eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

FT: Boeing Considering to Cancel 717!

Thu Oct 18, 2001 11:08 pm

from FT.com

Boeing signals further cuts in airliner production
By Mark Odell
Published: October 18 2001 14:25 | Last Updated: October 18 2001 14:47



Boeing, the world's largest commercial jet maker, on Thursday signalled a further reduction in its airliner production next year and said it was considering shutting down one of its product lines.

The announcement came as the group said third quarter net profits rose 7 per cent to $650m from $609m, for the same quarter last year. Revenues in the three months to the end of September climbed to $13.7bn, a rise of 15 per cent.

The Chicago-based aerospace and defence group said it now expected to deliver between 350 and 400 aircraft in 2002, lowering expectations further from a statement made just over a week after the attacks on the US.

In its warning last month Boeing estimated that deliveries for next year could fall to the "low 400s" down from previous forecasts of 510 to 520.

Boeing said on Thursday it was also considering closing down production of its 717 programme, the last remaining McDonnell Douglas aircraft following Boeing's takeover of that company in 1997.

The move will come as little surprise as the company has struggled to find new orders for the 100-seater short-to-medium range jet.

Boeing has, however, again raised its delivery rate for this year to 522 aircraft, after indicating last month it could fall to 500 aircraft, down from previous estimates of 538.

At the time, Boeing also said that the expected collapse in demand for new aircraft could force it to lay off as many as 30,000 workers at its commercial airplanes unit in Seattle by the end of next year.

The first wave of 12,000 workers were told last week they would lose their jobs by mid-December.

Boeing said it had taken a $100m exceptional charge in the third quarter to cover the first round of severance costs.

Further cuts in production rates were widely expected as many analysts believed Boeing's initial response was largely prepared prior to the the suicide hijackings. The company was already expected to cut delivery targets and staff, prior to September 11, as the airline industry had already been moving into recession during the first half of the year.

Boeing warned that "the commercial airplane market is in a period of unusual uncertainty" and said the downward trend would continue into 2003.

Some analysts believe further production cuts will follow and are forecasting that the number of new aircraft built next year could halve from pre-September 11 levels.

The slump in air travel has led airlines to cut routes, ground parts of their fleets and cancel or defer orders for new aircraft. So far some 200,000 jobs have gone in the global civil aviation industry, including those at major suppliers.

 
Teej13
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 5:52 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Thu Oct 18, 2001 11:21 pm

Crummy.. shame to hear.
 
Guest

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 12:08 am

I hope they don't stop production of the 717. They have a plant here in Toronto where they make the wings of that plane, and if they shut down that plant at least 800 people will loose there jobs.
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4442
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 12:11 am

Not surprising.

Well, at least we get to see the hot rods they did build zippin around the skies for years to come. That's a small comfort.

The sadness of 9/11 rolls on.....
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 12:26 am

I liked that 717. It was good. It's a shame really, although I do see where the 717 and 737 do overlap, so it probably shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

Oh well, how our industry is faltering  Sad
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
FlagshipAZ
Posts: 3192
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 12:40 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 12:58 am

No decision has been made yet regarding the termination of the 717 program. Boeing still has 56 outstanding orders for the type yet to be delivered. Remember folks,...it ain't over until the fat lady sings. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
Guest

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:00 am

I here her warming up. If it happens can we say NW and 318. Cool
 
N80NA
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2001 12:20 pm

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:18 am

don't write off the B717 just yet,
this was taken off the Boeing site today :

Boeing Reports Strong Third Quarter Results, $0.88 EPS,
Excluding Non-Recurring Item; Affirms Importance Of
Transformation Strategy

Commercial Airplanes is working closely with customers to complete scheduled deliveries in the near term
and rephase deliveries in the intermediate term, taking into consideration reduced airline capacity
requirements and contractual agreements. Commercial Airplanes continues to evaluate the production and
delivery schedules of its airplane programs, which retain continuing customer support. Consequently,
Commercial Airplanes is well positioned to effectively manage through the downturn. However,
Commercial Airplanes is carefully assessing the impact of market conditions on the 717 program, which
remains the one production line in question. Commercial Airplanes is evaluating a range of alternatives,
including stopping production. While no decision has been made, a decision to stop production on the 717
program would likely result in material non-recurring charges.
 
airbus380
Posts: 1575
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:50 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:22 am

I got to fly on in August on HA OGG-HNL. It was just like a souped up DC-9-50 with a glass cockpit. It was a great flight though and I loved the aircraft.
 
757man
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:59 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:31 am

It's a shame to hear this news, the 717 is a nice little aircraft.

Just remember though, Boeing were thinking about shutting 737 production down in the early 1970s, so you never know what is around the corner.

With the overcapacity the airline industry currently has, I thought the 717 may actually sell a few more units. It could be used on routes where the 737 and A320 are considered too big, then again, we're then heading into the territory of the CRJ and ERJ-145.

We shall have to wait and see what happens to the 717.
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
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RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:55 am

Boeing still has to finish up the Air Tran order and what's left of the TWA order. I think some private aircraft leasing companies placed orders as well. I hope NWA makes a good order for those 717s. It would bring back great memories of the DC-9. The A318 from the outside doesn't impress me. It looks like a fattened 737. The 717 is the last major jetliner to have rear engines and a T tail. The 727 and DC-9 along with the MD-80 and MD-90 are long gone from production but still flying. By them time I get old they'll be sitting in Tuscon or Marana.
"FUIMUS"
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 2:22 am

I think the key here is considering.

"Boeing said on Thursday it was also considering closing down production of its 717 programme, the last remaining McDonnell Douglas aircraft following Boeing's takeover of that company in 1997."
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:18 pm

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 2:30 am

Another misleading thread header. If Boeing say they MIGHT shut down a line, that is not yet the confirmed closure!

So until they announce anything official, I wait and see.

Regards

Ikarus
 
D L X
Posts: 11638
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 2:52 am

B757300, you beat me to it. Why must people use lies and exaggerations as topics for their threads?

In addition to FT using the word "considering" not "canceling," I would add that until Boeing says it, it's just a rumor. (Admittedly, FT gets a little more credance than other sources though.)
 
Guest

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 8:06 am

In either case, go Hawaiian Airlines!!!!
 
Guest

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 8:23 am

AirTran would be VERY pissed off if they shut down production. I bet that no matter what the economics for their routes, they would definitely turn to Airbus if it happened.
 
scannerson
Posts: 99
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 9:54 am

RE: Oscar2

Fri Oct 19, 2001 8:45 am

First Oscar2: Can u say crapy rip off and under powerd? (a318)

Boeing would be smarter than to loose the airtran contract. They would switch them to another aircraft. At least I hope. Also you will see a scaled back proudcution before they close the line.

Rob
 
TWA717_200
Posts: 1410
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RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 8:50 am

 Sad
 
jmacias34
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 10:50 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 9:15 am

Exactly what is AA and every other MD-8X operator planning on replacing them with when they become old? B738-739??? A 717 with about 150-165 seats would work idealy.
 
The747Man
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 7:14 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 9:17 am

Eg777er,

Thanks for a misleading thread, it said Boeing was considering to cancel the 717 program.

When you say "Boeing Cancels 717!!", that's not the case.

Perhaps a little too excited?????????  Big thumbs up
 
Guest

RE: Jmacias34

Fri Oct 19, 2001 11:44 am

Uh, 150-165 seats isn't the 717 market area. That is the prime 737 NG market. The 717 was meant to be smaller than the 737 family, not compete with it. I doubt you'll see Boing cancel the 717, probably cut way back on production until things pick up. The current time there appears to be a drought in the market for 100 seat market because airlines already have planes for those routes, but they will need to be retired sometime in the future and Boeing will need to have a product to replace it.
 
tullamarine
Posts: 1612
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 12:12 pm

The more talk there is about the cancellation of the program, the more likely it is to happen. Airlines and lease companies are very nervous about buying an airframe that is likely to be cancelled due to the huge effect such a decision would have on the residual value of the aircraft.
717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,310,320/1,332/3,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,SF3,AT
 
NDSchu777
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 3:29 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 12:32 pm

that would be really bad for midwest express. this year they just put in a big order for the 717 to replace their aging fleet. is boeing still obligated to fill all the orders for the plane, or could they breach they're order contracts and just cancel? this would be more bad luck for the struggling airline. they were the launch customer for the dornier 328 rj, but they also decided to cancel production of that plane and left midex hanging. another bad thing with the 717 getting canceled would mean midex's service would change pretty drastically. there would be no more aircraft in production with the fuselage width of the dc-9/md-88. this has worked out very nicely for midex to make all-first class aircraft with 4 across seating profitable. if there was no 717, then they'd be forced to use an A320 or 737, and would need a 5 or 6 across seating arangement to be profitable with those aircraft. lets just hope that whatever happens, midex will survive it.
 
highliner2
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:26 pm

RE: NDSchu777

Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:01 pm

Skyway operates the 328JET, not Midex. And the 328JET was not cancelled, the 428JET was, and yes, Skyway was the launch customer for the 428JET before its cancellation.
Go Cubs!
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

Keep The 717

Fri Oct 19, 2001 6:19 pm

They MUST keep the B717, it's a great aircraft: small, silent, clean. And it looks DIFFERENT from the common B737 and A32X designs flying around in masses.
And I don't want to see those pumped up CRJs and ERJs in that category only!

Damn, NWA should order it to replace the DC-9. I don't see an alternative as the A318 is too heavy on short hauls.
It seems the aircraft is underestimated. Nobody wants it, but the carriers that ordered it are all impressed. And the passengers too, in the air and on the ground...

NWA, please act and make it possible for us to enjoy the B717 for a long time!


Keep the 717
Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
transswede
Posts: 969
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 9:30 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 10:31 pm

People, people... A *possible* (and likely) 717 shutdown would not be the end of the world for the 717 customers. OF COURSE Boeing would finish building the 717's on order.
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 10:52 pm

AirTran unfortunately just can't go out and change to back to the 737. The reason we got 717s is because they are in line with our old DC 9 - 30s. Our 9s seat 106 and our 717s seat 117. And crew training costs are minimized greatly, I think it's only a few hours of training in the simulator to transition from DC 9 to the 717. Now we used to have 737 - 200s but we got rid of those in September because of crew training costs and maintenence costs. If Boeing would be willing to pay us for changing over to the 737 - 600, I'm all for it. But AirTran just cannot afford to change equipment...basically if the 717 dies....then AirTran could go with it.

I would love to see the 717 replace the DC 9s that Northwest has, but unfortunately in this time of cost cutting measures, I think the A318 would be better for them. However, there's one airline that I would like to see get the 717 and that is American to replace the Fokkers...To me, it doesn't make sense to have 25 717s in their fleet and that be it especially with the F100s being obsolete now.

Personally, I love the 717s, they have huge engines and they are very powerful and quiet. 1 Huge order would definitely save the production of the 717. They are a great workhorse and I'd like to see them around for a long time.

Ry
 
travatl
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Fri Oct 19, 2001 11:07 pm

Hey Ryan

Just a note...our DC9 guys that go to the 717 actually go through a 4-week course in LGB, then head to the simulators - there is actually more to it than just transitioning over. Yes, overall, the airplane flies like a DC9, but the similarities end there. It's systems are vastly different. The pilots after all learn impeccable typing skills! (j/k).

AirTran will recieve the 52 aircraft it has on firm order. But that could be the end of the 717 line. The airline wants something with more capacity and more range, and that's not going to be the 717. It's a quandry...we need an aircraft like a 757, but we currently only have four gates in ATL that could accomodate an aircraft of that size.

Travis
 
Guest

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 12:10 am

And this is a suprise to everyone? God could have seen this coming. Boeing does not want this airplane. Too bad, its a great aircraft.

Stephen
 
Guest

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 1:01 am

An appropriate heading would have been "Boeing may cancel 717". In the interest of making this forum useful to its participants, may we all please try to be factual and avoid misinformation?

On the basis of the gross deception of the heading for this thread, I am recommending it be deleted.

 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 2:20 am

I stand corrected, thanks Travis..I knew most of the systems were different....especially since it is all but 30 years newer..lol Even the systems from a ramper's view it's vastly different.

I agree we need something bigger and with longer range.....I love the 757 so that would be a wise choice...but who knows.

Ry
 
TWA717_200
Posts: 1410
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RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 3:27 am


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Gregg
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RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 5:45 am

I doubt if Boeing will get rid of the 717. Too many MD_80 operators out there that would want a common type of a/c with fewer seats. Also I think most airlines will get rid of the F-100 fleets soon (like AMR). Since AMR already has the 717, I think a large order will be coming soon. The 737-600 is to heavy for routine short haul fleets. But AMR might still purchase some -600s for longer thinner flights.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 5:48 am

Actually, I think Boeing is not likely going to completely shut down the 717-200 production line. They may not produce new planes for a while, but given that both AC and NW desperately need to retire a lot of old twinjets over the next 5 years, by 2005 Boeing may have to build about 150-200 712's to satisfy orders from NW and AC.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 6:08 am

Forget the stuff about the 717 line closing. The weirdest part of that news item are the words: "Chicago-based..."

Poor Seattle.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 7:13 am

My apologies over the slightly misleading thread title.

However, with the plethora of posts about airline business on the board at the moment, I thought I would try and attract attention to an article that said something that I hadn't heard before.

Bit better than calling it "Another airline business article..".
 
Guest

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 7:45 am

As far as I'm concerned, Boeing is still in Seattle!
 
The747Man
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 7:14 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 7:58 am

Only the HQ is in Chicago. The plant and everything else of Boeing is still in Seattle.
 
FlagshipAZ
Posts: 3192
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 12:40 am

RE: FT: Boeing Cancels 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 8:15 am

The 717 was designed & built in Long Beach. Not Seattle or Chicago. If Boeing does decide to shut down the 717 program, it's because Boeing wants to wipe-out the hertiage of McDonnell Douglas. First it was the MD-80/90 line, then the MD-11s & now the 717 is being eyed. Anyone ever notice that the 717 is outselling the 736? I wouldn't be a bit surpised if Boeing annouced that all of it pending layoffs will be at LGB. Just my opinion. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
D L X
Posts: 11638
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: FT: Boeing Considering To Cancel 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 9:02 am

Before people walk too far down that road, I'd point out to FlagshipAZ that Boeing bought McD more for their defense business than their commercial business. McD was failing on that side fast.
 
Guest

RE: FT: Boeing Considering To Cancel 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 10:23 am

I do not think you will see NW order the 717. I think you will see the with the 318 and more CRJ's.
 
Guest

RE: FT: Boeing Considering To Cancel 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 2:16 pm

Has anyone ever thought that maybe Boeing meant that they might shutdown production of the 747? The 777 is dominating over the 747 in orders. Look at Alitalia, they canceled their order for the 747-400 for the 777-200ER.
 
rooinc
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 9:38 am

RE: FT: Boeing Considering To Cancel 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 3:18 pm

KABC here in LA just reported that Boeing is considering dropping the 717 line altogether, as has been discussed above. It's the news, so who knows, but the idea seems to be out there.

--TJ
 
flybywire777
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2001 11:04 am

RE: FT: Boeing Considering To Cancel 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 9:53 pm

Boeing needs new orders to keep the line open. It needs to deliver a certain number of aircraft per month to pay the overhead and keep the plant open. Otherwise it is a money pit. This is when the bean counters have their say....
Boeing has a new moving production line in Long Beach, a first? for aircraft production, that hopefully will lower assembly costs.
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:18 pm

RE: FT: Boeing Considering To Cancel 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 11:11 pm

Errrr, how did you change the topic name????

Regards

Ikarus
 
QF717
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2001 7:58 pm

RE: FT: Boeing Considering To Cancel 717!

Sat Oct 20, 2001 11:49 pm

Qantas is finding out their 717s are U/S alot -- other airlines notice same problem?

Frankly, that 2+3 seating wins me over the 3+3 of the 737/757/A320 ANY day!

Cheers!

David,
QF717

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