MAH4546
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AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Wed Oct 10, 2001 12:37 pm

Air Canada Regional is ending service on the follwing five trans-Border routes:

Edmonton/YEG-Denver/DEN

Montreal/YUL-Albany/ALB
Montreal/YUL-Portland/PWM

Toronto/YYZ-Cincinatti/CVG
Toronto/YYZ-Kalamazoo/AZO

a.
 
BA
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Wed Oct 10, 2001 12:45 pm

Quite sad............
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Wed Oct 10, 2001 12:57 pm

The YEG-DEN surprises me. It's a 2x daily 146...I guess related to their retirement of the 146.....but why not replace with the CRJ or a daily 732?

Whatever.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:01 pm

Just wait eighteen months. We will be seeing airlines adding routes at the same rate they are dumping them right now.
a.
 
BA
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:01 pm

I was surprised too. YEG-DEN has been in service for almost 5 years now. Same frequency, same equipment. Has never changed until now.

Sad time for aviation.  Sad
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:02 pm

Mah4546,

I hope so.....
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
MAH4546
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:15 pm

The YWG-DEN cut is surprising, especially since all the other routes are, I think, fairly new (not sure about PWM, but the rest were launched during the summer).
a.
 
Samurai 777
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Wed Oct 10, 2001 4:28 pm

The YEG-DEN cut was a little surprising to me but then again, look at the equipment they were using - BAe 146s!

Not only did AC say it was planning to ground the 146 fleet probably temporarily, I've seen an article in the Edmonton Journal that said there was a possibilty that AC would opt to reroute ALL tranborder traffic to YEG through YYC! This was only a few days after Sept. 11, although I cannot remember exactly when.
 
Lubicon
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Thu Oct 11, 2001 12:30 am

Here is an article from the Edmonton Sun. It sounds like the YEG-DEN cut is permanent and won't be replaced, at least by Air Canada.

Air Canada cites costs as it chops another Edmonton flight

By TIMOTHY LE RICHE, EDMONTON SUN

Edmonton's been grounded again.

A drop in passengers since the Sept. 11 terrorism attack has forced Air Canada to cut its Edmonton to Denver flight, but a spokesman admitted the route wasn't profitable prior to that anyway.

Air Canada's regional carriers announced yesterday a 24% cut in capacity for its winter schedule, effective Nov. 4 to April 6, including cancellation of Edmonton's Denver flight. Other major cities lost flights as well.

Airline spokesman Dennis Erickson said the cut of the Edmonton-Denver route, which went twice daily non-stop, is permanent.

"All changes will be looked at again prior to implementing our summer schedule," said Erickson. "But at this time it (the Edmonton-Denver cut) is a permanent change.

"We had to stem our losses. These capacity adjustments are to reduce our costs, and restructuring to support a reduced fleet and revenue base. We have seen systemwide anywhere between 40% and a 50% reduction in bookings in the past three to four weeks."

The AirBC non-stop to Denver was announced in mid-1998 and hailed by Mayor Bill Smith and Edmonton Airports as a breakthrough. It was the city's first new, international, non-stop flight since scheduled passenger flights were consolidated at the Edmonton International Airport two years prior.

But in April 1999, Delta Airlines pulled out of Edmonton, killing three flights a day to Salt Lake City.

That blow was softened by Canadian Airlines' launch of non-stop service to Chicago later that year, but that flight was killed earlier this year after the Air Canada takeover.

Edmonton also lost Air Canada non-stop service to Montreal earlier this year. The Alberta capital, the hottest economy in the nation according to the Conference Board of Canada, is left with non-stop U.S. flights to Seattle by Horizon Air, Minneapolis by Northwest Airlines and Los Angeles on Air Canada.

The cut becomes an "inconvenience" for Edmonton-based PCL Construction Group Inc. which maintains its U.S. headquarters in Denver, and uses the AirBC flight regularly.

"Edmontonians will have to go down to Calgary to link into Denver," said Ross Grieve, PCL president and CEO. "I'm sad to see Edmonton losing another linkage to a major hub in the United States. That's tough for Edmonton and our airport authority that fought so hard to get it."

Jim Edwards of Economic Development Edmonton said Air Canada used the older BA146 jet on the route. With proper marketing and better aircraft, the route could be profitable, said Edwards.

"I believe the route is viable," said Edwards. "The equipment that was on it did not help. Edmonton is the hottest economy in the country, perhaps the continent. Edmontonians travel, and if service is provided they will use it."

Mayor Bill Smith said he's heard United Airlines is looking at the Edmonton-Denver route.

"Some airline will go where the market is, and there is definitely a market here for Edmonton-Denver," said Smith.
 
AFa340-300E
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Thu Oct 11, 2001 1:08 am

Hello,

Were they using BAe 146s on all of the above mentioned routes please?
Was the BAe 146 retirement plan already due to take place before 11 September?

I'm not sure, but has Air Canada modified its position at Montréal - Dorval (YUL) please?


Thank you,

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
yow
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RE: Yyz717

Thu Oct 11, 2001 2:30 am

AC doesn't use RJs west of YWG. It wouldn't make sense for them to have only a couple RJs out west to save a couple of routes. However, cutting YEG-DEN is surprising. You would think that they would keep the route and replace it with a mainline 319 1x as opposed to 2x with the 146. This would still cut capacity slightly and timed right to connect with UA in DEN could be profitable.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Yyz717

Thu Oct 11, 2001 3:00 am

YOW...thanks for the update on the CRJ usage...AC used to operate it to YEG/YYC....I wasn't aware it was no longer used west of YWG. You're right....it wouldn't make sense to base 1 or 2 CRJ's in YEG for the DEN route.

Regards
Neil/Toronto
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Thu Oct 11, 2001 3:09 am

alain,
No, AC wasn't already planning to retire the 146's before 9/11. Even though they're not real popular, I think the leases were all recently renewed. BTW, this was operated by Air BC, right? How many 146's do ABC have, as compared to Air Nova, who I assume have the rest of them?
Next flight.... who knows.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Thu Oct 11, 2001 3:18 am

AirBC and Air Nova each operate 5 146's. The 2 fleets are separate and are not integrated from a scheduling standpoint. Eastern terminus for the AirBC 146 is YWG. Western terminus for the Air Nova 146 is YOW.

Neil/Toronto

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Samurai 777
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Thu Oct 11, 2001 5:06 am

Interesting article from the Journal, Lubicon. While it's a sad thing to see the YEG-DEN route cut, I'm sure that this route will be up and running once again, but if it does, it may not be AC doing it.

I don't think this route will stay absent permanently. Eventually, it'll rematerialize, but not for a few years. Despite what Bill Smith (he's often too optimistic), the Mayor, says, I doubt even UAL will even consider YEG for at least a few years because it's being affected no differently than any other airline, including Air Canada.
 
777-200
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Thu Oct 11, 2001 5:06 am

Wasn't the route to CVG a Fokker 70?
Another Day, Another Dollar.... Young Jeezy
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Thu Oct 11, 2001 5:23 am

YYZ-CVG was an F28.....route started during the Comair strike. Comair has now restarted YYZ-CVG.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Samurai 777
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Thu Oct 11, 2001 5:25 am

777-200, AC doesn't use Fokker F70s. The regional flies older F28-1000s instead.
 
Maniac
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Thu Oct 11, 2001 5:27 am

The route to PWM has been around for a couple of years, and was operated with the fantastic Beechcraft 1900. Sad to see it go, because it was the only scheduled international flight out of the "Portland International Jetport." I guess if you can't fill 19 seats between two cities than you are really hurting for traffic.
 
flyyul
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AFA340-300E

Thu Oct 11, 2001 6:50 am

Bonjour Alain,

Oui! Air Canada has cut Porltand.Me, and Albany from Montreal. Other cuts include London,Ont and St.John's for the winter.

Mark
 
ywg777
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Thu Oct 11, 2001 1:28 pm

I still think AC could pull off YWG-DEN again. Winnipeg is under a major economic boomb right now and is getting alot of new flights here. ACV does fly the CRJ and 2 737's to ORD but alot of pax wanted denver to keep on going. That was not a good call by AC. I hope then we get a LAX flight to susbitute with it.
Its sad to see both YEG-DEN flights gfop. Maybe 1 but not 2. That is surprising aand not only that YVR-DEN is gone which makes me wonder where the BAE-146's are being deployed.
YWG777
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Thu Oct 11, 2001 1:41 pm

The cancellation of YEG/YWG-DEN was driven more by the retirement of the 146 than perhaps by the underlying economics of the route, I think.

Hopefully AC will restart YWG-DEN w at least a CRJ.

Neil/Toronto

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ywg777
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Fri Oct 12, 2001 12:52 am

I am able to get acess to AC loads and believe it or not YWG-DEN did really well. CRJ I would think would work on the route or even a 737 for that matter. if any airport needs transborder service in Canada right nopw its YEG/YWG. Both airports are lacking transborder service. YVR,YUL,YYZ and YYC are just boombing with flights and right now Winnipegs economic growth is doing really well. The beast in 10 years for that matter. Houses are going up like weeds hrre and the demand for more routes out of Winnipeg International airport is a key factor as new business grow here. Still would be nice even to see AC doing LAX out of YWG if DEN didn't work.
YWG777
 
Bush
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Fri Oct 12, 2001 1:26 am

He's backkkkkkk! Nooooooooooooo!
 
Samurai 777
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Fri Oct 12, 2001 1:53 am

Yyz717 - I'm not sure if a CRJ-200 has the range to go from YEG to DEN fully loaded, but if it does, then that's great. DEN is higher in altitude than even YYC, which might mean greater fuel burn in takeoffs. Although the longest route served by AC's CRJs is - or was YYZ - Kansas City, which is about 2 hours and 15 minutes, I still think YEG and DEN are even farther apart than that.

YWG777, where did you get info on the load factors from YWG to DEN? I thought poor load factors was a factor in AC cutting the YWG-DEN route. While Winnipeg seems to be doing okay, its economic growth doesn't even compare with that of Calgary's or Edmonton's. Even then, YYC and YEG are reporting cuts in overall air service or will likely be getting cuts soon. There is reason to believe the same will happen to YWG. You have to understand that the airline industry is taking a huge hit in passenger numbers and revenue. And on top of all that, there's a national recession looming.
 
ywg777
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:07 am

I am a gold wing ambasador at YWG I get the loads to know how many people are on the flights. that last week was pretty good averaging 60 + people per flight.
YWG777
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:07 am

Ya, maybe the YWG-DEN is too far for the CRJ.

Perhaps UA Express might start DEN-YEG/YWG with their DEN-based 146's?? UA would be ground handled by AC.

Anyway, this will be a boost to NW in both YEG & YWG...they are already the largest transborder carriers in those mkts. Maybe NW will beef up service with an addl flight or larger gauge to YWG & YEG.

AC still flies YWG-ORD correct?

Neil/Toronto


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ywg777
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Fri Oct 12, 2001 4:07 am

NW has 6 daily YWG-MSP flights already. 1 of therm is operated by Mesaba which they fly a Sabb 340 with. AC still flys YWG-ORD with 3 daily flights 2 of them are operated with a 737-200 and 1 of them is operated with a CRJ.I don't know if UA would be able to use their BAE-146's as I think they are for mainly smaller routes like DEN-COS, DEN-FAR just to name a few. If UA has extra 146's then maybe they can deploy them on DEN-YEG, DEN-YWG just 1 flight a day. YWG used to have the UA 146's back in the early 1980's operating 2 times a day.
We will just wait and see what happens.
YWG777
 
fallingeese
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Fri Oct 12, 2001 4:09 am

I'm surprised by the move of eliminating Edmonton - Denver mainly because of the amount of traffic on nearly the same flight out of Calgary. United fills up it's 737's on a constant basis.

I'm not sure who said it that AC might be changed it's transborder city from YYC to YEG, but that has got to be nuts, or another dumb Milton idea. You'd have to go north to go south, not to mention use more fuel which cost more money...which Air Canada doesn't have.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
flyyul
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Fri Oct 12, 2001 5:35 am

I remember Mr.Milton telling the Winnipeg press, that if he didnt have enough pax on that route, he would cut it. He was complaining of poor loads..

But..Mr.Milton cut YUL-DEn with a 68% load factor, and a 20cent RPM yield, that is 4 cent above the average yield for the AC network....AC is a weird airline...if nobody can support flights to DEN, Canada as a whole (I exclude YYZ) is in trouble...its a must have destination/hub.

Mark
 
BA
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:00 am

I remember when AC Regional started the YEG-DEN service. They started it quite a while ago, shortly after DEN opened and it hasn't changed since. Same aircraft, and same frequency.

Its strange that they are all of a sudden dropping it completely after being in service unchanged for almost 5 years.

Not sure why it was dropped. I do find Air Canada a bit of a strange airline. They started YUL-DEN a while ago on an A319, and then dropped it shortly after! I've heard that, the flight was PACKED! Yet it was dropped....

And yes, YYC is a very full flight, before the attack, UA was thinking of upgrading it to an A320 because of the loads.

Sad time in aviation.

Regards.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
ywg777
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Sat Oct 13, 2001 12:34 am

when did you hear Robert Milton say that to the Winnipeg Press? I didn't read about in the paper or see that on the news. I am sure the airline industry will re-bound very soon as security measures have been in-forced tightly now.The skies will be safer because of it. My predicions is new routes will be comming hopefully by spring is when traffic should re-bound and get to normal around here.
YWG777
 
Samurai 777
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Sat Oct 13, 2001 2:59 am

In the unlikely event that United or even Continental (there's an article on that in the Edmonton Journal today, BTW, but I'm skeptical that either will start service to YEG anytime soon) does start service to YEG, what kind of a/c would one suppose might be used?

If it's UAL, then it's likely to be a 737-500, 737-300 or A319 at least once daily to DEN.

If CO were to fly into YEG, it's likely to be probably a 737-500 to IAH or DEN once daily, believe it or not.

For either service, this is a slight overall capacity drop. When you think about it, 2xBAe 146 flights a day to DEN is about 154 seats (an AirBC BAe 146-200 has 77 seats). A single 737-500 flown by UAL would have about 125 seats in total, for instance.

UAL was planning to put up service to YEG, but that was before those terrorist decided to their horrendous attacks on Sept. 11. With huge cuts already in the offing among US carriers, UAL is likely to actually delay any addition of service to any Canadian destinations for at least 6 months to a year, or until business picks up. That's why I'm skeptical about all this.

Please check out this article below if you will.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Denver flights up for grabs
Continental, United looked at to fill void left by Air Canada


Bryant Avery, Journal Business Writer
Edmonton Journal

Friday, October 12, 2001

The Journal

Continental Airlines has joined United Airlines as a possible carrier between Edmonton and Denver when Air Canada abandons the route, says Sid Hanson, chairman of Edmonton Regional Airports Authority.

Earlier this week, AirBC, a division of Air Canada, announced that on Nov. 4 it will axe the popular route, which links Edmonton-area businesses with destinations in Texas and Arizona.

"Continental is a very potential supplier of that route," Hanson said Thursday. "Continental is very interested in Edmonton."

Prior to the Sept. 11 suicide air attacks on New York and Washington, D.C., Edmonton and Continental officials had discussed initiating direct flights between the Alberta capital and Houston, where Continental is based.

"We are actively pursuing them now" by phone, Hanson said.

Not that United Airlines is out of the picture. "United is still the prime candidate," Hanson said.

United uses Denver as a primary hub. For Continental, Denver is a secondary hub.

Hanson predicted Edmonton will gain a new direct connection to the United States within six months, barring further atrocities. Possible destinations include Denver, Houston, San Francisco or Chicago.

Denver is the favourite, Hanson said. "Whoever takes this up will do very well."

Ridership levels on Air Canada flights to Denver were over 70 per cent, he said, but Air Canada had to share revenue with connecting airlines -- especially United -- and used old, inefficient four-engine planes.

"That's the distressing part of this," Hanson said. "Air Canada couldn't make money, where others potentially can."

Jim Edwards, president of Economic Development Edmonton, agreed the Denver route is a money-maker, but backed away Thursday from guaranteeing that United will take it up.

"I'm not at all sure what the odds are," he said, "but they are better than even (money)."

At United's headquarters Thursday, spokesman Chris Braithwaite was non-committal: "We don't talk about our plans going forward." But in the next breath, he said United has cut 26 per cent of its flights.

In Edmonton, PCL Construction Group executive Alan Bodie hopes flights to Denver will survive. Half of PCL's $3.4 billion in revenue is generated in the United States, said the president of the PCL Constructors division, and Denver is the company's U.S. base.

PCL averages about 20 to 30 flights per month through Denver.

The company also needs to get to Chicago where it is constructing a $500-million, 1,100-megawatt power plant. Air Canada eliminated direct flights to Chicago in February.

"One by one, direct flights to our areas of development have disappeared," Bodie said.

The loss of the Denver flight also makes life more difficult for Dreco Energy Services, the Edmonton arm of Houston-based National Oilwell. "That one flight was very good to us," said local manager Ken Singh.

In the past, half-a-dozen executives routinely flew to Houston via Denver twice a month. Without a Denver route, Dreco personnel have to go through Calgary and Salt Lake City, or Minneapolis, the Northwest Airlines hub. On occasion, staff have even gone via Toronto, Singh said.

Bodie and Singh said their companies are cutting back on flights, for reasons of security and savings. Bodie said he's using more teleconference calls.

Singh said Dreco has 13 employees providing support to service rigs in Oman, Alaska, South Africa, Brazil and Venezuela.

© Copyright 2001 Edmonton Journal
 
fallingeese
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Sat Oct 13, 2001 7:52 am

I can see both United and Continental filling up their planes full into YEG, especially since they are into Calgary. There are very few flights leaving Calgary bound for the U.S. that aren't near capacity. Northwest, Delta, Continental, United and so on are always near capacity. The Customs is a madhouse during peak times.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
Bush
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Sat Oct 13, 2001 8:13 am

The reason transborder flights out of YYC have high load factors is because all YEG traffic is funnelled through there.

If airlines start adding transborder flights directly to YEG, they will be cannibalizing existing YYC flights. Why should they spread their Alberta services between two cities when it can be more effectively concentrated in one? It doesnt seem to make sense, and is probably why most of the US carriers have fled from YEG.

While it would be nice for YEG to attract some new US routes, I don't think it will happen...

-Bush
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Sat Oct 13, 2001 8:47 am

Bush, you may well be correct about YYC being the 'natural' Alberta hub, much to the frustration of YEG.

Ultimately, it will come down to market forces. If all US carriers operating out of YYC feel they are losing too many YEG passenger to NW (and Horizon) nonstop service from YEG, they may well restart their own nonstop YEG flights.

Don't forget...these are not normal times.....many of these YEG service cuts could be restarted in the next year. Alberta has a very strong economy!

Regards
Neil/Toronto
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ywg777
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Sat Oct 13, 2001 9:22 am

I didn't think CO had a secondary base in DEN. If YEG gets back on track then thats a good thing. It looks like alot of business depend on that Denver flight. Hopefully United will pull it off and start flying a 737 up to Edmonton.
 
BA
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Sat Oct 13, 2001 9:57 am

YWG777,

They don't. I find that very strange when they said that. CO only has 3 gates here in DEN.

Regards.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
fallingeese
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Sat Oct 13, 2001 10:06 am

Denver is one of the most logical cities to fly from out of Alberta, alot of business is done within the two cities. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few flights into YEG in the upcomming months but nothing spectacular.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Regional Trans-border Cuts At DEN, CVG, More...

Sat Oct 13, 2001 10:48 am

CO used to have a DEN hub (at Stapleton actually) but it was closed. They then built up CLE as their 3rd hub.

It is very unlikely that CO will start Canada service from a non-hub city like DEN.

Neil/Toronto

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.