airmale
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Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:09 pm

I think not why didnt they even bother to try out the 747-400, 777-200/300, A330/340 before ordering the A380, publicity stunt again, like Emirates? would have respected them more had they been real and taken on the 747-400 Smile

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jwenting
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:15 pm

They themselves obviously think differently...
It is not like Lufthansa or Air France where support of the national industry dictates what they purchase...
I wish I were flying
 
cfalk
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:18 pm

They obviously read only the first part of the advice on "How to make a small fortune with the A380".

The second part reads, "First, start with a large fortune..."

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Charles
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hkg_clk
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:19 pm

They probably don't need it, but then Qatar is a rich country, right?

As for Emirates' order, I don't think it is a publicity stunt. I think they reallly can fill those planes! Emirates is an airline with lots of potential!
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OO-AOG
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:39 pm

It is not like Lufthansa or Air France where support of the national industry dictates what they purchase...

That's probably why they've ordered bunchs of 777s and 747s !? Big grin Big grin
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
Marco
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:41 pm

Emirates IS buying the A380's as a publicity stunt. That is why the Sheikh of Dubai, Sheikh Maktoum, formed the airline back in '85. His efforts have been very successful and Dubai is very well known today, especially with tourists. Of course, only people who live in the area or who have contacts with people in Emirates would know this.
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Guest

RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:50 pm

Now let's be fair. Qatar Airways are adding many new destinations out of Qatar to Asia. On December 17th they will start flying to Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, Maldives. They said they will also add new destinations as the A330-200s arrive. The growth of Doha as a transit airport has been excellent and QR have a good reputation of flying people from LHR,CDG,MUC to SE Asia on very low prices.
That is why they are building a dedicated transit terminal in the new Doha Airport.
So i believe that by 2007 with the rebound of the industry, the promotion from the 2006 Asian Games, QR can fill an A380 to Doha and have them transfer onto other aircraft to thier final destination. Just as EK is doing. I know many people working QR and i even know shareholders there and they all say they can profit from the A380.
QR is viewed as a Government owned airline infact the Qatar government only has stock in one aircraft out of the 16 they operate (excl. VIP aircraft). The Qatar government will own a significant share after 2002
 
chepos
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 12:01 am

They will be pretty useful for the transportation of pilgrims to the Haddj and for those busy intergulf routes.
Chepos
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Guest

RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 12:02 am

About the 747-400 (They have operated the 747 classics before the Airline was sold and relaunched on 1997). Qatar Airways don't need the 747-400 right now. The A380-800 will be delivered 2007 by the time QR is ready for it. Emirates ordered 22+10 Qatar Airways 2+2. Now i would like to know which is the publicity stunt and which is the genuine order.
 
ek-a380
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 12:16 am

I dont think Emirates are buying the A380's for the publicity stunt. They can and will fill them. Their UK flights are extremely busy especially Manchester and so they will have no problems filling up such a large aircraft. I have flown with them several times and am due to fly again next month. They have an excellent brand identity and use it well in the media and press - so much so that passengers like myself demand to Fly Emirates as 1st choice
 
Marco
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 12:29 am

IMO emirates is overrated, but anyways let's not get into that.

Many people who worked for EK, or have contacts inside will tell you that alot of the things EK does are for publicity. One of the most respected users, B747-437B, even knew about this and he was close to Emirates!
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Udo
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 12:44 am

If things are for publicity only, then it seems that tactics also works to secure profits. Both EK and QR are profitable, so where's the point?

EK is the only non-Asian airline to operate the B773, why? Because they need it! They fly it to LHR and it's full. They have three LHR, one LGW, one MAN and one BHX flight daily, so do you think all these routes are flown just for public stunt?
They announced MAN will go twice daily and other destinations as well.
Can you imagine how traffic growth will affect LHR and MAN flights in 2006? Shall they fly eight B773s to LHR? Ever heard about slots? If not, check soon, at least before your next post!

If Emirates was just founded by a bored sheikh to impress the publicity, well done I can say, that was a good idea!


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Marco
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 12:56 am

Udo and just how would you know how profitable Emirates is? After all, they are not a PLC so they do not release their results every quarter (hmm and doesn't one of the most rich people in world support airline???). As for their LHR flights being full, The current load factor for EK is around 69% for their whole network, that's hardly amazing. And believe me, not all of their European flights are as full as you think! Also, yields matter and if people are buying tickets for only 1,000$ to get to australia from europe I can't see Emirates making that much money. Udo, unfortunately there are alot of things I can't tell you, but of course even then you wouldn't believe me, knowing how skeptical most you people are.

Regards  Smile
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Guest

RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 1:04 am

QR has the same load factor. QR will go public next year.
 
David_itl
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 1:10 am


As for their LHR flights being full, The current load factor for EK is around 69% for their whole network, that's hardly amazing

Pardon? Udo cites a specific route and you throw back the network figures! Haven't you got access to the LHR figures then? You have got to do a fair comparison!

The average EK load for MAN last year was 231.5 passengers per flight. What that equates to in load factor terms, I do not know. That is unless I find out which aircraft flew on each day so I would then have the total capacity available.

However, what about the cargo capabilities of the routes involved? Do you know that EK's single daily flight to MAN carries almost as much cargo as the entire network of flights operated by BA from MAN? That is where extra "profits" are being generated from the UK routes.

Even if they can't fill the aircraft with passengers, I'm sure they'd more than welcome the extra cargo carrying capability of the A380.

David/MAN: 254 and counting
 
Marco
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 1:31 am

David, I was talking about the emirates network because I was looking at it from a more logical point of view. Emirates is not going to buy the A380 for DXB-LHR and DXB-MAN flights only. That doesn't make sense. You have your opinion and I have mine, and mine is that EK doesn't need the A380. They should undergo expansion, no doubt about it, but doubling the fleet to 10,000,000 aircraft in a matter of 8 years is seriously overdoing it. What next? will they launch concorde flights to Mars?
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David_itl
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 1:52 am


If LHR is slot-restrained (and I believe this is the reason why the BHX flights started) then the only logical thing for them to do is use larger aircraft! If no new runway is built at LHR despite having Terminal 5, even BA will recognise that they need bigger aircraft and so go back to the late 1990s plan for using the 757 as the smallest aircraft they have based there.

The only time we'll probably see A380s on our tarmac is if they happen to get diverted here!

David/MAN
 
Marco
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 1:57 am

For the time being I think three daily flights into LHR are enough for Emirates. They are, however, looking to upgrade their LGW flights to double daily flights.
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gf-a330
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 2:03 am

Thats like asking yourself does Gulf Air need the A380
 
GOT
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 2:35 am

I think that both Emirates and Qatar is doing this as a publicity stunt, but that's not the whole picture. The A380 is not something that you buy for fun, if you order one, you will have to fill it, unless you can pay to hold it in the air, and in the long run no one can.

GOT
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airmale
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 4:30 am

Udo-Emirates is an ASIAN airline from the Middle East region of the Asian continent Smile
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Alessandro
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 5:03 am

So how many are combo A380ies, both cargo and passenger planes? All talk about passenger, but what about cargo?
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PolAir
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 5:34 am

Aint nobody, even sheikh of emirates, order 22+10 A380's for a public stunt or just for fun! These people are not stupid. If they place such an order than they must be pretty confident this will bring them profits.
As far as I know EK is one of the best menaged airlines in the world, and their loads to UK are very high. Of course 22 A380's are "a bit" too much for UK only. I think expectations about new US routes are very high, so i belive we will see some A380's there. Other than that maybe:
FRA, ZHR, CLK, SYD, MEL, SIN, CDG ?
 
Adria
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 6:00 am

Let's face it the A380 is an aircraft which gives an airline the image to be the best.The 747s are old concept.They are beautiful aircraft and I like them a lot but Qatar need something bigger and this is what they want.Emirates hase the 777-300 which I think is a very big aircraft so they must have reasons to buy the A380.So does Qatar have reasons otherwise they would risk so much.
 
gf-a330
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 6:10 am

Not really.

Just a publicity stunt.
 
donder10
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 7:05 am

Bove=definitely Ceilidh.
 
watewate
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 10:40 am

Before this thread turns into a flame war, can anyone name enough high-capacity routes to warrant 22+10 A380s? Sure, UK MAN, LHR and Kangaroo runs probably need A380s capacity if all claims are true, but what about other routes?
 
Marco
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 12:20 pm

CLK? Don't think so, EK introduced a three times a week nonstop service to CLK, in addition to their one-stop flights, the load factor was 40% on an A330! Other than BOM, JED and LHR cannot see where EK could fly the A380. ZRH? You must be kidding, they recently downgraded this flight to 6X weekly instead of daily, also my brother was on this flight a week ago, the load factor was 40%.
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David_itl
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 6:53 pm


Have some people forgotten when the A380 in due in service?

So what if a service has dropped down to 40% loads.....it's the loads circa 2005/6 which will be all important!

David/MAN
 
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hias
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Routes For EK A380s

Wed Nov 14, 2001 7:16 pm

The flights to Germany are also very successful. How about routes to the US ? I would see enough routes for the A380s... and the demand for Hajj aircraft is also there...

Regards

Mathias
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JAL
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 11:14 pm

I think that they should have ordered the 777 or A330/340 instead of the A380.
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Marco
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 11:14 pm

David, what do you mean so what if the loads have dropped to 40%? If they don't have high load factors then how do you expect them to fly a freakin' A380 to the place?

Polair, there are other things associated with purchasing the A380. Like I said before, EK has purchased the planes, for publicity and no it's not a waste of money. The Sheikh of Dubai owns the airline as well as most major beach properties, stores, malls, etc (Burj al Arab, Jumeirah Beach Hotel, Emirates Towers), also lots of other nationals own buildings, hotels, etc ... and so in the end the whole national population benefits. For him it's an investment with big returns! If tourism increases, all the money goes into his pockets! Also, the economy becomes better as a result the rent that major corporations (Microsoft, Oracle, CNN, Reuters) pay in the Dubai Media city goes into his pockets. So even though he's spending a lot of money on the airplanes, it is a wise investment, even though the largest aircraft that EK will probably need is the A345.
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David_itl
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 11:47 pm

I wonder, Marco, if you happened to have noticed some tragic events that occurred recently. Seems to have affected the number of passengers travelling at the moment. In the short-term, yes, things will be bad but long-term? Different matter. People will fly again - it may be next year, it may be in 3 years time but people will fly again. Remember the Gulf War sent passengers numbers tumbling but they recovered relatively quickly. MAN has forecast a 10% fall in passenger numbers (to around 16.5 million) next year but is still sticking to having around 40 million passengers by 2015.

You STILL don't appreciate the fact that it is currently operating to some slot restricted airports in Europe. Watch will happen when the UK and US sign an open-skies agreement - it's going to be difficult for any new entrant to gain sufficient slots to compete effectively against the incumbent airlines at LHR and so there'll be more complaints made!

If no more slots are available and passenger demand rises....they HAVE to increase capacity of the aircraft on routes. To begin with, they'll have an excess of capacity but I'm sure they'd rather have room for growth on the route rather than order an aircraft that carries marginally more people than the ones that they currently have.

Not all the A380s will be passenger aircraft - I'm sure that some of them will replace the wet-lease arrangement they have with Atlas Air on their freight network, and, additionally, allow them to enhance this side of the business.

David/MAN
 
emirates777
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Thu Nov 15, 2001 12:27 am

I have noticed some posts regarding Emirates and wanted add my 2p worth.

First of all, Emirates is scheduled to return its schedule to normal operations (pre-Sep 11) from Nov 16. As a result the 3x weekly non-stop A330 to HKG returns. However in order to address the lower load factor issue, the timing of the flight has been changed. The flight now departs at 0300 meaning better connex from the Western Europe, Gulf and Middle Eastern flights. It will cause a bit more duplication as a 773 goes to BKK then HKG only 15 minutes later.

New services to be added include 3x JNB weekly, 3x THR weekly.

Marco, i think Emirates needs something bigger than an A345. The current configurations of 777s they operate already seat a lot more than their A345s will.

IMO the A380 order for 22 acft plus 10 options is ambitious. For it to work I think Emirates would need to allocate the 380 on all of the routes below. Anyhow, i have provided a rough estimation on where Emirates A380 routes are likely to be placed:

Obvious candidates: LHR, JED, KHI, BKK/HKG, SIN, MEL, SYD.

Potential candidates if routes continue strong growth: JNB, RUH, ISB, FRA, KUL, CGK, MAN

Obvious candidates but contingent on granting of extra seat allocations: BOM, DEL

Emirates proposed routes if they are successful: JFK, LAX, ORD

and finally on a lighter note:
Emirates going OTT: MCT, SAH, BAH, DOH, KWI, AUH, and PEW (if they can even get one down there).

Rgds
Emirates777
 
PolAir
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Thu Nov 15, 2001 12:52 am

U forgot about IAD, i am sure A380 will go there one day...
 
Marco
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Thu Nov 15, 2001 5:40 am

I think Emirates should expand slowly, and it's very simple, they are buying all these aircraft to further their image. It's certainly working.
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Udo
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Airmale And Marco

Fri Nov 16, 2001 6:48 pm

Airmale, you don't have to teach me geographics as that's exactly what I do every day at university. Should I have said SOUTH EAST and NORTH EAST Asia to point out that there's a difference from the Middle East?

Marco, it seems EK should soon offer you a manager position. Otherwise, EK will be kicked out of business due to the heavy weight of the 22 A380s...


2 0 0 6 is the year when the A380 enters service and not 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 or 2005. AND EK won't take delivery of 22 planes on the same day in 2006...


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Marco
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 7:09 pm

Udo,

It seems that you have run out of things to say so you're resorting to personal attacks. I could sink to your level, however I won't. Grow up, just because we have different opinions that doesn't mean you have to start acting childish.
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Udo
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 7:18 pm

I think there's a difference between being childish and using some irony...if you feel attacked by that, well, I'm wondering how you react to other kinds of criticism... Wink/being sarcastic

By the way, I still have to say something: EK just announced profits for the past half year period. Check it at News on Airliners.net...


Regards
Udo


Warning for all users: Do not use ANY kind of irony in relation to Marco! He takes it personally and seriously... Wow!
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Marco
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 7:41 pm

Udo,


Actually I don't take criticism personally, however I do take condescending sarcasm personally, which is something you're good at. After all the topic was about the A380 and look where you've taken it now.  Big grin
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solnabo
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 8:45 pm

Maybe they need the 380´s when it´s hajj.........
U know, the pilgrims to Mecca, stuff it full with muslims.
Just a guess.
Michael
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
eg777er
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 9:08 pm

1. EK doesn't pay for fuel at DXB.

2. Load factor is irrelevant. Yield is the key, and I suspect that EK's may be very low due to the number of economy pax they carry Europe-Sub.Con and Europe-Asia.
 
Joni
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 10:42 pm


Load factor isn't "irrelevant". Besides, since one clear trend in comercial aviation is that business class loads are decreasing monotonically, loads (and yields) in Economy class are going to play a more significant role. Since the A380 is supposed to offer significantly lower costs, it's going to play a very significant role in the future, be it with Economy or some kind of Economy+ products. (The A380 allows for good Eco and Eco+ products at a very competitive price, if we believe what Airbus, its customers and engine manufacturers are saying about the costs)

Of course there likely won't be very many A380's without business classes... but the fact is that only rarely do airlines manage to sell list-price business class tickets.
 
David_itl
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:35 pm


This is what my EK source mailed me this morning:

"We could do with the A380 now on the lunchtime LHR, never mind in 2006! Although the BHX has developed it's own catchment area it is also taking some of the regular LHR traffic from the northern 'home counties'. The first 3 A380 services with be the lunchtime LHR, FRA, and either SYD or MEL.

We are looking again at a 4th LHR service (possibly late morning ex LHR) now that fewer services are operating (post 11th September). The problem is that airlines like BA are still very reluctant to give up their "grandfather" slot rights. In any case, the early evening EK003/004 will become a B777-300 (LD) from end of March next year. We couldn't do that previously because the DXB temperatures for the late afternoon departures (45/50C) meant the -300 couldn't operate non-stop with a full load. The aircraft arriving in the spring will have slightly better payload/range performance.

Network wide, passengers were 15% (average) down on budget for October although still slightly up on October, 2000. November has shown stronger growth over the last few weeks while December is now looking very good indeed. In our net fares contract with the UK Consolidators, we insisted this year that all December bookings had to be ticketed by 31st October. The outstanding bookings were cancelled during the 1st week of November which freed up a few thousand seats in the peak-off-peak (15DEC/10JAN). Most of these have now been resold and when I left the office last Friday (I've been on leave this week), the earliest date available in Economy on flights back into the UK (LHR/LGW/MAN) was between the 10th & 13th January. Even BHX is full up to the 5th."

David/MAN: 251 and counting
 
Marco
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RE: Do Qatar Airways Need The A380?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 4:39 am

I don't mean to change the topic but I was talking to a flight attendant (EK) and she told me that on her flight from MEL-SIN a week ago there were only 50 pax on a 773 and that the day before the flight had been operated by an A330. Loads to MEL seem to be deteriorating, anyone have more info?
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