sabena avait "exigé" de rencontrer le Premier ministre "dans les 48 heures" pour lui demander des explications sur ces déclarations relatives au lancement d'une nouvelle société aéronautique.

Guy Verhofstadt avait commenté vendredi après-midi la décision du Conseil des ministres d'accorder un crédit de soudure d'un mois d'un montant de 5 milliards de FB (225 millions d'euros) à la Sabena. Le premier ministre avait expliqué que le but du gouvernement était d'utiliser cette période pour créer une nouvelle société avec des capitaux privés.

- - - - - - - - - - -
Posts: 4314
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Air Belgium

Sun Oct 07, 2001 8:14 pm

Just heard that BeCA has a plan to save Sabena . They seem to have 1 or more investor(s) and are willing to swap some part of their salary into a stake in the new airline. Don't know if they intend selling parts of SN (maybe soemone can answer this).

Allthough I agree that SN should remain flying to Kinshasa and some other African destinations (to counter AF's dominance) I still wonder if it's wise to start BRU-JNB again (too much competition on this route).

BTW does BeCA accept Mr. Chaffart as a possible SN (or Air Belgium) CEO?

Posts: 394
Joined: Sun May 07, 2000 4:50 am

RE: Air Belgium

Sun Oct 07, 2001 8:19 pm


Indeed Tca256, I've heard the same info on "Radio 21", and on "La Première". Moreover, newspapers like "Le Soir" told the same. And yesterday on the evening news on RTBF they told also the same... but they do not give any names, but they let suggest it might be AA... someone have any ideas? So I might easily let suppose that it is kind of serious information.

And as you correctly said, Ceilidh might eat his tie... maybe he'll stop posting message on this forum, when he'll eat his tie. We'll have some relax time over here.


RE: Air Belgium

Sun Oct 07, 2001 9:00 pm

Answer me this. Where is AA going to get all this money from - if it's needing to be bailed out by the US government? If they can afford to invest in dodgy airline projects, they can afford to hand back their bailout from Uncle Sam!

Don't forget either that as I've already said on a number of occasions, they are limited to a 49% equity stake and cannot control the operation.

Next, I'm stunned by the lack of knowledge shown by some on here of what it takes to put an airline together. Muller's plan took four months of preparation; and a further two of discussion - that's six months. SN has rather less than four weeks before the plug is pulled - less if the EU rules the Belgian government bailout illegal, as seems highly likely. And BeCA reckons they can get things in place in that time? Don't make me laugh! Big grin Big grin Big grin

Getting finance for an airline at the moment is about the same as trying to raise money to build a synagogue in Nuremberg in 1942. That's why QF had to back out of the AN takeover deal - no-one, but no-one, was interested in putting up a cent. Aircraft values are nose-diving. Loads are dropping. And the costs are still increasing.

Face facts people. Sabena is dead. I'll be more than happy to eat my tie - if those members on here will eat their uniform caps if the AA deal doesn't go ahead! Big grin Big grin Big grin

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