717fan
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Will The 717 Survive?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 3:45 pm

What do you think will Boeing let the 717 live or not?
There are a plenty of petential customers. What about Aerocalifornia, Aerorepublica, Finnair, AUA, Braathens etc?
 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 3:48 pm

I think Boeing should kill the 737-600 and continue producing the 717 to compete with the A318.
 
elal106
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RE: Tedski

Fri Nov 16, 2001 3:55 pm

yea! right on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

go 717!!! great plane!!!!!
 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 8:47 pm

*CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* YEAH!!!!!!!!!!! Now We're Talking.!!! GO 717
 
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solnabo
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 8:50 pm

Just UGLY!!!!!!!!!
60´s model, t-shaped tail and noisy, NOOOWAY!
GO A318-19.........
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
Qantas737
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 8:58 pm

Solnabo, noisy??????? Prove to me that this aircraft is noisy thanks. An as for looks, thats not what airlines choice their aircraft upon. As for the 717, I will get to experience one for the first time next week. Will be interesting to see how it has improved over the MD-80 series.  Big grin

I would like to see it survive with a stretch and a squeeze later on.
 
RJNUT
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 9:05 pm

Solnabo

Rear mounted engines are ALWAYS quieter than wingmounted engines.. ALWAYS!!!
 
cfalk
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 10:15 pm

Rjnut,

Maybe on the inside, but...

I think the 717 is a fine aircraft, very good for what it was designed for (short frequent hops) and very efficient. The airframe has paid its dues, and is probably one of the best around.

But I think the 717 does not fit very well with the Boeing catalog, nor is it a good fit with airlines who have varying size needs.

Look at SAS for example. They have, in addition to their older DC-9/MD-80 fleet (which will be going soon), 737-600, -700 and -800 models. So from essentially a single parts bin, and common mechanical and flight training, cover all their capacity needs between 100 and 180 seats. If they had the 717 instead of the 737-600, they would need to dramatically increase their costs in order to accomodate it.

The same arguement goes with Southwest, American, and all other airlines that have short-medium range needs of varying capacities. They need to either choose the Airbus 318-321 family, or the Boeing 737 family.

Also, the 717 suffers a little bit from what I have called the "SX syndrome". Does anyone remember the Intel 486SX processor? The SX processor was a 486 processor with a few capabilities literally switched off, and sold cheaper. The chip had all the capabilities of the 486, but had been intentionally handicapped to put in a different segment. The 717 is similar to this. the 717, while structually based on the MD-80, and with far more efficient engines, has a range of only 1300 miles(1800 on some versions), far less than the MD-80, which could fly up to 2600 miles. Boeing must have intentionally "hobbled" the 717 in order not to compete with the 737. This is also why the 717 is stuck in 100-seat category, although the plane can clearly be adapted up to 170 seats, as was shown with the MD-80.

While I understand Boeing's desire to streamline their catalog, I do find it a pity that the 717 will never be allowed to develop to its full potential.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
JAL
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:25 pm

The 717 is a great aircraft all it needs is more support from Boeing!!!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 12:12 am

The 717 is outselling the 736 two to one...84 712 in service compare to 42 736. There are still more orders to be filled for the 717 while the 736 orders are coming to a standstill. I say, let Boeing cancel the 736, 753 & 764 and throw its support behind the 717. You can sell alot more smaller aircrafts than you can larger ones.  Wink/being sarcastic
Just my two cents here. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
Jaws707
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 12:25 am

I am also a fan of the 717 and I would love to see Boeing keep them in production, except from a business point of view it would not make much sense. I believe that the 736 is built in the same factory as the other 737's so for Boeing to offer this plane is no big deal as there is only a little modification done to the factory to build it. The 717 though has its own factory and that is a lot more expensive for Boeing. But I guess that we all should be finding out within a few weeks Boeings plans.
 
AA737-823
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 3:43 am

Please oh please, WHY will Boeing not stretch the 717 and come up with a 717-323 and tell AA it's a re-engined MD-80??? AA could scrap those plans for the 400- strong 737 fleet and go with somethign more efficient and familiar. MD-82 and 737-823 have nothing in common, MD-82 and 717-323 would have much more commonality to offer....

And, the 717-223 would be a GREAT replacement for old, noisy, and expensive to maintain Fokker 100s.

Randy
 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 3:53 am

AA is gonna retire the F100s regardless if they would order 717s or not. I think that the 717 will sell eventually, a slow seller like the 757 was when it first came out.

Stephen
 
woodsboy
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 4:06 am

The mysterious Midwest Express order than has not been confirmed could save the 717 for a while at least. But as the days go by and we still see no press release or orders added to the 717 books, it looks like Midwest Express must be being forced to swallow some other Boeing or Arbus product. Boeing might have already decided to stop the 717, thusly encouraging Midwest Express to not order it.

Boeing did this to Lufthansa Cargo and Fed Ex with the MD-11. They wanted more, Boeing said NO! They delivered the original Lufthansa order and the last 2 for Eva Air and told FedEx to eat rox! So, then FedEx decided to go for the A300 until second hand MD-11s could be had.

Boeing could certainly make the 717 attractive by offering even ONE more stretched variant and increasing the range of the 717-200. But they havent uttered one word about that, so I expect that they arent planning on it.

As for the 717 being noisy....its the quietest commercial airliner in the skies (both in the cabin and outside), according the MDC (pre-merger) and Boeing. Incidently, the MD90 was the formerly quietest airliner and even the MD-80 is quieter than ANY of the 737NGs (cabin noise) unless you are in row 28-33.
 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 4:12 am

Maybe Boeing should just cancel the entire 737 line?

Maybe offer
the 757-300 230 pax
757-200 180 pax (My favorite with the 319)
757-100 150 pax
717-300 126 pax
717-200 110 pax

I personally dont like the 737 series but it is a great airplane from operational standpoint and is the worlds number one selling airliner.

I like the 757 series and the 320/319/318 series myself. I am not a huge 321 fan either.
 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 4:22 am

OK, listen up people....

1.Boeing HAS NOT decided to cancel the 717 yet, so stop fusing about it!!
2. Medwest Express WILL be taking delivery of the 717s that they have ordered.

3.STOP SPECULATING. I have friends who are not only the 717 line manager but also managers of the 717 program. UNTIL there is an official press release from Boeing announcing their decision(which should be later on this year/beginning of 2002), NOTHING IS WRITTEN IN STONE!

GOT IT??
 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 6:48 am

GO LGB Photos. That is what I wanted to hear. At least LGB_Photos knows how to support a worthy airplane.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 6:58 am

I support the 717 also. I've much rather see more 717s flying around than any other Boeing! Long Beach workers, IMHO, are the best in the business. The DC-8s that are still in commercial service, is proof of this.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Anyone want to see a good plane even better? Let LGB build it.  Wink/being sarcastic Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 7:40 am

No...
 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 7:41 am

No what Boeing757fan?
 
woodsboy
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LGB Photos

Sat Nov 17, 2001 8:43 am

LGB Photos
PLEASE- where is there confirmation that Midwest Express actually placed the order for 717s? Boeing doesnt show anything, no orders, no press release- nothing about it. Have they in fact truly placed the firm order for ACTUAL delivery?

Boeing says only 6 orders in all of 2001 for the 717, so where are these Midwest Express 717s? I have been waiting to see the confirmation of this as I LOVE the 717, but it doesnt seem to have happend yet. If you know otherwise, let us know!
 
Guest

LGB_Photos: Confirm This Please

Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:34 am

LGB_Photos, I am sure that you have the exact same 717 Press kit as I do so I am going to Narrow this down, and you can confirm the information I am writing.


The 717 Front Cabin and Mid Cabin Noise Levels are below 82 decibels.

Airbus A318 costs 11.7% more to operate than the 717.

All 717 Emissions are Below that of the ICAO 2004 limits

So you see guys, The 717 is clearly a Successor of the DC9. Boeing just needs to give it a chance. Kind of like an old flame waiting to be re-lit, one of these days, the flame will ignite again, and orders will be ROLLING in.
 
TWA717_200
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:58 am

It will survive. Even if I have to sink millions of my own $'s to assure it....

 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 10:50 am

It would be great if Boeing produced a FBW 717 with a longer fuselage like the DC-9 series 40 & 50, then you might see DC-9 operators like NW go for it!
 
IFlyADesk
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 10:53 am

Before I type the 'bad news' I just want you all to know that I have flown on the 717, like it, and it IS making money for TWA and AirTran. However, the question isn't WILL they cancel the program, it is WHEN will they announce it?

The key is timing. With a long lead time from first part(s) to first flight, the suppliers need to be issued plenty of advanced notice to stop 'making parts'.

Expect MWE to get their airplanes, but most likely not the ones that were originally ordered. AA will not dedicate themselves to maintaining and flying a fleet of 30 aircraft. Guess where THOSE airplanes will go? My money is on MWE (after mods) and perhaps some to AirTran. Yes, the 717 would be a perfect replacement for AA's F100s, but who wants them? AA cant sell them and Boeing doesn't want to be stuck with 74 of them in trade.

In order to compress the production line of the 717s, marketing the AA aircraft to another carrier(s) will accelerate the shut-down of the line by several years. Somebody earlier equated this to the M11 line, and that is so true. The strongest signal Boeing sent was even the 'hint' that the 717 would be discontinued. That waves a red flag to any airline that was even considering the 717. Would you buy a new car knowing that next year they would be discontinued because they are 'not making us enough money' and 'nobody else is interested'?

Regarding derivatives, a 717-100 could be a possibility for airlines that would like to have a 'family' of aircraft, ala 737 and Airbus. However, a 717-300 would NEVER be considered because it would cut into potential sales of the 736, which hasn't been selling well either as earlier stated.

Look at recent history, Boeing's goal is to have ALL commercial aircraft be built in Seattle. Mark my word, five-years (or less) from now the only aircraft being built in LGB will be the C-17, if even that.

To the 'nay-sayers' that conclude this is all crap, read the above again, and read every word. As much as I personally would like to see DOUGLAS at LGB survive, unfortunately, it wont...
 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 10:53 am

I Bet if Boeing Worked with Northwest, then NWA would order some Boeing 717-351s.
 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 11:02 am

Who knows, to keep the production lines in Long Beach going maybe airlines like Olympic Airways might want to place some orders for more 717s if they really love them to replace their aging fleet of 737-200s!
 
Guest

RE: LGB_Photos

Sat Nov 17, 2001 11:52 am

No what Boeing757fan?

Look at the title of the thread, you will see where my NO came from.

YA DIG?
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 1:00 pm

I think the future of the 717-200 is contingent on two airlines: Air Canada (AC) and Northwest (NW).

Both airlines have big fleets of shorter range jets that are in desperate need of replacement by 2004-2005. If Boeing can hang on that long on the 717-200 production line we may be talking 150-175 airframes sold between AC and NW to replace their older jets.

That is if Fairchild-Dornier's 928JET doesn't get the orders first.
 
Guest

RE: Raychuang

Sat Nov 17, 2001 1:33 pm

Hello, NW is going with Airbus, not the 717!
Its been discussed many times prior to this.


 
Guest

RE: Raychuang

Sat Nov 17, 2001 1:42 pm

Now why would Air Canada go for the 717 when they already have a fleet of airbus? Same with Northwest, they are gonna replace the DC-9 with the A319 from what I have been told. Aeromexico, Aerocalifornia, Cebu Pacific, Olympic Airlines, and Aloha would work for the 717. Mexicana could also replace some of the 727s with 717s, but that I doubt. Just have to wait and see.
 
AA737-823
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 1:47 pm

Unfortunately, I agree. Why would Northwest go for the 717 when they already have all those airbii? (Just a joke- Airbus X 2 = Airbii).

Sure, it is common with the DC-9... But the DC-9 is the aircraft on the way out...

R
 
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yyz717
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RE: Raychuang

Sat Nov 17, 2001 1:47 pm

Actually RayCheung has a point. NW has to replace over 150+ DC-9's. If they get a good unit price from Boeing, they could go for the 717.

As for AC, they will need something to replace the DC-9 and 732. Thye have a big gap betw the A319 and the CRJ. The 717 could fill that gap.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Metwrench
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 1:52 pm

Sorry guys,

But as a frequent flyer on a carrier that has a large fleet of MD-80's, I hate riding in the noisy, stinky, dark tubes!

Quite often I am required to purchase tickets on short notice. That means I get the crappyiest seats left over. If it's on an MD-80, that means I get to sit adjacent to the engines, the lavatories, the galley, (with the bitchy FA's), and all the other pax sticking their asses in my face while they wait in line for the lavatory!!!!

Did I mention that it is dark, stinky, and noisy in the back of these A/C?????

DC-9's, MD-80's, and 717's suck!!!!!! Boeing put their fuselage-mounted engines behind the pax cabin on the 727's. It was loud, but not obnoxious.
 
Guest

RE:Yyz717

Sat Nov 17, 2001 2:11 pm

Ummno, he doesnt have a POINT! NW will not be getting the 717's! They are replacing the 9's (in the future) with Airbus's!

 
planeguy
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sun Nov 18, 2001 12:55 pm

THE MIDWEST ORDER HASN'T BEEN ANNOUNCED BECAUSE BOEING AND MIDWEST ARE STILL HAMMERING OUT THE FINE POINTS OF THE CONTRACT THAT WILL BE SIGNED SOON.

NO ONE HAS MENTIONED NEW MEXICAN START-UP VUELAMEX EITHER, THE AIRLINE LOVES THE 717 HAS FOUR READY TO GO AT LGB AND PLAN TO ORDER TWO MORE AIRCRAFT NEXT YEAR. THIS MAY PROMT AEROMEXICO AND AEROCALIFORNIA TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT THE 717 ONCE IT IS IN SERVICE SO CLOSE TO HOME. THE SOUTH AMERICAN MARKET MAY BE EFFECTED AS WELL, AEROPOSTAL MAY MAKE A PLAY FOR THE 717.

THE 717 (IT'S STILL AN MD-95 TO ME) HAS PROVEN ITSELF WORTHY SINCE ENTERING SERVICE. FLIGHT CREWS AND PASSENGERS ALIKE ALL SPEAK HIGHLY OF THIS WONDERFUL AIRPLANE, LET'S HOPE THE ALL SEEING, ALL KNOWING BOEING CO. LISTENS, DOUGLAS ALWAYS DID BUILD A SUPERIOR AIRCRAFT THOUGH.

LGBGUY
 
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yyz717
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RE: RE:Yyz717

Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:08 pm

The NW DC-9 fleet is not being retired as the new A320/A319 deliveries occur. Hence, the DC-9 replacement program has not begun.....The 717 is definitely in the running Boeing 757fan.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:13 pm

The 717 would keep the tradition of Northwest twinjets, I hope to see it as a replacement. I have heard the A320/A319 fleet is for 727 replacement, as well as other reasons.
 
TommyBoy
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:38 pm

I don't think the 717 will survive because I don't think Boeing was ever serious about the 717. They kept the line going just to appease the city of Long Beach when they took over McDonell-Douglas. The 717 is an orphan...more airlines would be interested in it if it were part of a family and I don't believe Boeing has ever been too interested in stretching it or shrinking it because now they have an excuse to close down the program.
 
IAHERJ
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:40 pm

I think the 717 might just have a chance. Very recently, Mesa was rumored to have leased/purchased up to 10 737's. Continental Express is probably going to be spun off next year. The IPO was scrapped but Gordon Bethune yesterday in our weekly voicemail informed the company that the IPO was still in the works and hopefully next year a portion of Continental Express will be spun off. The long term intent is to totally spin off the company allowing COEX which will be called ExpressJet INC. to have the freedom to fly out of the Continental hub system and operate larger aircraft. The president of Express has hinted that the larger aircraft doesn't necessarily have to be an Embraer product and that he thought Boeing might have something to offer. If ExpressJet becomes a reality, it will be the largest independent National airline and can code share with carriers beyound Continental Airlines INC. The 717 could just be the right aircraft for this expansion if the 717 program lasts another year.
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Sun Nov 18, 2001 2:23 pm

I would like to see the 717 catch on in central and south america.
 
Guest

Boeing757fan

Sun Nov 18, 2001 2:30 pm

Nope what? Nope, the 717 won't catch on in central and south america? How do YOU know?
 
Guest

RE: LGBphotos...

Sun Nov 18, 2001 3:15 pm

Once again look at the topic, you will see what I am saying NO! too. This is the second time I told you.

 
Guest

RE: LGBphotos...

Sun Nov 18, 2001 3:35 pm

Well it would be nice if you would refer what your answer is to.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Mon Nov 19, 2001 3:04 am

No. Destroys the positive aspects of the B737NG-family (commonality etc) and increases the cahnce that the airline switches over to Airbus when it has grown out of the B712.

And I´ve to agree with Ray. He has the point: todays (tomorrows) regional jets like the 928JET and ERJ-195 are as capabale to operate the 717´s mission but cost less AND offer more comfort.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Mon Nov 19, 2001 3:43 am

I Truly Believe that the 717 will catch on GLOBALLY in a couple of years. Once The Airlines Review, and Study it, and Test it, and Look at it some more. They will Be Literally Handing Over the dough for handfuls.
 
Guest

RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Mon Nov 19, 2001 4:04 am

I HATE HOW REGIONAL JETS JUST THINK THAT THEY CAN COME IN HERE AND TAKE OVER THE BIG BOYS. THIS JUST REALLY PISSES ME OFF  Pissed
 
e7plnr
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Mon Nov 19, 2001 4:15 am

Come one Critter!!!!

It is called competition!!!!

Do you know how many miles of cables are run through a DC-9????

Take a look at a 717...same thing!!!

Go Airbus!!
 
Guest

RE: LOL

Mon Nov 19, 2001 7:04 am

I sure do hope critter592 doesnt do any type of self mutilation once his 717 is done.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Will The 717 Survive?

Mon Nov 19, 2001 10:14 am

I think the reason why AC won't consider the Bombardier CRJ900 is that it's too big to be a regional airliner and too small to replace their older twinjets.

That's why I think the 928JET has a big chance: Fairchild-Dornier has pitched it specifically for mainline operations. That means no worries about pilot scope clauses and F-D could build quite a lot of these jets for a surprising amount of airlines around the world that need them (for example, in Europe the 928JET could be perfect for flying out to Corsica, Sardinia from France and Italy and flying out to the other Greek islands from ATH).

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