Airbus A380
Topic Author
Posts: 508
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2001 3:54 am

777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 12:54 am

Maybe this has been asked before, but I'm just wondering if the 777 will one day be made Air Force One? What is the possibility of it becoming one?

regards
Airbus A380
 
TR
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 1:28 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 1:07 am

Obviously the B747s used as (US) Air Force One are quite new and not due to be replaced for many years to come. However in the future a twin engined aircraft like the 777 might be used as Air Force One. The US Air Force already uses B757s for VIP flights so twin engined aircraft are not ruled out due to lack of engines...

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Aric Thalman



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Jason Knutson

 
Andreas
Posts: 5880
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:56 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:31 am

How can they be quite new! As far as I know, it's 747-200, so they can't possibly be new (maybe completely overhauled and probably well maintained but new??
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
ILS
Posts: 2291
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 2:34 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:33 am

It is not a 742. It does not have winglets, but it is a 744. It has a very advanced cockpit. A 777 would not work. In the hump of the 747, holds the computer systems etc., and in a 777, there would be no room for that. It is said that AF1 can "control a war" from the hump of the 747.
 
bacardi182
Posts: 1029
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2000 2:47 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:33 am

a 777 could easily be used as air force one. Just get the air force to buy a 777 and any time the pres steps aboard it will be airforce one.

But the chances of the airfoce replacing their 2 747s that are used for the president is highly unlikely. These planes are only a little older then a decade and they have only a few thousand hours on them. They will be around until somehting bigger comes around to replace them (how about an A380!)
 
ILS
Posts: 2291
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 2:34 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:35 am

The US government would never buy a plane that would help the economy of another country.
 
ly772
Posts: 1269
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 9:33 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:38 am

Maybe it will be a SST made by Boeing.
 
GOT
Posts: 1843
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2000 6:44 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:40 am

A thing that points against a 777 AF1 would be that the worlds most powerfull man should fly in the worlds biggest a/c. However, that will be a true with modification when the A380 comes out.

GOT
Just like birdwatching - without having to be so damned quiet!
 
Hamlet69
Posts: 2460
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 2:45 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:43 am

The two VC-25A's are some of the newest 747-200's Boeing built. They are obviously extremely well maintained (one was recently in Everett for unknown reasons, presumably avionics upgrades) and are unlikely for replacement anytime soon. My guess would be that the replacement program for these birds will be about 15 years from now, with EIS about 5 years after that. By that time, I would bet that the largest version of Boeing's Sonic Cruiser would be the prime candidate for the new 'Air Force One'.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:44 am

The 2 planes (AF1 plus an identical backup) are 747-200's, specifically, VC25A (B747-2G4B). They were delivered in 1990, but construction started in 1986 or thereabouts, when the 747-200 was still in production. Their long construction times were because of the huge amounts of modifications necessary.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: ILS

Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:54 am

Hey ILS,
the two VC25As are 747-200s and they have conventional clockwork flight decks like other 742s. They DO have 744 engines (CF6s) and can act as AWACS if required.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: ILS

Tue Nov 20, 2001 3:39 am

Don't forget that the 707-320C's that the 742's replaced were in service as the primary AF1 aircraft until 1990. So, don't expect the current 742's to be replaced anytime prior to probably 2020 or so.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Guest

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 3:44 am

The 777 doesn't have air refueling capability like the 747-200 versions the USAF has such as the two VC-25s used as Air Force One and the E-4B Airborne Command Posts.
 
LuckySevens
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 6:51 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 4:24 am

TEDSKI,
The 747 was NOT designed with inflight refuel capabilities.
It was added as a modification. Boeing could probably modify the 777 to have the inflight refuel capabilities added.
 
Notar520AC
Posts: 1517
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2001 6:53 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 5:39 am

Is the C-35A able to refuel in midair?
BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
 
spacecadet
Posts: 2788
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:03 am

I still say you're not going to fly the president over the Pacific on two engines. VIP flights are not the same as presidential flights. The president's safety is always of paramount concern, and even if there's only an infinitessimally small added chance of a crash (the chances of one engine failing on a 747 is higher, but the chances of *all* engines failing is lower), it wouldn't be allowed.

Of course, I'm not in the secret service, so I'm just giving my own personal opinion here. But I've seen enough of how these guys work and what goes into the thinking behind presidential aircraft that I don't believe they'd ever use a twin-engine aircraft unless there was really no other option available.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
bacardi182
Posts: 1029
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2000 2:47 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:03 am

why would they choose a 777 when they could get a 3 engined boeing MD-11?
 
NZ767
Posts: 1553
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 9:17 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:24 am

One of the reasons they went for the 747 (V25A) to replace the 707, apart from the age and prestige factor was that the 707 simply became too cramped.
So I couldn't see them going for anything smaller; but hey,who knows?

Definitely couldn't see them going for the A380 in any case.
What sort of message would that send to US industry?

Mike.
 
Guest

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:49 am

You guys are really missing the point, age really means nothing. The cycles on AF1 are so few, as it does not fly nearly as often as regular commercial airliners. Also about the systems in the bubble, I am sure they could find somewhere on the 777 to put all of that.
I still think Blair Force One is way cooler!
Iain
 
Guest

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 9:15 am

i think they should use a beechcraft 1900
 
NZ767
Posts: 1553
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 9:17 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 9:35 am

Didn't mean AGE as in the aircraft so much!

What I actually meant was, How would it look for the world's most powerful man to turn up at the APEC conference in a crusty old 707 for instance, when the likes of the Chinese Pres shows up in a 747 (although it's not his exclusively) or the Sultan of Brunei in a 767 or A340?

The 747 (VC25A) has a "presence", no doubt about that!

Actually watching a documentary about it while I type.

Cheers
 
Gregg
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2000 12:49 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 9:44 am

Bacardi182,
I really doubt if the MD-11 was considered to be Airforce one. The DC-10 has the 2nd to the worst crash record in modern jet history. The MD-11 was too new to be trusted as airforce one. The MD-11 now has the worst crash record in modern history.

 
RJ_Delta
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 10:02 am

Hi:

The 777 as Air force One is an excellent idea, specially the new 777-300LR, with special performance of course. In some countries the A340 is the Presidential plane like in Egypt.

Is a great idea., Best regards,

RJ_Delta.
 
vafi88
Posts: 2981
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:32 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 10:04 am

Why doesn't the president get a 747-400 and a new, better paint scheme because that one is a bit old. A 747 will have a better, more advanced cockpit and more room for all of those computers and it would be newer and more reliable and economic.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
Guest

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 10:12 am

A 777 would do nicely as Air Force One but I don't think that the 747's need to be replaced yet. As far as an A380 becoming Air Force One, that shouldn't happen because American presidents should fly on American Made Jetliners.
 
squad55
Posts: 251
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 3:12 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:26 pm

Hamlet;

I actually saw the VC-25A at Everett.... I thought it was some kind of movie 747-200 painted in the VIP Colors...... intersting information... When I saw it had grey engine cowlings on it and not the standard blue ones... Also had no nose cone on it... Very interesting indeed.
 
VirginFlyer
Posts: 3890
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:36 pm

Who said change the colours? Give that man a bullet!  Big grin Seriously, if they go messing with that colour scheme, I will personally ring up the White House ande berate them about it. It has to be one of the coolest colour schemes, and it is a classic from the Kennedy era. Bush says "Don't mess with Texas", I say "Don't mess with that colour scheme!"

As for changing the aircraft, well,t hey spent over a billion dollars on these two, so I don't think they were short term purchases. The engines are very economic - they are the same as the 744's. As for the cockpit, pictures I saw in a National Geographic documentary seemed to show a 737-3/4/500 style flight deck, with some CRT instruments.

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 7982
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 3:56 pm

I think of the VC-25A's as almost 747-400's.

We may see in a mid-life upgrade installation of new versions of the CF6-80 engine and possible installation of Aviation Partners winglets to extend range and lower noise emissions at takeoff.

I expect the VC-25A's to last at least till 2017 time frame, given the meticulous care these planes get.
 
afay1
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:37 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 4:40 pm

So let me get this straight...the President should exchange a billion dollar, barely 10 year old, rarely flown, instantly recognized 747, 4 engined, missile carrying projection of U.S. power for a more anonymous, 2 engined (with bugs), smaller plane based on the same technology? While they could fit the AWACS control center in a 777 why simply shove it in the front when the 747 "hump" serves the purpose perfectly. In fact, why doesn't the U.S. government get rid of all of its distinctive and historic transport aircraft and replace them with indistinguishable foreign planes? Hey, they could buy an A380 and have to spend tons of money on developing ground support and having to land at only bigger airports. Why don't we hide the old presidential 707's at Mojhave or Pima, the U.S. should be embarrassed to have used those old, useless things instead of proudly displaying them as a museum. Of course the 777 is a great plane, and the A380 will be wonderful, but that doesn't mean they are right for Air Force One. And, as a final 2 cents, the Concorde the Tony Blair uses, while awesome, is not owned by the British Government and is chartered from a private company (BA), so its not really a true government transport.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 4:51 pm

NEVER! ! ! ! ! ! !

I'd rather see an IL-62 Air Force One than a 777 Air Force one!

I hope that will never happen!

747s and four engine jets forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Aric Thalman

Bring back the Concorde
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 3331
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:00 pm

as one of the better short-field planes around, given its size, I sure would vote for it. But I'm a bit biased: I live near Manchester (NH) Airport and could certainly count on seeing this plane several times, esp. around election year campaign time. We already routinely get the Presidential 757s.

Chris in NH
 
Airbus Lover
Posts: 3163
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2000 10:29 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:18 pm

Lots of parts of the A380 is to be built in US and that helps lots of US companies.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:49 pm

I think AF1 is a 742 with 744 engine & heavy cockpit modifications (744 displays maybe?).

What I want to know is, if you have AF1, what's the need for the E4B Kneecaps? I heard that the E4B have a full battle command post suite, whereas AF1 only has a basic war room (which is also quite advanced)?

I heard than when US is seriously threatened with war, the president would be transferred from the VC25, to an E4B... Is this true?

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 11:42 pm

The E4B (The Doomsday Plane) is always within a certain time away from the president when he is travelling - I forget how far it is allowed to be, maybe no more than 2 hours flight time away - a bit of an issue when the Prez is in Moscow or some such place.

The difference is that AF1 is a publicity plane. Full of creature comforts up front, and a lot of press parasites in back. The E4 is a military command post - much less on comfort, a lot more comm gear and military command stuff. And NO PRESS!

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
garuda
Posts: 573
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2000 10:53 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 12:14 am

When USAF was looking for the VC137 (B707 AF1) replacement, some of the criteria were 4 engines and 3 cockpit crew.

Boeing did offer the B747-400, then still in design/testing stage, but apparently USAF did not like the idea of the most powerful man in the world is flown by two persons only.

McDonnell Douglas did promote the DC10-30 series (MD11 was stiil on drawing board at that time), since USAF had several KC10 Extenders, again, it lacked one engine.

Hence, the only suitable American-made airplane is B747 classic. However the VC25 is not just an ordinary B747-200 with B747-400 engines. It has a in-flight refueling capability, plus some state of the arts communication and security system.

JA
 
f86sabre
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2001 12:44 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 12:31 am

I believe that Spacecadet has the real reason why a 777 or other twin would not see service as Air Force 1. Reliability, redundancy, and tradition (habit) are the keys. Take a look at the planes that have served as presidential transport of the years:

Boeing 314 Clipper
Douglas VC-45C
Douglas VC-118 (DC-6)
Lockheed VC-121E (Constellation)
Boeing VC-137 (707)
Boeing VC-25A (747-2G4B)

The Air Force seems to favor four engine transports. The safety benefits of using a four engine aircraft for inter-continental flight is fairly obvious. It should be noted that most of the aircraft on the list above are from several decades ago when reliability is not what it is now. A four engine jet just gives them piece of mind. I personally believe that a properly maintained twin could operate as a presidential transport safely and reliably without problem. I just don’t see it happening.

I believe the 757s that the Air Force operates are used for the V.P., cabinet level folks, and other dignitaries. I have not heard of an active President using one.

On a side note, the President has used corporate jets and turbo props on a few occasions. They were used mainly to get into and out of small airports. The President has used the following:

Beach VC-6A (L26) (2 engines)
Aero Commander U-4B (B90) (2 engines)
Lockheed VC-140B "Jetstar" (Model 1329) (4 engines)

Boeing has a good web page that highlights the 747s currently in use as presidential transports. I got my info on past presidential aircraft from the USAF Museum’s web page.

Best Wishes,
F86sabre

 
heavymetal
Posts: 4442
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 12:43 am

I thought the 747 Air Force One was lost in that movie? With Harrison Ford? Or was that a fake?







 Wink/being sarcastic  Wink/being sarcastic  Wink/being sarcastic  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Likesplanes
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2001 3:58 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 9:05 am

This may be slightly off topic here, but I would like to point out that the notion of one specific aircraft being permanently designated as "Air Force One", is incorrect. Yes, the 747 type aircraft most commonly associated with Presidential travel, is the one most often given the designation of Air Force One. However, this plane is only Air Force One when the President is actually on the plane. At any other time, it is just another military aircraft. This title is the Presidents' personal call sign, not the aircrafts'. Any plane that the President happens to travel on immediately becomes Air Force One. As F86sabre pointed out in an earlier post, the President has used corporate jets and turbo props in the past. These too, immediately become Air Force One as soon as he steps on board.

There is a television special on this very topic that has played numerous times in the past few months, and I have watched it 4 times. The narrator of the program states this fact specifically. As well, the Presidential pilot who normally flies the plane we usually see the President on, makes this same point. He is being interviewed in the cockpit, and he states that "we are waiting for the president to board the plane", and a few moments later he says "The President (speaking of Clinton) is on board, and we are now Air Force One".

This program also showed an interview with the pilot that flew the then Presidential 707, that was taking President Nixon on his last flight, shortly after leaving office. While they were still in the air, they were all (including Nixon) listening to Gerald Ford being sworn in as the new United States President. As soon as Ford had taken the oath, the pilot radioed out asking for the plane's call sign to be change from Air Force One, to SAM 27,000. He then indicated to the camera that just like that, we were no longer Air Force One, we were just another military aircraft.

If anyone gets a chance to see this program, you really should watch it. It is facinating, as it follows the history of Presidential flight, with lots of film footage of what it is like on board, flight preparations, interviewing past President Clinton, and much more. Well worth watching.




 
VirginFlyer
Posts: 3890
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 9:21 am

Likesplanes - I think that could be the National Geographic doco I was referring to before. I second that, it is very good.
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
NZ767
Posts: 1553
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 9:17 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 9:35 am

Hi Likesplanes,

I've watched that same National Geographic documentary 4 times in the last 3 days.

When Bill Clinton was here in New Zealand (1999 I think) for the APEC conference he flew from Auckland (AKL) to Queenstown (ZQN) in a corporate jet (can't remember what!) while the 2 VC25As went without him to Christchurch (CHC) to meet up with him a few days later.
This was because of Queenstowns short runway.
Also, his logistical equipment was taken to Christchurch on C141s, C5s etc and then transferred to C130s for onward travel to Queenstown for the same reason.

Would be heaven to be part of the crowd that organises all this!

Cheers,
Mike
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 10:24 am

- The VC-25 does not carry missiles
- It cannot be "used as AWACS"!
- There is no such a/c as the "C-35"
- The USAF's VIP 752ER's should be called C-32A

If you want the 777 to become Air Force One, get Bush to travel on one of AA's, UA's, DL's, or CO's 772's, and voila! Your wish has just came true! Also, it can demonstrate his confidence in the US airline industry or something...

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
VirginFlyer
Posts: 3890
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 10:41 am

LY - whoever said anything about missiles. Coming to think of it, the E-4s and VC-25s should be able to carry some form of self defense missile, such as sidewinder, just in case.
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
jetBlue320
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:01 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 10:53 am

Guys, I have personally toured both VC-25A's. They both have 747-200 Flight Decks, They are 747-200s all the way. The only thing that would even come close to is being a 747-400 is the Engines, and the APU and strengthened wing and tail. I repeat, The VC-25 has a 742 flight deck with some extremely Fancy equipment. It does in fact have 2 LCD Displays that will monitor the systems, but that is it.
 
Guest

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 11:14 am

I think it would look cool. I wouldn't mind seeing that thing fly around the World! Anyway, maybe someday it will be a presidential plane. I have no idea. How about an Airbus jet like a 330, or 340. What about an A380!!! HAHAHA- just a thought? but if anyone wants to comment they can!!!!
 
Thumper
Posts: 520
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2001 2:12 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 11:15 am

Gregg
Why do you say the MD-11 has the worst crash record in modern avaition? I dont recall any MD-11'S going down! I thought at the time do to the number of flights that with one crash the Concorde has one of the worst crash records! An average MD-11 has more flight in one year than the Concorde has in 25 years!
 
rj777
Posts: 1548
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

Concept Drawing?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 2:29 pm

For those people who would like to imagine.... anyone want to try a 77AF1 Drawing?
 
Illini_152
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 6:00 am

RE: Concept Drawing?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 3:58 pm

Minor clarification- ANY aircraft that the President is in is NOT automaticly "Air Force One" Only an Air Force plane. If he is in, say, a C-3 Greyhound, then its "Navy One" and the UH-60 that flies him to Andrew AFB is "Marine One" If Bush were to board an American or United flight it would be "Executive One"

Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
Guest

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 5:22 pm

Fighting Illini is right!

I was just going to say that.

Anyway, I think the 747 VC-25A and B has a phenomenol livery scheme. Probably the best looking plane in the sky in the world. Real American class.
 
na
Posts: 9129
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 7:06 pm

A 777 as AF1? No way unless the US is falling into serious recession by 2015. Why should the president travel in a secondrate aircraft like the 777 when the country produces a more impressive one with the 747?

The current AF1 are just through their first third of lifespan. Don´t expect the AF to think about a replacement before 2010!
 
United Airline
Posts: 8766
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: 777 As Air Force One?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 7:59 pm

NFW (I am sure you guys know what I mean) for the A 380!

The B 747 is the Queen of the Skies. Why on earth should they get the B 777 to replace their two B 747s?

By the way, are they equiped with glass cockpits?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], dmorbust, Eirules, gatibosgru, hoons90, Miami, PanAm_DC10, twaconnie, Yahoo [Bot] and 181 guests