FlagshipAZ
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Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 1:31 am

Greetings folks...
Just trying to think of all the carriers, past & present, that operated both the DC-10 & L-1011. Here's what I came up with...
Pan Am
Eastern
Delta
British Airways
United
American Trans Air
Are there any others? All replys are appreciated. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
AWspicious
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 1:34 am

Air Canada (L10); Canadian Pacific/Canadian Airlines (DC10); Royal Airlines (L10); Air Transat (L10); BWIA (L10).......
Nevermind political correctness - Envision using your turn signals!
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: AWspicious

Mon Nov 19, 2001 1:47 am

Errr...I don't recall any of those airlines operating both the DC-10 & L1011. I know Air Canada never had any DC-10, and Canadian didn't have any Tristars. Or did they? Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
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lindy field
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 2:45 am

Add Iberia and Air France to your list.
 
charliecossie
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 2:49 am

Um, the post is about airlines that operated *both* the DC10 *and* the Trimotor.

FlagshipAZ:
Did UA have Tristars?
 
Guest

RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 2:51 am

You forgot Delta


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Aloha 737-200!!  Wink/being sarcastic
 
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 2:53 am

Delta DC-10


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Aloha 737-200!!  Wink/being sarcastic
 
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lindy field
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 3:03 am

Charliecossie,

Don't know if you were challenging me, but if so:

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And to answer the UAL query:


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AY-MD11
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 3:11 am

theres so many of em..! Finnair,SAS,Northwest,Ghana Airways,JAL,KLM,AliItalia,Varig,Continental....Im not the mood for em all.



regards,
AY-MD11
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: AY-MD11

Mon Nov 19, 2001 3:36 am

The idea is to list all the airlines that operated BOTH the DC-10 & the L-1011. The carriers you mentioned either operated one or the other, but not both. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Lindy Field

Mon Nov 19, 2001 3:43 am

Thanks, Lindy! I've never would have known that Iberia & Air France had both types.  Wink/being sarcastic Best regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 4:01 am

I dunno if you guys know, but TWA did operate 1 DC-10 for the month of December in 1983 for about 3 weeks, and it did wear full TWA Colors, so I guess we could count TWA as one. Can someone find a photo of that TWA DC-10 please and post it on here.




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FlagshipAZ
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RE: Critter592

Mon Nov 19, 2001 4:08 am

Holy smokes! Did TWA really have a DC-10 in their fleet & colors??? This I have to see.  Wink/being sarcastic Please, if anyone has a photo of TWA's DC-10, please post it. Much obliged to you, Critter, for bringing this bit of rare info to light. Best regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
Captain.MD-11
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 4:10 am

I've never seen an AF L10-11 or DC-10 b4! You learn something new every day!
Add another to your list

Caledonian
Twins,twins, everywhere.... but where are the three holers?
 
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lindy field
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 4:51 am

FlagshipAZ--You've answered several of my aviation queries in the past. I'm glad I could fill in a gap in your aviation knowledge.

Best,

L. Field
 
charliecossie
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 5:35 am

FlagshipAZ:
No challenge!
One or two were posting airlines that had operated one of them - not both.

Re UA:
Simply a question.
 
Skymonster
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 6:07 am

Hey, I remembered another...

Arrow Air


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Photo © Joe Fernandez - Aviation Photography of Miami



Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
swissair
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 6:14 am

Hawiian i believe used both... maybe not at the same time but im quite sure thay have used both, and the DC-10s are being replaced by 767s....
 
Skymonster
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 6:39 am

Caledonian (the charter operator)


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Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
Skymonster
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 6:48 am

LAM

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A
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
Skymonster
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 7:18 am

Kuwait Airways also operated both TriStars and DC-10s on lease from British Airways (both with Kuwait Airways titles) since the Gulf War, and Saudia has operated a leased DC-10 (in their old colours) as well as a bunch of their own TriStars. No evidence of these on A.N, but both DC-10s are pictured in the "Great Airliners" book on the DC-10.

Thats about for me  Wink/being sarcastic

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
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lindy field
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 7:21 am

Nice work, Andy! Have you started uploading photos to the database again? I'm looking forward to seeing more of your work.
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: The List So Far...

Mon Nov 19, 2001 7:51 am

Thanks to one & all for your help.  Wink/being sarcastic Here's the list of all known operaters of both the DC-10 & the L-1011...so far.
Air France
American Trans Air
Arrow Air
British Airways
Caledonian
Delta
Eastern
Hawaiian
Iberia
Kuwait Airways
LAM
Pan American
Saudia Arabian
TWA (need photo of their DC-10, please)
United
That's 15 known carriers. Any more out there? Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 10:16 am

TWA never operated a DC-10. Air France, Iberia and Kuwait DC-10s were wet leases. As for Saudia operating DC-10s, they would also have been wet leased. As for LAM, I'm not sure.

Makes 9 that operated both with their own crews on a regular basis.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: Critter592

Mon Nov 19, 2001 10:19 am

Just to satisfy myself I looked through the OAGs from December 1983. No TWA DC-10 listed anywhere. I did, however, discover that TWA operated a Tristar to Tucson. Never knew that one.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
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lindy field
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 10:55 am

Someone posted a photo of a leased DC-10 flying for Saudia on the Photo Requests forum. Have a look for yourselves.

No sign of the TWA DC-10. Perhaps a figment of someone's imagination.
 
United Airline
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 4:53 pm

Cathay Pacific operated the L 1011 as well........ So did Dragonair......
 
milesrich
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 5:33 pm

Delta, Eastern, Pan Am, British Airways, and United operated the two aircraft at the same time.

Delta is the only carrier that ordered both new from the manufacturer. Delta ordered five DC-10-10's from MDD when Lockheed delayed L1011 delivery dates. These aircraft were then sold to United and leased back for a few years. Delta then acquired Western's DC-10's in the merger. United acquired theirs from the purchase of Pan Am's Pacific system.

Eastern leased a few DC-10-30's to operate MIA-LGW service, as the L-1011-1 did not have the range, and they must have felt that the L-1011-500 was not large enough.
 
aviasian
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 7:35 pm

Please add Garuda . . . it operated its own fleet of DC-10-30s but did also briefly operate an L-1011-500 in a hybrid Royal Jordanian livery.

KC Sim
Bangkok
 
SBE727
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 9:03 pm

has everyone forgot about Air Atlanta Icelandic....they use to operate quite a few tristars although i think most have now been phased out and replaced with 767-200's and more 747's....good company to work for too.lots of variety and none of the boring normal schedule flights.you never knew where you could end up with Air Atlanta...made it interesting.
 
Airbus Lover
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Mon Nov 19, 2001 9:27 pm

MAS DC-10
Angel Air L1011 (leased from Kampuchea AIrlines)
Kampuchea Airlines
Air Siam DC-10
 
bobnwa
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:30 am

It is amazing how many did not read the qualifier "both" when responding to this message!!!!!
 
AndyEastMids
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:43 pm

IMissPiedmont,

You're right on the wet leases - the LAM would probably have been a wet lease too, as it was an Air Portugal a/c. The Saudia was leased from Skyjet, presumably for the Hadj, but did wear Saudia colours. The word "operated" is a bit subjective, but I interpreted it to mean flying services in the airline's colours.

LindyField,

Life's kinda busy - I'll find that BA DC-10 at SAN this weekend!
 
mandala499
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:59 pm

Agree with KC Sim,

Add Garuda to the list. In the 80s and early 90s they leased some Tristars from US during Hajj periods. It was funny sitting in DPS and see a GA DC10, GA(World) DC10 and GA(ATA)L1011 and GA(Air America) L1011 on the same ramp! They were doing scheduled flights (not Hajj flights) so they count !

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Tue Nov 20, 2001 9:30 pm

I'd have to discount wet leases, even if they operated in an airline's full livery...those aircraft are never part of the lessees fleet operationally. When an aircraft is wet-leased to another airline, the exact type is rarely specified and is largely immaterial to the lessee.

Wet-leased aircraft are crewed and maintained by the lessor, insured by the lessor and the lessor is responsible for operations and dispatch.

A couple of examples;
-----
Hajj flights are tendered by the "brand" airline, Saudia, Garuda etc. You will see them in the back pages of Flight International. The tenders specify the dates of operation, the number of passengers to be carried and the routes. The only specification about the aircraft will be something like..."a widebody, less than 5 years old"

So if an A330 or MD-11 shows up on a Hajj service, it isn't because that airline specifically wanted an A330 or MD-11.
-----
British Airways wet-lease ERJ-145 aircraft from British Regional on some European and Domestic flights, crewed and maintained by British Regional, but with full British Airways branding.

So do British Airways operate the ERJ-145? No! Big grin
-----
So when the likes of Saudia, Iberia, Air France, Kuwait Airways, Garuda and LAM wet lease an L1011/DC-10, did they operate it? No! Big grin

I'd list the airlines that operated both the DC-10 and the TriStar as;

American Trans Air
Arrow Air
British Airways
Caledonian Airways
Delta
Eastern
Hawaiian Airlines
Pan Am
United

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
mandala499
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Tue Nov 20, 2001 9:36 pm

What you mentioned was a recent policy by Garuda. Before, they used the wet leased planes for the regular service, and use their own planes for Hajj. But yes, I agree with your point, lately, your point is even more true because they are becoming more like charters ! not even wet lease!

It was an interesting episode though  Smile
Does anyone have any pics of GA tristars? Or even better, the GA DC10, GA/World DC10 and GA(AirAm/ATA) Tristar on the same ramp? I WANT ONE !

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
daks
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Tue Nov 20, 2001 10:15 pm

Add Aer Lingus , that is if you want to count MD-11's although both were lease in's and were not operated at the same time

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AndyEastMids
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Tue Nov 20, 2001 10:25 pm

I think the point with the DC-10/L1011 thing was that the two designs were direct competitors, and that's what makes airlines operating both unusual. The MD-11 came much later and therefore I think the combination of L1011 and MD-11 is less interesting.

And with respect, on the subject of wet leases, I totally disagree. To all intents and purposes, if an airline paints an airplane in their own colours, even if it is a wet lease, they want passengers to think it is their airplane. If they weren't bothered, they'd leave it in the colours of the lessor. And you try telling passengers that BA doesn't operate ERJs. The only reason why you're making this distinction is because you happen to have some inside knowledge about how Iberia provisioned their L1011s, or who owned LAM's L1011. All these types were likely to have been in the airline's timetables (with the exception of Hadj leases), and in almost every case the passenger perception would be that the airline operated that type even if the crew happened to mention that they were from Iceland, or Brasil, or where ever.

Andy
 
daks
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Tue Nov 20, 2001 10:33 pm

did anyone mention American Trans Air ?
 
fanofjets
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Wed Nov 21, 2001 2:17 am

One more for ya...
AEROPERU:

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I believe FAUCETT could be another candidate - they did fly the L1011; did they ever fly the DC-10?
The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
BCal Dc10
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Wed Nov 21, 2001 2:23 am

AndyEastMids.
sure its unusual if both were purchased/leased and operated at the same time. I understand your point there. But some of them weren't.
BA were customers of the Tristar, but only operated the DC10 because of their shambolic takeover of the fine British Caledonian Airways. The DC10 looked 948357329847 times better in the BCal livery than it ever did in BAs.
IMO.
 
jetBlue320
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Wed Nov 21, 2001 3:08 am

Yes, TWA did indeed operate one DC-10 in sub for L-1011s.. They leased it from Eastern I believe, but it didn't fly in TWA colors for very long, my cousin flew on it, and I told him it must have been an L-1011, he said NOPE, THE SAFETYCARD SAID DC-10-10. I know it is a rare piece of information, and I know that some of you older Airliners.net photographers must have a pic in your collection somewhere, if so, please upload it.

I do not know if the DC-10 was in FULL TWA Colors, But I think it had the Red Markings on a Silver Fuselage (Eastern)
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: JetBlue320

Wed Nov 21, 2001 11:32 am

If the purported TWA DC-10 was, in fact, leased from EA it was not a -10. Methinks your cousin is blowing smoke up your a**. This unique of an aircraft would surely have been printed or posted somewhere by now. Since I probably have socks older than you, I think you are mistaken.

Time to go to the store for new socks.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Revised Lists & Definitions

Thu Nov 22, 2001 5:47 am

Greetings again, folks...
After a few hours researching A.net's photo database, I've narrowed the list of both DC-10s & L-1011s users. Some clarification is in order regarding the criteria of "operators" and "both". Personally, I consider an "operator" of an aircraft when that aircraft is flying in full company's colors or livery. "Both" applies only to the user of BOTH DC-10 and L-1011 models, altho they don't have to be with the same carrier in the same time period. Again, using A.net's photos as evidence, I made two lists...one listing all carriers using both models in full liveries, and the other list showing one or both models in titles only. Just want to stress that this topic is only for enjoyment & enlightment. It is not a official record. Thanks for everyone's replies & best regards.  Wink/being sarcastic

Full livery (or colors) list...
AeroPeru (Tristars in older scheme, DC10s in newer)
American Trans Air
Arrow Air
British Airways
Caledonian
Delta
Eastern
Hawaiian
Iberia
LAM (DC10 in older scheme, Tristar in newer)
Pan American
United

Titles only list...
Air France
Kuwait
Saudia
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Thu Nov 22, 2001 8:25 am

Does this mean British Airways can be listed as a B727 operator?  Confused

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And as an operator of the Islander?  Confused

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For the reasons I outlined above, there's a world of difference between who's name is on the aircraft and who the operator is.


Regards
CROSSWIND Big grin
 
AWspicious
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Thu Nov 22, 2001 8:27 am

Yeah.... guess I f... fudged that one. Sorry folks.
Nevermind political correctness - Envision using your turn signals!
 
jetBlue320
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Thu Nov 22, 2001 11:41 am

My cousin does smoke, but he would never blow it up people's asses. He knows alot about aviation, (He has flown at least 4 times a month every year
since 1978. He told me he in fact flew on a Trans World DC-10. He said his return trip was the L-1011. 'Nuff Said. WILL SOMEONE HURRY UP AND FIND A PICTURE FOR THE DISBELIEVERS
 
lahaina
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RE: Critter592

Thu Nov 22, 2001 11:54 am

Hawaiian operated both DC-10 and L1011. They started with L1011s, then later sold them and leased the DC10s from AA. For a short time, they had both planes.
 
TWA717_200
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Thu Nov 22, 2001 11:56 am

Sure would like to see that TWA DC-10....
 
papatango
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RE: Light Topic...DC-10/L-1011 Operators.

Fri Nov 23, 2001 12:51 am

delta not only operated L1011's and Dc10's at the same time but also operated B747's in this same time period

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