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LAX
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Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 1:24 pm

Can anybody explain how to tell for sure the difference between a B747-100 with 10 upper-deck windows and a B742?

These are both 741's.......

Click for large version
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Photo © Alastair T. Gardiner



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Photo © Alastair T. Gardiner



And here we have a 742, which appears identical to the 741 above that has more than 3 upper-deck windows..........

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Photo © Konstantin von Wedelstaedt



And now, to further confuse everybody, below I've found pictures showing what are labelled as 747-200's, but with only THREE upper windows! (Didn't think anything but the -100's had the 3-window configuration.) (Mis-labelled possibly??)

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Photo © Eduard Marmet



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Photo © Eduard Marmet



Any thoughts??

 
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yyz717
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 1:27 pm

All early-model 747's (whether -100s or -200s, althought mostly -200s) were built with 3 windows...as the intent was for the upper decks to be used exclusively as a lounge. Most customers realized the revenue potential of seating pax in the upper deck and the windows became standard.

Neil/Toronto
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 1:28 pm

Oops! I meant most early 747's were -100s, not -200s.

/Neil


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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LAX
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 1:33 pm

In reviewing the above pictures of my original post I thought of this.........

I see that most (if not all) B741's are equipped with P&W JT9D engines. While the 742 pictured above has GE's (I think; or RR's. Anyway, a NON-P&W type.)

Is this possibly the only way to tell the -100 from the -200's??

Just a thought.

(However.....Take note that both of the 742's with just 3 windows have P&W engines. I'm inclined to think these two pics are mislabelled, and should say B741's. I'm probably wrong, being no expert on the subject.)
 
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LAX
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 1:35 pm

Thank You Neil.......

Sounds reasonable.

Did ANY early 741's have anything but P&W engines?
 
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yyz717
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 1:38 pm

All early 747's had PW engines. The first GE 747 flew in 73 and was delivered to KLM.

Neil/Toronto
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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United_fan
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 2:08 pm

I believe that the differnace between a 741 and a 742 is that a -100 has a hump where the upper deck ends and blends into the top. I also think that most late -100's had the 10-window option.
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 6:15 pm

To make matters even more confusing, some -200 aircraft have seven windows on the upper deck (I think LH aircraft have that - I certainly recall at least one BCal aircraft that had this configuration).
 
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 6:28 pm

The ten window option was for all the later -100s. What's worse is that there are -200s with the -300 upper deck! And how can you distinguish a -400D (domestic, used by ANA/JAL) from a -300???
 
9V-SPK
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 6:56 pm

For the B744Ds and B743, i'll distinguish between the engines and wings, especially the engines.
But anyways, only JAL and ANA offers the B744Ds, and there's a difference between their B744Ds and B743!So that won't be a problem!
Best Regards
 
747Specialist
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 9:17 pm

Always a lot of confusion with the 3 windows on the upper deck, this might help:

All 747s from line #1 to #146 were produced with 3 windows (=3 holes) on the upper deck.
All 747s from line #147 ( Delivered : July 30, 1971, VH-EBA for Qantas) were produced with 10 holes in the upper deck. Now, some earlier 747s were later reconfigured with more windows (Sabena, United, British Airways,...) while some latter examples were delivered with 3 windows and the remaining holes plugged with metal (TWA, Panam,...), this for better fleet comonalty between older and newer 747s.

If you have questions on a specific 747, just ask me and I will give you the 'windows status'.

Regards
747Specialist
 
David_itl
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 9:18 pm



Neil

What about the BA 747s? G-AWNA (23rd built)delivered April 1970 - presumably this had RR engines..?

David/MAN
 
777236ER
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 9:58 pm

BA's 741s had PW engines and initially had 3 windows.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
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United_fan
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 10:34 pm

The differance between a 743 and a 744D is the lack of static dischargers on the end of the wings.
747-300:

Click for large version
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Photo © Frank Zahorik



744Domestic:

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Photo © Edward Lai



Now what's the external differance between a -200SUD and a 300?????
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
David_itl
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 11:04 pm


Thanks 777236ER

Very strange how then went for the RR engines on subsequent 747s. Presumably this was nationalistic pride on having British engines for British Airways?!?!

David/MAN
 
Ned Kelly
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 11:08 pm

To confuse matters slightly more, (although this would be a one off I beleive) a 747-100 that was built with 3 windows on top, converted to 10 on top, and then converted back to only 3 on top.
The 1st picture taken back in 1984 & the second was taken in 1999. I even had an e-mail from someone saying that my picture must be fake because of the 10 windows on top. Unfortuately I couldn't find a picture of N7470 pre 1984.

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © John Kelly



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Chris Coduto



Ned.
 
777236ER
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Sun Oct 14, 2001 11:09 pm

Actually, i think the RR engines had better fuel burn stats and a lot greater thrust than the underpowered JT9Ds on the -100. Plus, MX was easier, seen as through they'd only have to send the engine off to Derby.

Regards.

BTW, how's MAN doing? I haven't been there in ages  Smile When are you going to overtake Gatwick?!  Laugh out loud
Your bone's got a little machine
 
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yyz717
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Mon Oct 15, 2001 1:20 am

Here's some more confusion. Sort of.

Boeing offered a re-modelled 747-100B in the early '80's. The only customer was Saudia. They chose the RR engine. These are the only -100s (although not 'real' -100s) with other than PW engines.

Differentiating betw the 743 & 744D is easy.....most obvious diff is the engines. The 744D has 744-style engine nacelles. Differentiating betw the 742SUD & 743 is more difficult....basically can only be done by reg #. Only 2 airlines had their 742s converted to 743 standard.....KLM & UTA.

Neil/Toronto
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:12 am

Actually it's customer's demand.

When Boeing delivers first B747 to JAL, there are only 3 windows on the uppder deck. However, JAL is not happy about it. So they ask Boeing to "open" few more windows on the upper deck for them. JAL also asked Boeing to put "Japan Airlines" title in Japanese Kanji.
 
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United_fan
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RE: Ned Kelly

Mon Oct 15, 2001 4:27 am

I saw the original 747 last Oct at Boeing field. The extra 'windows' were only black stickers applied by Boeing to make it look like a -200 for some reason or other. You can see this when you look at it up close.

Scott
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
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LAX
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Mon Oct 15, 2001 9:50 am

Thanks for all your input here.

Interesting.....

Lots of stuff here to make an avid spotter go nuts!!

How about yet another "oddball" Boeing 747 to further add to the confusion.......

Here's a really unusual one.....a 747-100 w/SUD.........

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Edward Lai



Also ran across this older pic of a cool-looking JAL Cargo 741. Had never seen this livery before. It's listed as a B747-146(SF).........

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Yosuke Kinoshita



Now all we need is for someone to dig up a 747SP with just 3 upper holes!! (Don't think that one exists though......)
However, I did find a 747SP with just 8 upper windows. It appears only Qantas operated the SP with the 8-window upper deck, instead of the usual 10. It looks like the 10 holes are there, but Qantas, for some reason, has plugged up 2 of the window holes.......

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Sunil Gupta


 
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LAX
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Tue Oct 16, 2001 6:06 am

Any more SP airlines with just 8 uppers......?
 
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:07 pm

What is this JAL B747-146B/SUD?? Why was is developed? How many were built, and when?
 
cedarjet
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Tue Oct 16, 2001 8:13 pm

The first airline to request the 10 window Upper Deck was Qantas. Someone at the QF Jetbase in Sydney realised there was a lot of unused space at the back of the Upper Deck and so effectively the first "Stretched Upper Deck" 747 was a Qantas aircraft in the early 70s. Thereafter Boeing rolled 747s off the line with an internally stretched Upper Deck, and this necessitated the 10 windows instead of 3. But Qantas still had a bar up there for a few years yet til loads picked up enough to justify such a big plane.

Love the idea of Boeing putting stickers that look like windows on N7470. Hee hee.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Tue Oct 16, 2001 9:53 pm

the first "Stretched Upper Deck" 747 was a Qantas aircraft in the early 70s

like this?
Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Edward Lai


 
classic707
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RE: Lax

Tue Oct 16, 2001 10:32 pm

Nope, it was streched from the inside, my guess would be there was extra space between the interior an exterior walls that could be used. This 747 window issue is really getting confusing huh?  Nuts
 
cedarjet
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Tue Oct 16, 2001 10:35 pm

Classic707 is right, the first stretch to the Upper Deck merely made more effective use of internal space. Boeing initially was going to use the space merely for radios and systems, then expanded it to a small lounge, then Qantas suggested the internal stretch and the lounges got bigger (and the 3 windows were replaced by 10) then airlines started to put seats in.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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LAX
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Wed Oct 17, 2001 6:22 am

Much obliged.....
 
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LAX
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RE: Boeing 747-100: Some Have 3 Windows; Some Have 10?

Wed Oct 17, 2001 7:30 am

Along these same lines, let's now count all the windows on the upper tier of Airbus' new A380..........

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