coyoteguy
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 8:58 pm

Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Thu Nov 01, 2001 11:11 pm

From MSNBC - UAL reports US $1.16 Billion loss. Worst loss in 75 year history.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Thu Nov 01, 2001 11:36 pm

That is way above most people's estimates.How much cash reserve does UA have?
 
transswede
Posts: 969
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 9:30 am

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Thu Nov 01, 2001 11:38 pm

Keep in mind that this huge loss is just for this quarter, image how large it will be for the whole year...
 
Guest

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Thu Nov 01, 2001 11:45 pm

And bear in mind as well that that would include the money they had from the US government!

LOooks like UAL will be in Chapter 11 soon ... and Chapter 7 not long after that!
 
sfointern
Posts: 1104
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:19 am

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Thu Nov 01, 2001 11:47 pm

"United and US Airways Spiraling Downwards Together"

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/623886/6/

I told y'all to expect a UAL loss of $1billion or greater...  Sad
 
sfointern
Posts: 1104
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:19 am

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Thu Nov 01, 2001 11:49 pm

Celidh--

Creighton does not intend to preside over a bankruptcy. Should conditions necessitate one, I doubt that would be followed up with liquidation.
 
Andreas
Posts: 5880
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:56 pm

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Thu Nov 01, 2001 11:49 pm

Please stick to the facts:
The company incurred a third-quarter loss of $542 million, or a loss per basic share of $10.05, both before special charges.

United's third quarter loss per share of $10.05 before special charges is better than the First Call consensus estimate of $10.27, as of October 31, 2001.

The special charges recorded in the third quarter total $617 million, net of tax, and include charges for aircraft impairment, reduction in force and early termination fees offset by the first grant payment from the U.S. government.

That was taken from Uniteds adhoc-news published today.
It means: The result is slightly better than the latest analyst estimates. The sheer amount does not say anything about the cashflow effects. It is said that extraordinary items come from impairment and that is not cash-relevant.
So again, please stick to the truth, the situation is bad enough!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Flying Belgian
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 12:45 am

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Thu Nov 01, 2001 11:52 pm

Here are the latest ...

The company has undertaken the following cost-cutting initiatives since Sept. 11:

United reduced its capacity by 23 percent and converted six stations to United Express.

United on Sept. 19 announced plans to reduce its workforce by approximately 20,000 employees.

The company has retired its entire fleet of Boeing 727s and 737-200s.

United is currently in negotiations with aircraft manufacturers regarding the deferral of future aircraft deliveries.

The carrier has made a number of changes to its onboard products, including in-flight entertainment, meal service and more.

The UAL board of directors has suspended its compensation through the end of the year and has suspended the quarterly common stock dividend.

The company has made every effort to minimize the number of people affected by the furloughs and has put together severance packages and other voluntary options for the various employee groups affected by the workforce reduction.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 12:54 am

The press release says that UA lost $1.16 billion for the third quarter-that's the figure they report to the government. Yet if you DON'T include "special charges"-the accounting stuff, basically, the company loss $542 million for the quarter.
 
coyoteguy
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 8:58 pm

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 1:00 am

Oh good, I'm glad it's "only" $542 million.
 
Guest

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 1:57 am

You may say its $542 million after 1 time charges, but how much did they lose in the end? 1.16 billion.
 
Andreas
Posts: 5880
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:56 pm

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 2:03 am

Let me tell you something, coyoteguy:
The difference is about 50%, not exactly immaterial!
The difference is partially cash-irrelevant, that is a very big deal for ten thousands of UA employees!!!
The overall loss includes payments from US Government, i.e. the loss is already netted, that is really bad!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Andreas
Posts: 5880
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:56 pm

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 2:08 am

Lowfareair:
No, they did not lose 1.16 bn., only as bookkeeping figure. What counts is how much cash you burn; an impairment does not burn any cash, it is a number in the UA financial statement.
I know this is somewhat hard to understand, but it is nonetheless correct. Take it from somebody who deals with these numbers professionally on a daily basis.
btw: You are right! The situation is bad enough!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 2:22 am

OMG. What a total disaster!
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 3:16 am

Some other news (and maybe more important) UA still has around USD 2.1 billion in cash. However each day they loose USD 15 mio of their cash reserves (this includes the aid from the US government) . Thus if the circumstances remain the same they have cash for 140 days (almost 0.5 year). However, highly unlikely that UA will not intervene if conditions remain to be bad.

I still wonder why Goodwin said that UA could be bankrupt by the end of the year (probably to get more aid from the US government).

Regards
Laurens
 
Andreas
Posts: 5880
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:56 pm

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 3:21 am

I believe you are absolutely right. Given the cash number you just posted, it will even last longer, as your calculation assumes no changes in cost structure, and for UA's sake let us hope the new CEO does know a few things to slow cashburning-rate!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 3:24 am

Wow....six more YEARS of losses and they MAY go under...
It's a lot of money...but not to the airline industry...or to United.
It's a healthy wake up call for the new leadership to start making some very dramatic changes.
 
matt777
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2001 8:55 am

Milage On UA?

Fri Nov 02, 2001 3:37 am

Hey everyone,

I got about 50,000miles in my Milage Plus account thats about what I need for an intl. flight, if Ua goes bankrupt where do my miles go? Can I use them in another Star Alliance carrier..?

Anyway, this is going bad... i hope that ua survives...
Best luck to all

Matt.
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 3:42 am

Andreas you're quite right that profit doesn't count. Profit is a measurement which you can influence very easy with accounting tricks (and doesn't say anything).

Moreover, do you it's true that First Call estimated a loss even before the attacks on September 11th. I can recall something like they were going too loose $1.34 cents a share or something like that.

BTW for those thinking this loss is very high wait untill you'll see the statement of Q4. The First Call consensus estimate for Q4 seems to be a loss of $13.45 a share if my recollection is correct. We'll probably get the same reaction on this forum from some forum members who probably can't read (or don't read) the exact statement the airline issues and only read the headlines from the newsreports (who usually don't give the real picture).

Regards
Laurens
 
coyoteguy
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 8:58 pm

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 4:09 am

Thanks Lj for pointing this out to those of us who are unable to read. I believe the point is that it is a hell of a lot of money to lose, and surely if it continues over too many quarters, UA will be gone.
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 4:28 am

I just read that UAL has even more cash than I already mentioned. UAL has USD 2.7 billion in cash including a USD 391 million grant from the US government. Thus UAL will be flying for at least 180 days. I think we must praise UAL that they held their debt sale in August (which generated USD 1.5 billion in cash) and not after September 11th.

Coyoteguy, I hope I haven't offended you or anyone else with my remark about "those who can't read" or "those who don't read". I regret saying that. I only wanted to make clear that usually the headlines don't tell the exact story of the numbers.

Regards
Laurens
 
Guest

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 8:32 am

Keep in mind that AA & UA's losses are extrordinarily large this quarter because they each lost 2 aircraft apiece. All the costs associated with the loss of two aircraft, and tending to families of the victims puts an added burden on those to carriers that shouldn't appear in 4Q.
 
Guest

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 8:52 am

Relax...they still have 2 billion plus left.
 
N178UA
Posts: 1685
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RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 9:04 am

Hi Coyoteguy,

What I say is the same as Andreas and Alpha1 said before

They DID NOT loss over $1 billion in just a single 3rd Quarter. They lost 542million in 3rd Quarter, a slighly more than AA lost 525 million, and less than what US Airways lost.

The result of UAL 9 months to September, however is close to the figures you quoted, so please post precisely and think carefully.


Sam Chui
For more of myself and my flight reviews visit http://www.SamChui.com
 
coyoteguy
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 8:58 pm

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 10:39 am

Thanks N178UA for pointing that out... but please re-check my original post. I didn't say that they had lost $1.16 Billion in any particular time frame - I merely posted a headline from MSNBC for everyone's information and further investigation if desired. Please read posts thoroughly before responding, think carefully and post precisely.
 
che
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2000 10:02 am

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 11:04 am

Man thats harsh. I bet UA wished they did things a little better in the summer befor last. Though no one expected anything like this(sept 11) to happen

che
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6007
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 11:06 am

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
 
DouglasDC8
Posts: 264
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:57 am

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 11:27 am

In addition to the $2.7 billion cash on hand UA also owns $4 billion worth of aircraft that can be sold and leased back as a cash generating measure. I recall this being done in the early 1990's by just about all airlines, including UA.
 
dragogoalie
Posts: 1172
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 3:58 pm

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 11:30 am

Umm...ouch..

--dragogoalie-#88--
Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
 
transswede
Posts: 969
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 9:30 am

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 12:07 pm

In addition to the $2.7 billion cash on hand UA also owns $4 billion worth of aircraft that can be sold and leased back as a cash generating measure. I recall this being done in the early 1990's by just about all airlines, including UA.

True, but if they've already done it once, they can't do it again...  Smile Of course, they might have bought most of their new aircraft since then.

Does anyone have any idea of what the ratio is for leased/owned aircraft for United?
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 1:44 pm

Doesn't surprises me at all. Goodwin and Dutta we're no better than Lorenzo/Borman. The airline dropped the ball on 9-11 with their piss poor security at BOS and EWR. Security is on the bottom of the list for airlines. I just got back from JFK and security hasn't improved at all sicne 9-11. At the AA terminal the security screeners didn't follow FAA procedure so as a result the hundreds of people and thousands of luggage that passes through we're screened incorectly! As a result they pax we're recalled and we're screened all over again! You've got pilots, FAs and pax afraid for their lives here and this is the crap that goes on!

UAL's ass was saved byt the US Gov paying off the families compensation if the promised not to sue the airlines because AA and UA would'n'r have a chance in hell. Not only would they be sued byt the next of kin on the plane but families of the dead and the injured would be next in line. This is what the airlines give pax back after the US Gov wastes my tax money on these corporations!?! Unbeleivable! UAL would be in Cahpt 7 right now if our government didn't bail them out. It's because of UA and AA's pisspoor security that this happened and on the way back I visited Ground 0. You tell those families, NYPD, FDNY and EMS that the airlines weren't at fault and you'll get your ass chewed out b the lot of them. Don't tell me that airlines couldn't for see a hijacking! They should've learned from the PSA shooting in California in the early 80s, the DL 727 hijacking by 2 Cubans and the DB cooper fiasco!! It is an outrage that the airlines that we trust do not give 2 shits of pax/crew safety!

Had the airmarshal program was still in effect and had the airlines woke up and made the doors stronger with kevlar on the walls and doors we would'nt be in the state of war! I wouldn't have gone to 18 funerals in one week! and there wouldn't be a black mark on the city called ground 0. I blame the airlines and if non of you like it tough! It looks like UAL will soon go the way of PA. I won't be surprised if history repeats itself yet again and UAL sells it's routes to the competitior.
"FUIMUS"
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Breaking News - UAL Big Loss

Fri Nov 02, 2001 6:56 pm

VirginA340.

All the kevlar in the world on the door won't make a difference if the pilot OPENS IT!!!

You obviously haven't worked security, worked for an airline or had to deal with FAA regs. If you want to know how I can tell, it is because you keep quote the Captive News Networks and their piss poor journalism.

But in reality this is a subject for a different topic.

And try to keep in mind one other fact that keeps being missed.

Those hijackers did not break a single law prior to their respective flights. They did not bring on board a single item that was not allowed on the airlines.

That has never been in dispute.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

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