Guest

A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Fri Oct 12, 2001 10:07 pm

Haaretz,
Last update - 13:19 12/10/2001

Russian airliner hit by an anti-aircraft missile, Ukraine admits

By The Associated Press

MOSCOW - The chief of the commission investigating the crash of a Russian airliner over the Black Sea last week said Friday that the aircraft had been hit by an anti-aircraft missile, the Interfax news agency reported.

The Tu-154 airliner went down on Oct. 4 after an explosion on board. All 78 people, most of them recent Russian immigrants to Israel, were killed. U.S. officials said the crash had been caused by an S-200 missile fired mistakenly by Ukrainian forces during military exercises on the Crimean Peninsula, which juts into the Black Sea.

Vladimir Rushailo, head of the investigatory commission, told reporters in the southern Russian city of Sochi that the plane had indeed been hit by a missile, Interfax reported.

"The Tu-154 flying from Tel Aviv to Novosibirsk crashed because it was hit by the warhead of an anti-aircraft missile," Rushailo said, adding that investigators were continuing to examine fragments of the downed plane.

Pressure has been mounting on Ukraine's leadership to take responsibility for the crash. Ukrainian military officials have heatedly denied they were at fault, but Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma said Thursday that Defense Minister Oleksandr Kuzmuk had submitted his resignation immediately after the tragedy. The resignation was rejected.

On Friday, for the first time, a Ukrainian official admitted that the plane may have been hit by Ukrainian fire. The reason for the crash could be an unintentional hit by an S-200 missile during the Ukrainian air defense exercises, Yevhen Marchuk, the head of the Ukrainian Security Council and another member of the commission of inquiry, told reporters.




-Will we ever know if it was really an accident?


 
transswede
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Fri Oct 12, 2001 10:59 pm

>-Will we ever know if it was really an accident?

What's that supposed to mean... Do you think anyone would have done this on PURPOSE???
 
Guest

RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Fri Oct 12, 2001 11:38 pm

I'm quite convinced it was a terrible mistake, and it seems that mistakes are not so exceptionnal in the Ukrainian army; but the question of a planified attack comes also in my thoughts.
Do you think anyone would have done this on PURPOSE???
I don't think it, but to find "anyone" would not be too difficult...

 
cfalk
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 12:30 am

Sure it was an accident. But this shows that the old Soviet mentality of "Deny Everything" is still alive and well. The same thing happened with KAL 007.

Can you just imagine being the operator of the missile system, suddenly realizing that you just screwed up royally and killed 78 people? How do you live with that knowledge?

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
sterne82
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 1:02 am

When I told you, it was an Ukrainian missile, you told me; "to check my sources, or to go playing somewhere else..." But in fact, I was true... Without any comments!

Benjamin
 
Guest

RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 1:18 am

Ben, who was so rude and arrogant with you?
 
airmale
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 2:12 am

At least the Ukranians are honest enough to accept it, unlike the TWA 800 incident Smile
.....up there with the best!
 
slawko
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 4:37 am

"and it seems that mistakes are not so exceptionnal in the Ukrainian army; "

Whats that supposed to mean??
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
cfalk
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 5:10 am

Airmale:

1) The Ukrainians have not yet admitted to anything. They have denied it, in spite of everyone else knowing they did it, with satellite tracks and everything. Old habits die hard, I guess.

2) There is no credible evidence of anything like that with TWA 800.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
LY744
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 5:16 am

Sterne82:

If you did say that it was a Ukrainian missile before it was officially announced, you deserved whatever you got. I don't care if you've seen a missile hit the a/c with your own eyes.

Airmale:

Stick to the topic, will ya? We all know you like conspiracy theories. No one shot down TWA800. Face it. I know you think that the US (Governemnt, blah, blah, blah...) is the big Satan and all that kind of crap. Keep it to yourself. Enough is enough.


Anyways, apparently I have wasted a lot of time defending the possibility that it was not a Ukrainian missile for nothing. If they are going to take the blame for it, they should get their story straight:
A) The SA-5 (Russia: S-200), does not have a naval version. They initially said that it was a naval excercise. Apparently it wasn't.
B) They also said that they were practicing against targets flying below 1km (3300ft). 1) The Tu-154 was at 11km (36000ft) 2) The SA-5 is extremely uneffective against targets at low altitudes, thus, it could not have been part of an excercise that dealt with such targets.
That probably means that they were also shooting at targets at higher altitudes, closer to civilian airliners.
C) Why were the Russians so quick to defend the Ukrainians? Even the commander of the RuAF, who was overlooking the Ukrainian excercise said that they could not have shot that a/c down.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Spitfire
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 5:31 am

"Why were the Russians so quick to defend the Ukrainians? Even the commander of the RuAF, who was overlooking the Ukrainian excercise said that they could not have shot that a/c down."


Are they so bad in this kind of shooting????  Wink/being sarcastic
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Guest

RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 7:49 am

Airmale, it has been nearly proven by people a lot smarter than you (surpirse surpirse) that it was a center fuel tank explosion. No missile fragments were ever found.

Whoops!
 
transswede
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 7:53 am

Cfalk:
>But this shows that the old Soviet mentality of "Deny
>Everything" is still alive and well.

That is probably true, but they did not (and still don't) have a monopoly on that...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

(And no, that does NOT mean that I think that TWA-800 was a shoot-down)
 
ukair
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 9:15 am


Lessons do not seem to have been learned sufficiently well enough regarding the firing of missiles by the military at civilian aircraft. Not that long ago there was the shooting down of an Iran Air Airbus by the USA Navy, mistaken for an incoming missile.

 
Wasilenko
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 12:22 pm

"But this shows that the old Soviet mentality of "Deny
Everything" is still alive and well."

I don't think that this statement here applys to the accident, it is clear that Ukranians did not want to shot the Tu-154 down.

According to NTV.ru when Tu-154 was hit its radio station was damaged but did work for few seconds. "WHERE DID IT HIT?" were the last words of the captain. This clearly indicates that the crew knew that they were hit by a missile.

Ukraine will have to pay Sibir over $10M just for the lost airliner.

Wasilenko
 
yka
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 1:31 pm

Didn't the US "accidently" shoot down a civilan A300 in the persian gulf? If anyone has any info on this I'd like to know if the military admited to this atrocity imedietly(sp?) or after a while like in this case.
 
cfalk
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 1:49 pm

When the US Navy shot down the Iran Air A300 (and remember, they were in combat), the U.S. admitted to their part in the tragedy right away.

All I meant to say was that these things will happen. It may be stupid, tragic, and avoidable, but it will happen. But it is so idiotic to think that you can hide a truth of this magnitude - there is too much evidence. Denying the facts was common in the Bad Old Days when they controlled all information channels un their country. Now, denying it only makes matters worse.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
sterne82
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 8:10 pm

About the A300B4 which have been shooted by US navy, they first thought that it was A C-130 or a F-14, but when they saw one "slice" of the plane coming down with "Iran" written on it, they understood their mistake...

Moreover, The captain of the ship have never been blamed, and the imlages which was recorded by the journalist who was on the ship have been put somewhere far from the TV chanels.

Cheers
 
jaysit
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RE: A Ukrainian Missile Downed The Sibir Tupolev

Sat Oct 13, 2001 11:48 pm

The Ukrainians are finally admitting to it. Old habits of denial in the name of the State die hard, I guess.

There is NO - repeat NO, ZIP, NADA - evidence for any missile launch against TWA 800. Read the NTSB report if you have questions.

When the US military shot down the Iran Air A300, we accepted responsibility for the act, but then went into a tailspin of justifying the mistake using all sorts of lousy reasons that appeared to implicate the Iranians. Not the proudest moment for the US.

I hope that the US military is very cautious this time around. An accidental shooting down of a civilian airliner will seriously damage our credibility and will cause havoc in the Middle East
Atheism is Myth Understood.