Stratofish
Topic Author
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

Let´s Get Rid Of Layola De Palacio!

Fri Nov 09, 2001 6:17 am

I was inspired to do this by an article in 'The Wall Street Journal Europe' of Thursday Nov. 8th. It was in the opinion section. I´ll try to get a link posted if requested.

The original topic was the SABENA demise and then this part got me going through the roof while reading it at university today. Here´s the part:

"And while the Belgian government, the company´s management and it´s unions (I disagree here) all played a part in bringing about Sabenas´s demise, there is one player whose role should not be forgotten.

In the wake of the September 11 attacks, the subsequent downturn in air travel and the U.S. government´s $15 billion airline-industry bailout, the European Commission came under considerable pressure to lend a hand to Europe´s own airline industry, or at least to allow member states to save their flag carriers. For the most part, however, it held the line on its rules against state aid, and it deserves praise."
from: wsjeurope 11/8/2001


NO WAY!
It deserves praise?
Why on earth does it deserve praise for willingly putting thousands of people out of work? I am for fair competition, but this is sick. The EU was created to bring somethting good to the people, by now I doubt that.

Why are people so narrow minded when it comes to state aid?
Now, no government should totally own an airline company but it should not be limited to a certain figure. If every gov. can do it it´s fair again. Especially if the money is intended to help saving/creating jobs. I even DEMAND state aid in that case, and if the EU and little Layola want to prevent that, then we must get rid of them (yes, I know i go too far and the EU process is irreversible) and I want my taxes back, because that´s the way I want to see my money used by the state! To help create/save jobs.

The article closes saying:
"Only by keeping its cool as other airlines are forced into restructuring -or worse- can Europe hope to move toward an economically rational airline industry."
I could not disagree more!

As you may have noticed I´m somewhat emotional on this but let me tell you I also reviewed all this with the rational portion of my mind and come to the same conclusions. And after all, that´s to a great bit what I study (geography/economics).  Wink/being sarcastic

Looking forward to read your thoughts / comments on this.

Stratofish
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
SunCEO
Posts: 356
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Let´s Get Rid Of Layola De Palacio!

Fri Nov 09, 2001 6:29 am

Loyola de Palacio is right. No state aid for airlines.
 
Stratofish
Topic Author
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Let´s Get Rid Of Layola De Palacio!

Fri Nov 09, 2001 6:49 am

Ok, any good reasons?
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Krushny
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Let´s Get Rid Of Layola De Palacio!

Fri Nov 09, 2001 7:38 am

First, spell right the name of this Lady, it is (Ignacia de) Loyola De Palacio, not Layola.
Second, do you think you are going to save Sabena by firing her? The EU has taken the road to improve the competitiveness of European business, and you cannot expect it to subsidise forever the weak parts of our industry. It is sad when many jobs are lost, but have in mind that many industries have been restructured before, why should we take an exception with airlines?
Sabena is only the first of flag airlines to disappear in the EU, it was just the one in the weakest position and thus the first to fall.
 
Stratofish
Topic Author
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Let´s Get Rid Of Layola De Palacio!

Fri Nov 09, 2001 8:51 am

You´re right, its Loyola. My fault (but not earthmoving, eh?).  Big grin

SABENA is history. It can´t be saved, it´s gone. But it could have been saved if the government had been given the chance.
Actually I don´t relate this to only SN, but to the entire (not only airline-) industry. You need money for restructuring and if only the state can provide it then what´s the big deal? Better help bail out an industry or a company than having to deal with uncountable numbers of unemployed. Recently RESTRUCTURING actually meant DOWNSIZING. So in the end we get what some call 'a healthy economy' but also a sick society. An easy choice for me...

rgds
Stratofish
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Andreas
Posts: 5880
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:56 pm

Stratofish! (Nice Nick, Btw)

Sat Nov 10, 2001 11:15 pm

just let me tell a few things, before this thread is closed:
You are emotional on this, ok, that's good, but
you are completely wrong. The reasons:
1. Loyola de Palacio is dead right: European aviation sucks economy-wise. It is mostly nationalistic vanity, and this "let it cost as much as it takes" attitude is just as shortsighted as it gets.
2. Your unemployment point: Dead wrong again!! If your government spends thousands of Euro just to keep it in business, there is no money elsewhere!! Do you want to explain to a non-aviation worker why he shall get no help, because the government spent all money on aviation?? You don't really mean that!!
3. Your restructuring point: Basically correct, but look at historic evidence: Cash was burned to get through crisis and then nothing changes at all.
Sorry if I sound somewhat harsh, but I am fed up with this "oh my dear government help me, i cannot cope with crisis (because I do not want to)" attitude.
Regards anyway.
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
teva
Posts: 1764
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 12:31 am

RE: Let´s Get Rid Of Layola De Palacio!

Sun Nov 11, 2001 2:09 am

Andreas, you didn't read previousmessage completely:
Stratofish is talking about industry in general (not only airlines).
In this case we are just talking about the right for each country too choose the type of society they want.

Now, as liberalism seems to be the only system for the entire world, let's use it's vocabulary.

What is a government owned company? It is just a normal company, with its own government as major shareholder.
When a company needs money, they ask their shareholders. If shareholder can and wants it, they put the money. It is their choice.
Let's take SN(but it is the same for any firm; not only airlines). SR had 49%, Belgium 51%. Then only SR is authorized to put money. Not the major shareholder. Strange vision, isn't it?
And it is probably cheaper for the government to help its company, rather than deal with 12000 unemployed people (plus the jobs lost in shops, restaurants, garages, etc, as thy will loose most of those 12000 customers)

Another thing is strange to me and I saw it in different messages in this forum: private companies are well managed, and government ones aredisasters. Then let's have a look at some examples:
- Electricity companies in California;(all the power outages a few month ago)
- Brittish Railways companies; (Blair had to re-nationalize one)

Now let's have a look at a well managed airline (today).
In the early 90s, due to management mistakes, AF was in the same financial trouble as SN or SR. The bad CEO has been fired, as it would be in any corporation. Then, at this time, BRU authorized the main shareholder (French government) to rescue AF.
As a result, thousands of jobs have been saved, and today, everyone cosiders AF as an example !!!

Nana...
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
airsicknessbag
Posts: 4626
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Let´s Get Rid Of Layola De Palacio!

Sun Nov 11, 2001 5:52 am


First of all, "Ignacia de Loyola del Palacio y del Valle Lersundi" - which part is first names, and which are familiy names? I always understood de Loyola, del Palaciao, del Valle and Lersundi to be family names - I might be wrong though...

Secondly, I believe most state aid would only prolong the agony of an already dead firm. Those who claim to be so badly hit by September 11 mostly have found a reason to hide their real problems which already existed on September 10.

Daniel Smile
 
airDD
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 3:06 am

RE: Let´s Get Rid Of Layola De Palacio!

Sun Nov 11, 2001 6:15 am

Bailing out in-efficient state owned flag carriers is unfair.
Sabena's eternal government saving brought down Citybird, Air Belgium, Brussels International Airlines & almost Virgin,...

 
Stratofish
Topic Author
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Let´s Get Rid Of Layola De Palacio!

Sun Nov 11, 2001 9:42 pm

-Andreas:
Teva pretty much got my point. It´s about the entire industry and I think I can explain that to a non airline employee fairly well. Government bailout should be mandatory for those companies which have a big workforce. Teva also mentioned the reasons. So you would choose a healthy economy over a healthy society, well, I wouldn´t.
I am fed up with this "oh my dear government help me, i cannot cope with crisis (because I do not want to)" attitude. At least I´m not the onlyone who gets emotional.  Big grin

-Airsicknessbag:
I agree about the point the economy was having it´s problems prior to Sep.11 and some might use this situation to get away better. But again if it concerns more than, let´s say, 10,000 jobs, it is the right thing to do.

-AirDD:
I think it is fair. Because those airlines combined didn´t have as much employees as SN.


Btw: I think I chose a wrong heading, there would be more ppl in this thread if I had named it 'Thought´s on gov bailouts' or something...


rgds to you all
Stratofish
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Guest

RE: Let´s Get Rid Of Layola De Palacio!

Sun Nov 11, 2001 11:52 pm

What absolute twaddle! This is a perfect example of the Belgian cloud-cuckooland virtual reality that Sabena employees lived it - "if someone says something we don't like: get rid of them!"

Wake up and smell the coffee, people! This is the 21st Century, not the 16th - and you get what you work for. If you don't work - you don't get. Simple as that.

With the upcoming harmonisation in the EU, there are going to be many, many changes in Belgium and other countries where to date people have sat on their asses because they think the world owes them a living.

Reality call, people - it doesn't!

Stratofish and his friends are a perfect example of this. They feel that Sabena should have been allowed to continue in operation simply because it provides employment. Well, if it's employment you want, then go off to one of the community service organisations. Given the condition of the streets etc in Belgium, they could do with the extra people.

But of course that's not what he means. What he really means is that they want highly paid jobs with minimal amounts of work (the pilots were complaining they were overworked flying 40 hours a month!) - and of course the Belgian social security system pays people a sizeable proportion of their final salaries for sitting on their asses doing nothing. In addition, through their threats and riots, the weak government has caved in and has agreed to pay substantial redundancy payments to staff. More money for doing nothing - compliments of the Belgian taxpayer.

And what does the long-suffering Belgian taxpayer get for his or her billions of francs? Well, people that riot and try to burn down the Prime Minister's residence. People that blockade the airport. People that stop the taxpayers going about their lawful business and preventing them from travelling. And of course now with government financing thinly disguised to make it appear as if its coming from the regions and private investors Sabena II - The Disaster Continues.

Quite rightly, Loyola de Palacio is going to block this. For reasons best known to itself, the Belgian government seems to think that it can ride roughshod over all the rules and regulations that the rest of the EU - such as Ireland - has to abide by.

Stratofish - if you and your buddies want a communist society where the state provides you with jobs and keeps dead dog companies afloat because it's in the national interest, why don't you move to North Korea?
 
teva
Posts: 1764
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 12:31 am

RE: Let´s Get Rid Of Layola De Palacio!

Mon Nov 12, 2001 1:04 am

Ceilidh,
If you count me in Strtofish friends, then, thank you very much.
If you read my post carefully, I do not refer to communism.
Most of my ideas are "Colbertism", in reference to the LOUIS XIV minister.
He designed the France we know.
The main concept is that the government is here to organize the society, and the economy is a tool.
Today, people from the Tatcher's era wants us to believe that the economy is not a tool, but it rules the world. In this case, why do we need governments, if they have no power. And where is democraty?
Nana...
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
Stratofish
Topic Author
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Let´s Get Rid Of Layola De Palacio!

Mon Nov 12, 2001 3:12 am

Now things are getting interesting.

First of all: I am not Belgian. And the SN disaster is only an example of what I mean and what was mentioned in the text I quoted. Although it shouldn´t make any difference if I was.

Ceilidh:
"With the upcoming harmonisation in the EU, there are going to be many, many
changes in Belgium and other countries where to date people have sat on their asses because they think the world owes them a living."

Now that will offend millions of people everywhere who work hard every day. AND: Most of htose changes will be for the worse for most people.

"Well, if it's employment you want, then go off to one of the community service
organisations."

Left aside that this and your next sentence is simply insulting, would you please explain that to me? Community services as job factories??? Now who´s out of this world?
Btw, I challenge you to show me where I said that I want "highly paid jobs with minimal amounts of work".

Of course we all know the regulations of the EU (at least some of them, al this absurd stuff fills half of my book boards) but to a great amount these are b/s because of the reasons I gave earlier. Therefore not only Belgium should bend those rules.
The economy is there to serve the people not to rule their lives.

Btw, you are the first one ever to call me a communist. But if that is what you think...
I would call myself a social liberal of the Keynesian School. To tell me I should go no North Korea, however, comes close to a personal insult! There (North Korea) are hardly ANY companies, there are millions of people starving because of their insane leader(s) and many human rights violated every day.

It should be a human right to be employed! I know according to the neo-classical theory there is no such thing as unvoluntarily unemployment, but that has been proven wrong.

Companies should not be kept alive because of national interest but of interest to let people stay in jobs. That is something different than communism.

Stratofish
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Guest

RE: Let´s Get Rid Of Layola De Palacio!

Mon Nov 12, 2001 3:33 am

Then, Stratofish why don't you (and others) start your own company to employ people instead of expecting it as a "human right"? You claim that you're a Keynesian, but it's only Marxism that says that there should be employment for all!

If a company is unprofitable, it should go out of business. Full stop. That's market economics for you - corporate Darwinism if you like.
 
Stratofish
Topic Author
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Let´s Get Rid Of Layola De Palacio!

Mon Nov 12, 2001 5:03 am

Ceilidh:
Corporate Darwinism works as long as the surviving fitest can provide enough job´s for all. Most times if a company goes out of business there is no new comparable company which takes its place. And I think you will agree that mono-/oligopolies are not good for the economy.

If you read all my posts you will find that quote is the only time I quoted Marx.

If everyone run his/her own company it would not work either. Btw, I already did start a company (with others, back when I was 19) and only backed out later due to lack of time.  Big thumbs up

Stratofish
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: A330freak, Baidu [Spider], bjorn14, cohrn, cornishsimon, dubaiamman243, EIASO, FriscoHeavy, GCT64, Gemuser, Google Adsense [Bot], hi_flyer, icareflies, jm079, KarelXWB, Majestic-12 [Bot], mjoelnir, mozart, pspfan, ricport, SCQ83, starbucks, steman, SXI899, viasa, wedgetail737, whywhyzee, xiaotung and 367 guests