SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

It Just Shows A Ground Radar Is *critical*

Tue Oct 09, 2001 11:28 pm

It's good to know I'm not the only one who thinks Ground Radars should be compulsary everywhere.
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ANALYSIS-Ground radar key to airport safety
By Bradley Perrett, European aerospace & defence correspondent



LONDON, Oct 9 (Reuters) - Ground radar is a vital element in the safety of major airports with poor weather, aviation experts said on Tuesday, a day after 118 people died in a Milan runway collision that such equipment might have prevented.

Analysts were aghast at the news that Milan's Linate airport had not got around to installing a ground radar system that had been delivered years ago.

"There are airports around the world where ground radar is not installed," said Chris Yates, editor of Jane's Aviation Security. "But they are few and far between among major airports with high traffic density."

And especially among busy airports which, like Linate, get fogged in, he said.

On Monday a McDonnell Douglas MD-87 airliner of Scandinavian carrier SAS AB collided on its take-off run with a light aircraft whose crew had apparently taken a wrong turn in fog and taxied onto or very near the runway.

Ground radars are designed to prevent exactly that sort of accident, by giving controllers a picture of aircraft moving around the taxiways and an opportunity to correct mistakes.

"The radar makes it actively possible for the controllers to see that the aircraft is where the pilots say it is," said David Learmount, safety editor of industry weekly Flight International.


TAIPEI CRASH

Monday's crash was the second disaster in a year in which an airport's lack of ground radar was criticised.

At Taipei last year the crew of a Singapore Airlines (Singapore: SIAL.SI - news) Ltd

Boeing 747-400 turned onto a disused runway in bad weather, tried to take off and hit construction equipment.

An investigation into the crash, in which 83 died, blamed the pilots for their wrong turn and the airport for poor signage, but other critics noted that the controllers had no ground radar with which to monitor the plane's movements.

Radar is not the only way of controlling aircraft movements at airports, even in zero visibility. Signs and maps should tell pilots where they are and controllers can ask for updates from them to confirm that nothing is amiss.

Lars Mydland, head of SAS's Flight Operations, told reporters on Tuesday that a ground radar "is just one of a number of means being used to maintain safety" and he declined to speculate on whether the accident could have been prevented had the radar been in use.

But the experts said ground radar was an important back-up in case other methods failed, as they often did.

Ground radar is not compulsory, and its usefulness depends on how often poor weather diminishes visibility at an airport.

Australian air-safety expert Macarthur Job said that to his knowledge no airport had the equipment in Australia.

Australia has an outstanding air-safety record -- but also, Job noted, outstanding weather
ANALYSIS-Ground radar key to airport safety
By Bradley Perrett, European aerospace & defence correspondent



LONDON, Oct 9 (Reuters) - Ground radar is a vital element in the safety of major airports with poor weather, aviation experts said on Tuesday, a day after 118 people died in a Milan runway collision that such equipment might have prevented.

Analysts were aghast at the news that Milan's Linate airport had not got around to installing a ground radar system that had been delivered years ago.

"There are airports around the world where ground radar is not installed," said Chris Yates, editor of Jane's Aviation Security. "But they are few and far between among major airports with high traffic density."

And especially among busy airports which, like Linate, get fogged in, he said.

On Monday a McDonnell Douglas MD-87 airliner of Scandinavian carrier SAS AB collided on its take-off run with a light aircraft whose crew had apparently taken a wrong turn in fog and taxied onto or very near the runway.

Ground radars are designed to prevent exactly that sort of accident, by giving controllers a picture of aircraft moving around the taxiways and an opportunity to correct mistakes.

"The radar makes it actively possible for the controllers to see that the aircraft is where the pilots say it is," said David Learmount, safety editor of industry weekly Flight International.


TAIPEI CRASH

Monday's crash was the second disaster in a year in which an airport's lack of ground radar was criticised.

At Taipei last year the crew of a Singapore Airlines (Singapore: SIAL.SI - news) Ltd

Boeing 747-400 turned onto a disused runway in bad weather, tried to take off and hit construction equipment.

An investigation into the crash, in which 83 died, blamed the pilots for their wrong turn and the airport for poor signage, but other critics noted that the controllers had no ground radar with which to monitor the plane's movements.

Radar is not the only way of controlling aircraft movements at airports, even in zero visibility. Signs and maps should tell pilots where they are and controllers can ask for updates from them to confirm that nothing is amiss.

Lars Mydland, head of SAS's Flight Operations, told reporters on Tuesday that a ground radar "is just one of a number of means being used to maintain safety" and he declined to speculate on whether the accident could have been prevented had the radar been in use.

But the experts said ground radar was an important back-up in case other methods failed, as they often did.

Ground radar is not compulsory, and its usefulness depends on how often poor weather diminishes visibility at an airport.

Australian air-safety expert Macarthur Job said that to his knowledge no airport had the equipment in Australia.

Australia has an outstanding air-safety record -- but also, Job noted, outstanding weather
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: It Just Shows A Ground Radar Is *critical*

Tue Oct 09, 2001 11:30 pm

It's not like the SAS pilot chose the wrong runway.
 
hkgspotter1
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:43 pm

RE: It Just Shows A Ground Radar Is *critical*

Tue Oct 09, 2001 11:36 pm

Greg,

I was going to say the same thing. This was a terrible accident due to fog and the biz jet pilots mistake.

The SQ accident was due to the pilots mistake, even when other crew members said that the cockpit instruments should something was wrong he did not listen to them. And said he could see the runway. He never checked WHICH runway.
 
SN-A330
Posts: 1052
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:38 am

RE: It Just Shows A Ground Radar Is *critical*

Tue Oct 09, 2001 11:41 pm

I thought I heard on the Belgian news that Milan Linate's ground radar had been broken for almost a year before the accident !?

Regards, SN-A330
I would rather be flying...
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: It Just Shows A Ground Radar Is *critical*

Tue Oct 09, 2001 11:45 pm

One thing that can be done - eliminate all taxiways which cross runways. I know Zurich has this problem as well - all flights landing on runway 14 must cross another runway (28?) which is almost always in use.

So what if it takes a little longer to taxi to the terminal. I'd prefer that to the alternative.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
carmy
Posts: 590
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 12:00 am

RE: It Just Shows A Ground Radar Is *critical*

Tue Oct 09, 2001 11:50 pm

about the SQ inccident, the airport did not close the runway 5R. the runway remained open like all other normal operating runways and there were no signs to show that the runway was closed. if the airport had just followed international policy of putting a yellow sign with a cross on it, the accident would never have happened and SQ would have maintained its perfect safety record.
 
iwantanL1011
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 12:24 am

No Taxiways Cross Runways?

Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:30 am

i dont think thats practical... Say you have 3 paralell runways.... 02/20 Left, Center and Right...

Can you imagine the ground traffic problems if all aircraft
had to taxi to the end of each runway, then merge with other traffic, to taxi to the terminal??

i think the runway incursions would be more likely!

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SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: It Just Shows A Ground Radar Is *critical*

Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:40 am

Greg and HKGSpotter1: Yeah yeah whatever, your attempt of trying to divert the subject failed. Goodbye

Well I was very angry when I heard about the radar problem. It just doesn't make sense.

It is foggy. You can't see yer planes. Your "eyes" is the ground radar which is non-operational. How do you see the planes???

It doesn't make sense!
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Guest

RE: It Just Shows A Ground Radar Is *critical*

Wed Oct 10, 2001 3:40 am

Having no taxiways on teh aside of runways seems silly, can you imaine how you it would take to taxi down a 10,000 foot runway in a C-152.
The policy works 99.9% of the time, just sometimes pilots get destracted, got, and just keep bimbling!
Iain
 
ra-85154
Posts: 601
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:16 pm

RE: It Just Shows A Ground Radar Is *critical*

Wed Oct 10, 2001 3:45 am

After Tenerife 1977, anyone involved in aviation should be aware of the importance of ground radar ESPECIALLY when there's fog. Important lessons are not learned again, like so many times. Just a waste of lives.
 
Ben2
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:30 am

RE: It Just Shows A Ground Radar Is *critical*

Wed Oct 10, 2001 3:50 am

It's good to know I'm not the only one who thinks Ground Radars should be compulsary everywhere.
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It's good to know that a 13-15 year old thinks so highly of himself.
 
Ben2
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:30 am

RE: It Just Shows A Ground Radar Is *critical*

Wed Oct 10, 2001 3:51 am

It is foggy. You can't see yer planes. Your "eyes" is the ground radar which is non-operational.


How do you see the planes???



In your mind.


 
ra-85154
Posts: 601
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:16 pm

RE: It Just Shows A Ground Radar Is *critical*

Wed Oct 10, 2001 4:03 am

What makes it worse to me is that I learned the Linate airport HAS a ground radar already for about a year but has not made it operational.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: It Just Shows A Ground Radar Is *critical*

Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:12 am

Yeah, it broke.

Ben2: Hmmm. Is that a compliment?
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.