RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 9:29 am

Hi:

Wow Bads new from Delta! The airline is considering to ground 50 or 60 aircraft in the next months. All depends of the demand in the next weeks. The days before and after Thanksgiving Day is consider a very important for take the new resolutions.

Also Delta is in dicussion with Boeing about postponing deliveries, but Delta had no numbers on how many plane might be deferred.

RJ_Delta.
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 9:36 am

I bet this grounding of these 60 planes will be the retirement of Delta's 727s & 737-200s.
 
tbone202
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2001 8:17 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 9:37 am

Does anyone know what aircraft they will be grounding? What will they replace them with?

Tbone202
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 9:40 am

Wow where did that come from?
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 9:43 am

Oldelwood:

Source: Delta Air Lines and justplanes.com

RJ_Delta.
 
f86sabre
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2001 12:44 pm

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 9:56 am

You must figure all the major airlines are cutting back 15%-20%. Delta has about 450 aircraft. 15% reduction equals 68 unneeded aircraft. You must also figure that the older, less fuel efficient aircraft will be the first to go.
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 10:00 am

F86sabre:

Boeing 727-200 and 737-200 will be the first planes to go! Delta possible will retire all 727 fleet inh the next months.

RJ_Delta.
 
United Airline
Posts: 8782
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 10:11 am

Hmm.......... That means they are going to retire their B 727s, as well as B 732s.........

Sad........
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 10:34 am

That is typical of Delta, While jetBlue is thriving, Delta is UNTHRIVING

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 12:04 pm

There goes our 16 year wonder boy Critter592 again i bet his cousin told him to laugh! give that boy a can of coke and 18 planes and and he's as happy as can be! Thank's for the info.R J Delta.
 
jessman
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 1:11 pm

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 12:07 pm

Yes Critter 592;
if JB grounded 50-60 planes how many flights would it still run?
Yes, DL is cutting back, but I would not say it is unthriving.
By the way, I took Delta to Paris and had a nice flight. Non-stop from my home base in CVG. I flew Business Elite. Where was JB? Not where I want to go, nor will they ever be.
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 12:29 pm

Hey Jessman on my last 5 flights on Delta I flew on two 777's one 764 and one 763-300.Two of the flights were free! but i didn't get any coke, i got scotch! maybe when Critter592 grow's up he can fly with the Big Boys!
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 12:31 pm

Probably 722s and 732s. I hope they let go of some MD-88s, I hate them in DL colours.
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 12:39 pm

If Delta retires all of the 737-200s what will they do for a replacement for the Express aircraft? My thought was for Delta to transfer all of the 737-300s over to Express along with some MD-80s & MD-90s.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15697
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 12:45 pm

Can't help but think the 717 is the perfect replacement for the Express 732 and for the low end of the DL mainline fleet.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
atcboy73
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 10:09 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 1:22 pm

DAL grounding so many a/c. This cant be good for the DFW hub. It seems to be getting smaller and smaller. I know that they are putting RJs in there but mainline is shrinking. How much smaller can mainline DAL get there and it still be a viable operation?
 
2cn
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:30 pm

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 1:27 pm

Critter- as others have pointed out, and as I will, the 60 planes Delta is grounding are all part of their scheduled cut backs. Delta is still thriving, probably thriving even better then Jet Blue. Delta still operates thousands of flights- 4,757 flights a day to be exact, with the cuts, more then Jet Blue does, and most likely ever will. It is quite sad to see someone so happy about 'bad' news regarding another airline.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2621
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 2:45 pm

Actually, for the person who said Delta has 450 planes, they actually had 615 before September 11.
 
f86sabre
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2001 12:44 pm

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:27 pm

SESGDL,
I apologize for my error. You are defiantly closer to the correct number of aircraft than I was. 450 was just a number that stuck in my mind.

Using the numbers from Delta's web site,

http://www.delta.com/inside/investors/corp_info/fleet/index.jsp

the number is 600 main line aircraft. This number is not entirely accurate, as it still includes L1011s, DAL has retired some 737-200s in the last few months and DAL has more 737-800s than is listed.

Anyway, the retirement of 50-60 aircraft is unfortunate for any airline. Even though most of these planes would have been gone by 2004. I'm sure DAL will not be the only airline parking excess aircraft. Hopefully then numbers don't get much worse.
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:37 pm

PLEASE PLEASE!!!! do not cut back at JFK NO NO NO!!!! We at JFK have had it up to hear with this crap!!! First AA and UA buys all the ex PA and TW routes and then rapes JFK by moving all of the international routes to MIA, ORD, IAD, LAX and SFO while JFK gets screwed. DL has nowhere near the network that TWA had in the 70s and 80s. All we have is CDG and LHR on AA and UA is LHR. All other are on foreign or codeshares. DL is the only largest left with international ops right out of JFK. Please DL don't move everything to MCO and ATL! The economy around here has had enough! In 5 years maybe less the construction will be completed yet JFK will still be underutilized except for forign airlines not going to EWR.
"FUIMUS"
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 5:53 pm

>>Yes Critter 592;
if JB grounded 50-60 planes how many flights would it still run?
Yes, DL is cutting back, but I would not say it is unthriving.
By the way, I took Delta to Paris and had a nice flight. Non-stop from my home base in CVG. I flew Business Elite. Where was JB? Not where I want to go, nor will they ever be.<<

So you would still be flying CVG-CDG in BizElite if you got laid off? Or is that one of the severance benefits?
 
deltaownsall
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 3:25 pm

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 11:24 pm

Lowfareair- Are you blaming DL for the cutbacks that they were forced to create? The cutbacks go along with the size and economical structure of an airline...just because JB is much much much smaller does not mean that they are a better airline. Where would we be with just airlines like JB? We have to have majors...and DL is probably the airline in the best shape out of the big six right now.
Question- What will DL do with the MD-11s? Do you think that they will be part of this cutback as well? I believe that DL has cancelled JFK-NRT, LAX-NRT (MD-11) and LAX-NGO (MD-11).
DeltaOwnsAll
 
mikeymike
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 6:52 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 11:34 pm

Approximate numbers are

10 MD-88s (1 or 2 will be Ops Spares)
1 MD-90 Ops Spare
1 MD-11 Trans Pac Ops Spare
20 737-200
25 727's
6-8 767ERs go to Domestic Service
2 767-200's
1 767-200 Ops Spare

Thats all I can remember from a teleconference....

Someone else may be a bit more accurate...
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 11:56 pm

jetBlue is much better than Delta. I am not worried about travelling to France, because there is no point. And, how many people get to fly your "Precious" Business Elite? Only the rich people or Delta Snob Employees. Delta's coach service is horrid. Leo Mullin is a good example of a bucktoothed rabbit running an awful airline. If I ever needed to go to CDG, I'd take a European Airline. Some of the major airlines provide crap service. Where are the meals on 30 minute commuters these days? (Europe).
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sat Oct 27, 2001 11:58 pm

And if you ever get to leave CVG, you're lucky. Because people get stuck there all the time. And I got treated like a jailbird there, on Comair especially. I hope some other airline moves into CVG and gives Comair the boot, like MESA tried to do.
 
IAHERJ
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:52 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 1:02 am

Co LITE,

Your knowledge and ideas are right in line with your screen name. We are all airline buffs etc, but you are acting as though this is a sporting match. Take it easy.
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 2:23 am

IAHERJ,
I'll take your word. BTW, how is Continental doing? I might be flying them this summer.
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 2:34 am

DeltaOwnsAll: I was just commenting on how the person that flew CVG-CDG in BizElite, something that you can't do on B6 was only doing it as an employee benefit of Delta Air Lines. If they were not part of Delta anymore, do you think that they would fly the full fare on Dl for that route? I don't think so.
 
DeltaSFO
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 11:22 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 3:25 am



So you would still be flying CVG-CDG in BizElite if you got laid off? Or is that one of the severance
benefits?


Actually, yes, that is one of the severance benefits. Voluntary severance provides for 5 years of space available travel, involuntary furlough provides 1 year.

That is typical of Delta, While jetBlue is thriving, Delta is UNTHRIVING

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA


Yeah, you know, unlike jetBlue, Delta has worldwide exposure, including massive domestic and international operations, and market share. We have more than just one type of aircraft. Unlike jetBlue, average people outside of Jamaica, NY and Fort Lauderdale, FL have actually heard of Delta Air Lines. Mention jetBlue at some kitchen table in Iowa and you get a look of confusion.

Are you sure jetBlue is thriving? Have you seen their balance sheet? How's their stock doing? What is their stock symbol? Oh yeah, they're not even publicly traded. In fact, the only way we know they're doing well is because David Neeleman says so. I'll wait and see if they even make it to their IPO to see if they are indeed thriving.

Delta, on the other hand, while not exactly thriving at the moment, is among the best positioned carriers in the industry, after the September 11 disaster. With United dying a slow and painful death and American floundering at the moment, Delta, who has a cool 2.5 billion in cash in the bank right now, is sitting in the catbird seat.

So grow up, Critter 592.

jetBlue is much better than Delta. I am not worried about travelling to France, because there is no
point. And, how many people get to fly your "Precious" Business Elite? Only the rich people or Delta
Snob Employees. Delta's coach service is horrid. Leo Mullin is a good example of a bucktoothed
rabbit running an awful airline. If I ever needed to go to CDG, I'd take a European Airline. Some of the
major airlines provide crap service. Where are the meals on 30 minute commuters these days?
(Europe).


Co LITE, I'm not surprised that you're not worried about travelling to France. Delta doesn't really target the 13-15 year old white trash segment for their Europe services. Still, even after cutting 44% of our international services at Kennedy, Delta is still the leading U.S. carrier by far in the transatlantic market. Also, Delta's coach product on transatlantic flights is far better than anything jetBlue offers. Yeah, they have these things called meals on Delta international flghts. Strangely enough, they also have meals on the very flights that jetBlue competes with Delta on. Well, tries to compete. Because, after all, while jetBlue flies pax from Kennedy to Oakland and Ontario, Delta and the rest of the big boys don't bother with secondary markets. We fly 'em right into LAX and SFO. So they arrive fed, and closer to where they are actually going.

I don't know why I still even bother replying to this stuff... maybe it's because I just get pissed off that Johan doesn't delete these users while real, meaningful users that contribute are routinely banned from airliners.net. This is what airlniers.net has become. A bunch of stupid kids that don't know what the hell they're talking about.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
N839MH
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 3:54 am

As of Friday October 26, 2001,
Delta had 581 mainline jets.

Boeing 727.......50 in Service
Boeing 737.....135 in Service
Boeing 757.....121 in Service
Boeing 767.....117 in Service
Boeing 777..... 7 in Service
MD88............120 in Service
MD90............ 16 in Service
MD11............ 15 in Service

Since Sept. 11 Delta has retired 18 B727's
and a couple of B737's.
Solodude!
 
A330300
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:06 pm

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 4:09 am

Well said, DeltaSFO. I must say though, that the level of service provided on jetBlue beats out anyone in the short-haul Florida market, but is on par with the majors on other flights when scheduling, destinations, food, mileage and other factors are tabluated. They have certainly increased competition in the markets they serve.
 
papatango
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 1999 10:32 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 4:28 am

i think critter592's parents should put a leash on this boy and get one for co-lite also
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 4:32 am

Thanks DeltaSFO, Well said.

RJ_Delta.
 
Bove
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 10:32 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 5:44 am

Co LITE, I'm not surprised that you're not worried about travelling to France. Delta doesn't really target the 13-15 year old white trash segment for their Europe services

ROTFLMAO Big grin
 
jessman
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 1:11 pm

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 6:24 am

Some things:
1.)I have also flown DL coach to europe and domestically. I have no problems with it. I like the food. I have had delicious, tender steak and juicy chicken. I am not more picky than that. If I had a special diet, I could pack. I do know that JB does not have rice, meat, etc. on their flights. I have also been in AA coach to Maine, no real improvement there in my eyes. I flew NW coach to LAX via MSP and DTW. I didn't find their coach any better.
I've taken AF coach from CDG to CVG. again, there was no real difference. I have always had a pleasant experience on DL. Even when I got stuck on the other side of the US the agents with whom I have come in contact were knowledgeable and helpful.
2.)CVG is tops when it comes to smooth operations for a hub. Very seldom have I ever had a delayed flight.
3.) I could easily afford a tkt on Delta to europe. If I was not paying for my own schooling, and I was a better driver (My car insurance is $5500.00 a year) I could afford a businesselite tkt to europe/asia in addition to a nice vacation. What's even better; after a few trips I could use the mileage I attained to get another free trip, without even having to work here specifically.
 
jessman
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 1:11 pm

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 6:30 am

If I ever needed to go to CDG, I'd take a European Airline. Some of the major airlines provide crap service.


I'm glad to see that you haven't comprimised your hatred of American carriers leaving U.S. borders, CoLite.
Maybe they will all stop doing so. Everyone knows the US doesn't know how to do anything right  Yeah sure

Support the US carriers, everybody. They may not be perfect, but their money goes right back into our economy.  Smile
 
IAHERJ
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:52 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 6:54 am

Well said.
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2631
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes

Sun Oct 28, 2001 7:01 am

If I ever needed to go to CDG, I'd take a European Airline. Some of the major airlines provide crap service.


I beg to differ. "Crap" service provided by the majors does not necessarily equate to good service by the Europeans....

I flew DL 777 ATL - CDG last month, returning on AF 342 CDG-DFW. Both flights were only half full (if that). The AF service was decidedly worse. My empty coffee cup from lunch was never picked up from the tray beside my seat; I ended up stuffing it in the seat pocket when we were on final and the tray tables had to be stowed. That's just an indication of how much attention the F/A's gave us. They sat around most of the flight and talked amongst themselves in the galley.

And I spoke French! Imagine what service others received who only spoke English!

My colleagues who fly AF frequently to Europe (when DL flights are full) have similar experiences. The reason I flew AF is that I have never been on an A340 and wanted to try it.

Cheers,
Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 7:08 am

Concerning inflight service, we all know that so much depends upon the crew of a specific flight; I have had great flights with Sabena and horrible flights with Delta, for example......and then a couple of months later, Delta was fantastic and Sabena was dreadful. This list goes on and on. I agree that the "style" of service on some carriers is different, but the products are very similiar in most respects, especially in the "main" cabin.

Back to main topic here, hasn't DL annoounced that DL Express would be cut back, leading to the grounding of a good portion of the 732 fleet? The balance of the aircraft to be grounded are likely to be 72S, that were headed to retirement, it will only happen faster now.

What is interesting is that some parked aircraft will be designated for possible return to service, if the economy gets better and the 9/11 after-effects lessen, while others will simply never return...any information on this angle?
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 9:13 am

I'll just go with who's cheapest when it comes time to fly. I really can't make up my mind from others opinions. I have heard United is horrible, but I flew them and it was great.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6877
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 9:35 am

Amen, DeltaSFO. I am planning a trip to ORF for next summer, and I will be flying Delta because:

A.) They will still be around (can UA say that...I am not sure).
B.) I will get food on the plane
C.) I will get to fly on different aircraft (that's for an enthusiast).
D.) I will get to where I want to go (ORF).

I could have picked AirTran and saved about $100, but I don't have as much flexibility and would have to go to PHF (add the taxi fare, and there's $100 r/t).

I just find Delta to treat me well, and even if it means spending a little more, I know Delta will take care of me.

Jeff
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 10:04 am

I go along with support your american carriers! I fly Delta and Southwest because they fly only Boeing's!When you fly Mickey Mouse carriers like JB they fly Airbus!That puts american workers out of a job! GO U.S.A.!!
 
2cn
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:30 pm

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 11:30 am

DeltaSFO... Everything that just came out of your mouth is one of the biggest lies I have heard, I fell over in my chair after reading your load of Bullcrap. I've met only bad people from your stupid airline excluding only 3 people. 3 out of 15,000. That is sad. When I was on jetBlue, I got all of the food I wanted, on Delta they said "That's enough, no more for you." So I think you better get your facts straight and go work for cingular. I Think you need to read the post entitled JETBLUE. YOU WILL BE ATTACKED By FORUM MEMBERS SMARTER THAN YOU... BTW -- If Delta Serves Good Food, Just tell me, What kind of crap do they serve for dinner, does it come out of the rear lavatory or directly from YOU?
Critter-
Umm.. Delta employees far more then 15,000.. the latest figure is over 81,000 world wide.. and I've always had nice people with Delta- probably because I was nice to them and with your attitude that comes across on this board, I'm sure you didnt show them any respect. On one of my most recent flights, DFW to NewOrleans, the F/A was busy serving the drinks to everyone before we departed the gate. I asked for mine, and as she was coming around giving everyone their 'orders', she let me know she had to go back and get mine- her tray was full, just so you know- and when she said she would be back, she did an impersonation of Arnold.. it was funny and made my day.. she is one I wont forget. Another was a red eye flight coming back from Atlanta to LAX when I was about 7, and we had a very nice FA as well, she even let me press the call button to see what it was like- hey, I was 7, never had used it before, and I got to do it this time.. its another F/A I wont forget. I can share you tons of great memories of flying on Delta.

Delta does serve good food-for dinner on my last flight, I had filet mignon with vegetables, an appetizer- I believe it was Proscutto ham wrapped around Honeydew mellon, which before you rag on it is an item served at five star restaurants as well-plus an ice cream sundae for desert. Besides the filet mignon, I could have had a chicken pot pie, and I can not remember the other choice. For lunch, I've had a great chicken wrap, best I've had anywhere, and for red eye flights I've received a nice pasta salad- couple times its been a seafood salad, others its been a chicken caesar type pasta salad. For breakfast, the last time it was cold cereal, which on this flight was good as it was just over an hour, a hot cinnamon bun and a number of other items that I can not remember. I've on past flights received eggs, sausage, and hashbrowns.. which was in coach on a long haul flight. Havnt had breakfest on a long haul flight in first so I can not say what exactly it is yet.. usualy fly the red eyes, lunch, and dinner hours.

And, about being told 'no' to any more food- you do know they dont load the plane with tons of food so you can get seconds on the breakfest/lunch/dinner, right? The snacks are also only limited to how much they have on the plane- they first try and serve everyone at least once, then if they have more, you can get more if you ask... this is how I've found it every time I've flown.
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes

Sun Oct 28, 2001 11:36 am

Let's get behind the facts shall we.

DeltaSFO claims that "with United dying a slow and painful death and American floundering at the moment, Delta, who has a cool 2.5 billion in cash in the bank right now, is sitting in the catbird seat."

Wishful thinking. 1.25 billion of that 2.5 million is borrowed money. Delta only had the good fortune of arranging to close a debt offering just prior to Sept. 11. AA had the same good fortune because they had a credit facility of 1 billion in place before Sept. 11.

Besides this illusory advantage in cash, there are other items that should worry Delta. It must manage much higher pilot costs than AA during this downturn. It has been less aggressive in cutting employees costs than AA or CO because it is afraid of giving a boost to union organizers. In fact, it may have initially done the opposite by committing to much more expensive furlough packages than AA or UA in an effort to wage an anti-union PR campaign. From what I hear, however, they have already been backing out of some of these commitments. We'll see next week how much cash Delta's hesitancy and cynicism cost them.

Delta SFO also claims that "Delta doesn't really target the 13-15 year old white trash segment for their Europe services. Still, even after cutting 44% of our international services at Kennedy, Delta is still the leading U.S. carrier by far in the transatlantic market."

Oh, I wouldn't be to sure of that. Delta's yield has over the last two years been lower than American's, United's, US Airways' and Continental's. Could that be because Delta does indeed target the white trash, leisure segment? If Delta did not have a definitive cost advantage during this period, it would have been challenged to make a profit.

It should not come as a coincidence to anyone that of all the majors it was Delta that cozied up to Priceline. On the Delta board over at webflyer, this relationship went a long way toward explaining why Delta has done nothing to respond to AA's MRTC and UA's E+ and why Delta has been more panicked about allowing upgrades on discount fares. Could it be because Delta needs to fill every last seat to make money and sees far more discount fares than AA or UA? Study the yield numbers. They tell quite a story.

On a related note, it was just last week that I was reading an analyst's report that made the claim that because Delta relies on more connection traffic (i.e., leisire traffic) than United or American its revenue and yields would be more adversely affected.

That brings me to the last faulty premise that Delta SFO makes. If Delta continues to be "the leading U.S. carrier by far in the transatlantic market," the reason for this has less to do with the fact that more high yield passengers prefer Delta over UA and AA, and more to do with the fact that unable to operate at Heathrow Delta tries to compensate by flying to more leisure destinations. Given the high profit margins that AA and UA expect from any international destination they serve, AA and UA have been content to operate to Heathrow and one or two additional European destinations. The money is in Heathrow and not in Istanbul. That is why despite serving fewer destinations and operating fewer flights to Europe AA and UA both derive a greater percentage of their revenue from Europe than Delta does.

The events of Sept. 11 have, of course, thrown all of the traditional distinctions between the various carriers into disarray. But, I don't expect much to change when things return to normal. UA will probably be much smaller but it will still have two very profitable franchises, its Heathrow routes and its Asian routes. AA will have the assets to rebuild its route structure, a cache of TWA slots at JFK, LGA, DCA that it still would not have rationalized into its system, its London Heathrow routes and its Latin American routes. By this time, AA may also have locked up Heathrow as a result of an open skies agreement with the British. Call it payback for all of the suport the British have shown the US following the events of Sept. 11. Meanwhile, Delta will be no stronger internationally or domestically. It is true it may end up with a better balance sheet than United, but without United's Asian routes or AA's cache of domestic slots at key airports there is little it will be able to do to provide a case for anyone but the Priceline crowd to fly them.
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 12:26 pm

This post has gotten interesting. 2Cn, how were the fares on your DL flights, just wondering. I find them to be too high most of the time.
 
2cn
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:30 pm

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 12:42 pm

Co Lite- My dad works for Delta, so we non rev. I only remember one fare off hand from my dad checking after we did the trip- LAX-JFK-LAX in BizElite... was either three to four grand round trip, or three to four grand one way.. cant remember it off hand, but I believe it was R/T... which was a year or two ago.
 
DeltaSFO
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 11:22 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 3:31 pm

Ladevale...

Your long post seems to be more fantasy than anything else....

DeltaSFO claims that "with United dying a slow and painful death and American floundering at the moment, Delta, who has a cool 2.5 billion in cash in the bank right now, is sitting in the catbird seat."

Wishful thinking. 1.25 billion of that 2.5 million is borrowed money. Delta only had the good fortune of arranging to close a debt offering just prior to Sept. 11. AA had the same good fortune because they had a credit facility of 1 billion in place before Sept. 11.

Besides this illusory advantage in cash, there are other items that should worry Delta. It must manage much higher pilot costs than AA during this downturn. It has been less aggressive in cutting employees costs than AA or CO because it is afraid of giving a boost to union organizers. In fact, it may have initially done the opposite by committing to much more expensive furlough packages than AA or UA in an effort to wage an anti-union PR campaign. From what I hear, however, they have already been backing out of some of these commitments. We'll see next week how much cash Delta's hesitancy and cynicism cost them.


You are factually incorrect, and your conclusion is even further off the mark. That $1.25 billion EETC was finalized on September 17th, not prior to September 11th. Delta did not close that EETC because of good fortune. Delta closed that EETC because Delta Air Lines, Inc. is considered one of the best credit risks among U.S. air carriers. Also, the cash advantage is not "illusory." More cash is more cash, no matter how you get it. Continental has been living beyond their means for years by way of EETCs.

On the cutback issues, again, you claim that Delta did what Delta did purely out of fear of union organizers. Obviously, AFA and AMFA's recent efforts have put the spotlight on Delta the past few months, and I'm certain that our leadership did what they did in part based on that. But don't forget that Delta's generosity compared to other majors was made possibly by our superior financial position.

Also, going back to the issue of good fortune, are you sure it was Delta that got lucky and not American? Sure, Delta pilots are the highest paid in the industry, but how convenient it is that you left out the fact that American put an offer on the table not too long ago that they claimed was "significantly" more lucrative than what Delta pilots are currently earning. Maybe it was American's luck that APA balked a bit. Otherwise, AA would be hurting even worse than they are.

Delta SFO also claims that "Delta doesn't really target the 13-15 year old white trash segment for their Europe services. Still, even after cutting 44% of our international services at Kennedy, Delta is still the leading U.S. carrier by far in the transatlantic market."

Oh, I wouldn't be to sure of that. Delta's yield has over the last two years been lower than American's, United's, US Airways' and Continental's. Could that be because Delta does indeed target the white trash, leisure segment? If Delta did not have a definitive cost advantage during this period, it would have been challenged to make a profit.

It should not come as a coincidence to anyone that of all the majors it was Delta that cozied up to Priceline. On the Delta board over at webflyer, this relationship went a long way toward explaining why Delta has done nothing to respond to AA's MRTC and UA's E+ and why Delta has been more panicked about allowing upgrades on discount fares. Could it be because Delta needs to fill every last seat to make money and sees far more discount fares than AA or UA? Study the yield numbers. They tell quite a story.


Yes, the yield numbers tell quite a story, namely, that you are dead wrong. Delta falls right in the middle of the pack you named as far as yields go, slightly lower than American, and slightly higher than United and Continental, with everybody significantly lower than US Airways. Suggest you check your sources. Mine are the actual annual reports of the companies you named.

On the MRTC/E+ issue, Delta's system load factor has consistenly been the highest in the industry. Why take seats out when they are in demand? Delta isn't that stupid.

That brings me to the last faulty premise that Delta SFO makes. If Delta continues to be "the leading U.S. carrier by far in the transatlantic market," the reason for this has less to do with the fact that more high yield passengers prefer Delta over UA and AA, and more to do with the fact that unable to operate at Heathrow Delta tries to compensate by flying to more leisure destinations. Given the high profit margins that AA and UA expect from any international destination they serve, AA and UA have been content to operate to Heathrow and one or two additional European destinations. The money is in Heathrow and not in Istanbul.

Uh, negative. Delta serves more European markets than do AA and UA because Delta has hub operations that are perfect for serving Europe's smaller markets profitably. ATL's combination of sheer feed and geographic location make it better than DFW or ORD for transatlantic operations, and JFK's O&D is unmatched by any other market in the world. I suppose AA, now that it has acquired all those TWA rights, could try and set up some stuff at Kennedy, but they'd run up against some stiff competition from Delta. If you want to believe that there is no business traffic to anywhere in Europe except London Heathrow, you're welcome to believe that, just how you believe that Delta's yields are lower than the rest of the Big Six. But it makes you seem pretty uninformed.

That is why despite serving fewer destinations and operating fewer flights to Europe AA and UA both derive a greater percentage of their revenue from Europe than Delta does.

Dead wrong there, buddy. Europe is Delta's cash cow.

The events of Sept. 11 have, of course, thrown all of the traditional distinctions between the various carriers into disarray. But, I don't expect much to change when things return to normal. UA will probably be much smaller but it will still have two very profitable franchises, its Heathrow routes and its Asian routes. AA will have the assets to rebuild its route structure, a cache of TWA slots at JFK, LGA, DCA that it still would not have rationalized into its system, its London Heathrow routes and its Latin American routes. By this time, AA may also have locked up Heathrow as a result of an open skies agreement with the British. Call it payback for all of the suport the British have shown the US following the events of Sept. 11. Meanwhile, Delta will be no stronger internationally or domestically. It is true it may end up with a better balance sheet than United, but without United's Asian routes or AA's cache of domestic slots at key airports there is little it will be able to do to provide a case for anyone but the Priceline crowd to fly them.

Your predictions are quite entertaining. You seem to think this is some little storm cloud that will soon pass. United is fighting for its very existence. American is too. Just ask Don Carty. He said so himself.

You think US-UK Open Skies or AA/BA Antitrust Immunity are going to happen anytime soon? Keep on dreaming, ace. Delta and Continental are banging at the door of Heathrow and the British government isn't about to let them in, even if it means preventing BA/AA, which itself is so anticompetitive that it will never happen.

You're looking for a big AA transatlantic buildup at JFK? Don't bet on it. Delta is well entrenched there as far as international ops go, and Carty knows it. Delta at Kennedy and Continental at Newark are going to be the only game in town as far as transatlantic goes. American will be relegated to O'Hare or Dallas/Fort Worth.

You don't think Delta will be any stronger internationally or domestically? Are you sure? Who do you think will benefit most from United cutting away some of its already measly European routes? Assuming United were to go under, who is it that would have the financial wherewithal to pick up Heathrow or Asia? Assuming US Airways went under, who would it be that moves in on all those juicy Northeast markets? Who will emerge from this tumultuous period sitting atop the industry?

I know you hate Delta, Ladevale. You hate Atlanta, you hate Widgets, you hate everything even remotely associated with Delta Air Lines. But, as much as you may not want to accept it, the answer to those questions I brought up in the last paragraph is easy:


The Big D.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes!

Sun Oct 28, 2001 7:10 pm

>>the F/A was busy serving the drinks to everyone before we departed the gate....Delta does serve good food-for dinner on my last flight, I had filet mignon with vegetables, an appetizer- I believe it was Proscutto ham wrapped around Honeydew mellon, which before you rag on it is an item served at five star restaurants as well-plus an ice cream sundae for desert. Besides the filet mignon, I could have had a chicken pot pie, and I can not remember the other choice. For lunch, I've had a great chicken wrap, best I've had anywhere, and for red eye flights I've received a nice pasta salad- couple times its been a seafood salad, others its been a chicken caesar type pasta salad. For breakfast, the last time it was cold cereal, which on this flight was good as it was just over an hour, a hot cinnamon bun and a number of other items that I can not remember. <<
So you had good FIRST CLASS food and were treated good by the F/As in FIRST CLASS. I've seen people who act arrogant be treated well there. But now how about the food in coach compared to the B6 flights on the same route like NYC-Florida or NYC-UNY? Isn't it just snack mix? And the red-eyes. Those are the same.

The only difference in meals right now are the daylight flights JFK-OAK/LGB. And let's look at fares, shall we? A 21-day Sat. stayover JFK-LA is $352 on Delta, $196 on JetBlue. Most leisure travelers would pick JetBlue.

But what about the last minute fare? To leave Monday and come back Tuesday, it would be $546.50 on JetBlue, $2352.50 on Delta. So while many stuck-up travelers get travel paid by their company, some don't, or they have to stick to a tight budget. So they'd book the B6 ticket, and at the airport they'd get themselves a big salad or somthing, saving about $1800 in the process.

>>Assuming US Airways went under, who would it be that moves in on all those juicy Northeast markets?<<

AirTran. Big thumbs up
 
RJ_Delta
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

El Al Helps Delta To Tel Aviv

Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:07 am

Today Oct. 28 starts a new agreement between Delta Air Lines and El Al to serve Tel Aviv. The Delta customer will be able to purchase seats on El Al's 747,767, and 777s departing from New York Kennedy or Newark. Also Delta passenger can earn Sky Miles in the codeshare flights with El Al to Tel Aviv. This agreement is to replace temporaly the service to Tel Aviv.
So it's probable that Delta would sign another codeshare agreement with Egypt Air for the Cairo routes.

Regards,
RJ_Delta.
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2631
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Delta Is Considering To Ground 50 Or 60 Planes

Mon Oct 29, 2001 3:35 am

I fly Delta and Southwest because they fly only Boeing's!When you fly Mickey Mouse carriers like JB they fly Airbus!That puts american workers out of a job!

While I don't disagree with Oldelwood, I want to remind folks that Airbus buys tons of US made equipment, just as Boeing buys tons of foreign equipment that goes into every aircraft built. The difference is that the engineering design of the airframe and the integration of all components is done in France for Airbus and the US for Boeing, plus the assembly of the aircraft. But even major subassemblies are built in other countries.

The company where I work just landed a significant order for equipment on the A380, which will employ my colleagues and me here in Jackson Mississippi for years to come.

Cheers,
Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos