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Close Similarities With AA DC-10 Crash!

Tue Nov 13, 2001 4:10 am


Once again we have another terrible crash, also AA is involved, it's an incredible time for American I presume. I've been screening carefully the latest news and more and more I feel that I've seen this "movie" years ago, in 1979 AA lost a DC-10-10 just after take-off from Chicago, also the engine Nº 3 left the plane and the same plane plumged down killing all on board, now we have something similar, also it's quite interesting to know that yesterday the plane came out from the maintenance, anything wrong happened today that might been caused by the stop of the plane? Could be! Also about communications, if we look to what occured in 1979 the only thing it could ear in the CVR was the word " Damn " said by the pilot, I don't think we will ear much more than that in this one!
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
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RE: Close Similarities With AA DC-10 Crash!

Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:34 am

Well, that might be one aspect of the similarity. Another one which struck my mind was the following: Both planes with one engine on each of its wing turned uncontrollably to either left or right after losing an engine (if it turns also out to be losing an engine here...). No chance to recover the plane by the flight crew.
How would a four engined aircraft 'react' on losing one engine? Would it be easier in keeping the aircraft on track - as there still is some power on the wing produced by the still working engine?

Can someone answer this question?

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RE: Close Similarities With AA DC-10 Crash!

Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:40 am

I doubt the crew of a four-engined aircraft would have far more chances to recover. Just remember the El Al 747 which crashed in Amsterdam some years ago. They also suffered an engine separation on takeoff, tried to return to the airport and lost control during the final approach(apparently due to damages caused by the initial separation of the engine)
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RE: Close Similarities With AA DC-10 Crash!

Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:43 am

It is possible to return after physically losing an engine on takeoff. It happened in ANC in 1993... Click Here
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RE: Close Similarities With AA DC-10 Crash!

Tue Nov 13, 2001 9:30 am

GE CF6 engines have a habit of shedding blades. GE acknowledges that there may be a problem but that is as far as it goes. I often wonder if GE is just so big that the FAA are hampered in their ability to lay any major AD's on them. There have been more than a few uncontained failures of the CF6 and no real 100% action by the FAA.
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RE: Close Similarities With AA DC-10 Crash!

Tue Nov 13, 2001 9:52 am

Yes, I remember 05/25/79 very well. Terrible tragedy in Chicago, with 273 dead.

The parallels between today's A300 crash and AA 191 are certainly there, including nearly the same number of fatalities [looks like 255 today, plus ? on the ground].

Both planes were from American Airlines and each lost an engine shortly after takeoff.

Geez ..... I hope this 11/12/01 disaster is the last one for a LONG time to come!!


Chilling pic of AA 191 Heavy going down ........


RE: Close Similarities With AA DC-10 Crash!

Tue Nov 13, 2001 10:01 am

"It is possible to return after losing an engine on take-off"
- your exemple is a 4-engined plane losing one engine; the AA Airbus had only two engines, so that it is completely different. El-Al Cargo 747 in Amsterdam lost both engines on the same wing, plus parts of that wing (as a result of the loss of the nb 3 engine), which made the plane virtually uncontrollable, as stated in the final report.

And BTW, it is still impossible to know what happened in NY. Many bystanders say they saw an explosion, and according to msnbc, parts of the plane were recovered at 4 different places; a "more" terrible problem seems to have occured on that plane than the loss of one of the engine.

RE: Close Similarities With AA DC-10 Crash!

Tue Nov 13, 2001 10:38 am

Who knows what really went down in Queens this morning. But, i myself, couldn't help but remember AA191, also. I don't even want to being to specualte what happened with AA587, but i will tell you this. From what I understand, AA191 had a chance to pull it off if they would have just continued at whatever speed they were at (around 180-200), instead of slow to V2. They thought the engine quit, not that the engine fell off. So they brought the speed back to engine-out speed, which is based on one engine still running, and of course none of that asymmetrical slat retraction that went on. They brought it to a speed which was too slow for stable flight on a damaged and clean wing. When that stalled, combined with the differential thrust on the other side, caused the roll. If they would have maintained their speed, or allowed to -10 to accelerate, that wing, although still pretty useless, might not have stalled. After all, "Vyse" (although it's not called that) for the DC-10 is around 240-250 kts. But you can't blame the crew. They thought the engine flamed-out or whatever, so they did what they had been trained to do. Which was to slow to 165kts or so, or whatever V2 was calculated for that flight.
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RE: Close Similarities With AA DC-10 Crash!

Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:53 am

on Cnn this morning a pilot pointed out some interesting facts....The main hydraulics come from the engine...plane loses engine physically...Hydraulic lines have a pretty good chance of being damaged...Well...that leaves the other way to fly , differential thrust..oh wait...we only have one the pilots may have been up the creek without a paddle. An expert was quick to point out that the 1979 incident occured because of quite a bit of damage to one of the wings when the engine seperated. The wing was so badly damaged and misconfigured that one wing stalled out while the other one did not. This is what contributed mostly to the big roll that can be seen in the above photograph...
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RE: Close Similarities With AA DC-10 Crash!

Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:56 am

Any twin-engined aircraft should be able climb then return to land safely with only one engine.

AA191 did not crash because of engine separation itself. The debris struck a hydraulic line and cause the left wing slat to retract causing the stall speed of that wing to increase. The pilots followed AA emergency procedure and reduced the air speed to just below the stalling speed (159 kt). The wing then cause asymmetric stall and cause crash. The stick shaker system and slat indicator were also out of service because of the debris.

Had the pilots knew about the slat retraction, they will fly at higher speed and probably able return safely. Without such system, they had no chance to know what was going on and how to recover.
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RE: Close Similarities With AA DC-10 Crash!

Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:04 pm

Spk brings up a good point. The slat indication system gave false readings, so the pilot , according to the information he had available, was doing everything right when he attempted to recover. He did the best he could with what he had available to him.
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RE: Close Similarities With AA DC-10 Crash!

Tue Nov 13, 2001 2:29 pm

The direct cause of AA 191 crash in 1979 was the slat retraction on the left wing. After the engine seperated from the wing it did sever hydaulic lines however it also severed electrical cables to the captains side instrument panel. As a result the stick shaker was inoperative and the pilots had no idea that the left wing was even stalled so they pulled back hard on the yokes and applied max right rudder and max right aileron. This made the wing drop even further until the a/c was virtually inverted and descending vertically. Had the pilots known they were in a stall they could have simply applied forward elevator and unstalled the wing!
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RE: Close Similarities With AA DC-10 Crash!

Tue Nov 13, 2001 2:39 pm

When AA191 became airborne it was under control, being handled by the F/O. In accordance with American Airlines engine out operating procedures the F/O noted that the airspeed was approximately V2+10 and started to reduce the airspeed to V2. Ironically that 10kts was the difference between flying and stalled for the damaged wing. The rest is history.
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RE: Close Similarities With AA DC-10 Crash!

Wed Nov 14, 2001 3:32 am

Yesterday's accident also sounds eerily similar to this one that happened in 1962. Both planes were American Airlines. Both left from the same airport. Both crashed in/near Jamaica Bay shortly after takeoff killing everyone aboard.

Interestingly enough, after this accident, AA did not retire the flight number. Flight 1 still operates the same route today.