airplanetire
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What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 2:10 am

First of all, before I start, if you are going to start a fight, please do not read this. No body wants to read big fights anymore (if they ever did), so just don't start one. This is not an A vs. B war. I love both companies. Thank you.

Okay, now that that is out of the way, I'll begin. My question is: What is Boeing thinking!?!

I can't stand to see either Boeing or Airbus in trouble, but right now my concerns are with Boeing. Airbus is exceling in sales. Don't worry about the hard times for aircraft sales, Airbus over the past five years has done very well. Look at things over a broader period. Not just now.

Airbus dominates Europe now in a big way. Boeing has lost any footing they had there. There aren't a lot of airlines in Africa, but there are a few that both Boeing and Airbus would most deffinately want to be selling their aircraft to. The two major ones I can think of are SAA and EgyptAir. SAA is unhappy with their new 738s and may very well choose the A320 over those now. That's a little bit of sales that Boeing loses. EgyptAir is buying a lot of Airbus aircraft now, so that's another lost chance for Boeing. Although Africa is not dominated by either of those companies, but rather older aircraft from various places, I still believe that every last sale is important. In South America, lots of airlines are starting to go with Airbus instead of Boeing, or never went with Boeing. A few of those are: Lan Chile, TAM, Aerolineas Argentina, Aces Colombia, and others.

Here is the worst of it though. Boeing is losing a lot of ground on their home turf, North America. US Airways is buying Airbus now. No Boeing. United Airlines just keeps getting more A320/319s. They get some Boeings, but more larger ones, nothing like 737s. Northwest Airlines is replacing their fleet with Airbuses. Not Boeings. America West keeps getting Airbuses. Not Boeings. Jet Blue only operates Aibuses. They probably never will get Boeings. A few airlines in the US still choose Boeing. Delta, American, and Southwest purchase only Boeing aircraft these days. American has those A300s, but haven't bought any other Airbuses except those.

Airbus is a tough competitor to Boeing, but I think Boeing can do better than they are. You might say that Airbus has an unfair advantage over Boeing because they are subsidized by the government and Boeing is not, but that's an obstacle that Boeing has to overcome. It is a fact and it is something that probably will not change. Maybe Boeing need to suffer some losses to make gains. Airbus has virtually given some of their aircraft away in order to gain customers. Maybe Boeing need to do that in places like Europe for a little while until maybe they get some customers. Boeing needs a new product. Although lots of these new things they come up with are great, they need to develop a totally new aircraft. The Sonic Cruiser may sound good, but no other companies are developing those. Boeing should try to compete with those companies, not try to soley open a new market. If they want to go ahead with the Sonic Cruiser, fine, but they need some other stuff besides just longer and longer versions of what they already have. The 737 probably has no life beyond the versions currently being produced. It's been around too long. A replacement should be made. A competitor for the A380 should be made. 757s and 767s should be replaced later on.

Well now you've heard what I think. As I said up top, I love both Boeing and Airbus and I would hate to see either of them suffering. Boeing is suffering though, in my mind. I don't want them to put Airbus out of business, just make everything a bit more equal. Now I want to hear what you think. Don't worry about what you say, as long as you are not dirrectly starting a fight. Some people may not agree with you, which is okay, but don't start calling people names and saying someone's opinion is wrong. Thanks!

Best Regards,
Airplanetire
 
NWA ARJ
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 2:19 am

How can boeing be losing alot of sales in North America. You said Northwest is replacing their fleet with A319's and A320's. What are you smoking. Northwest is taking deliveries of the 757-200 and soon the 757-300. They are taking deliveries soon of 2 747-400's. I dont think you know what you are talking about but i think boeing will do just fine.


ARJ
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lindy field
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 2:23 am

Likewise a fan of both, but I don't worry about Boeing losing its dominance. In fact, I'm pleased to watch their market share decline towards 50%. This trend will force them to innovate in aircraft design. It has already. The Sonic Cruiser will hopefully be a resounding success, and one which will represent a true step forward in civil aviation technology.

I disagree with you about the nature of competition. Boeing should develop the Sonic Cruiser, partly because no one else is developing similar planes. If they can pull it off, it will be a resounding success. Yes, they should seriously consider 757 and 767NGs as well to cover their bases. In fact, a souped up 767-300 is being examined.

Hopefully, the A380 will be a success as well. Airbus has a good product line, but should consider an A300 replacement. Much has been said in these forums about the lack of a suitable replacement aircraft for the A300. They might consider a Sonic Cruiser competitor as well...

 
travellin'man
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 2:25 am

The 100+ seat market is probably destined to be split 50-50 between them, so until that level is reached, Boeing will only appear to lose ground. In many ways they make the same products, as many of their types correspond exactly, having been designed to compete against one another (I'm thinking mostly of the 737 and the A320).

There are so many things to discuss in your post, that it's hard to know where to start.

Airbus is gaining market share for a variety of reasons. They've got great products which were designed as improvements over existing ones (A320 vs. 737 classic). They had empty order books, and so could afford to give them away at lower rates. Boeing instead had an overburdened, often inefficient production line which meant they couldn't churn out aircraft fast enough to satisfy demand, or at a lower cost. Sometimes Boeing was arrogant with customers, like USAirways, and lost them. (US manufacturers have a long history of not paying attention to market changes; just look at US carmakers!)

Airbus has been able to design almost all new products for the market place. Boeing has products of various ages, and is invested in making money off them (not to mention that as a publicly held company they need to make money!). It makes them a little less flexible. If the market changes in another 30 years, and Airbus is still making its current products, you will see that they will also scoff at any newcomer who has new ideas about planes.

Anyway just a few thoughts.
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BA
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 2:29 am

While I agree with you that Boeing has lost there foothold on Europe, they are still generating good sales there. Don't forget KLM, they will likely ALWAYS be an all Boeing airline. Airbus is just become competitive and is taking most of the orders in Europe. In the US, I Boeign is dominating. While yes, there are a lot of Airbus orders, there are a lot more Boeing orders ESPECIALLY widebodies.

Egypt Air is really 50/50 they are taking delivery of both Airbus narrow-bodies (the A320s) and Boeing widebodies (the 777). They actually have a good sized 777 order.

Boeing is doing perfectly fine, if you count all the sales each have had so far this year, its about a tie.

Regards.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
heavymetal
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 2:51 am

You're generalizing way too much (how many times can we hear the line "X Airline is unhappy with their Y model" on this forum?)

For every North American airline you quote buying Airbus, there's another buying Boeing (CO? AA? ATA? NW?). According to Airliner World, Africa, Asia and South and Central America are all bigger markets for Boeing than Airbus. Plus, in Europe, the dynamic, entreprenerial(and profitable) airlines like Ryan Air, Excel and easyJet all seem to prefer Boeing products while the national lines have all been dumping jets that have many more profitable years left in a race to stuff their fleets with Airbuses (and we've seen how wise a financial move THAT was of late havent we?)

Boeing has indeed made some missteps in the past. If you ask me they should have bought Embraer, not McDouglas. But hindsight is 20/20.

I readily admit Boeing is on treacherous ground with the SC. But in all fairness do you think your kids are gonna want to fly New York to London in 6, 7, or 8 hours in 30 years? Just because we love airliners on this forum doesn't cover up the fact that MOST people dont want to sit on them for that long.

Boeing is exploring the creativity of 'faster', and the potential of 'much faster'. They're being imaginative, which can have great consequences either way.

But I imagine Boeing is looking forward to the first few months of SC operations, when a buzz hits the travel industry that passengers prefer to be booked on faster airliners. Suddenly all those shiny Airbuses(and fairly enough, 73's 75's and what have you) are going to look much like the forlorn propliners did on the tarmacs of mid 1960s America next to 707s and 727s....old fashioned.
 
Jer32382
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 3:06 am

As for US Airways buying Airbus, US isn't going to be around much longer. They can hardly affored to maintain what they have right now.
 
travellin'man
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 3:20 am

As a follow up to my post, I wanted to add that where Boeing does its R+D, it ensures its own future. Just look at how the 777 sells like no tomorrow. It will always be a balancing act for them, selling what they have already designed, improving those designs, and then knowing when to start from scratch with something new. The problem is probably that shareholders don't like to hear that you're going to the drawing boards all the time; they want to see you out there selling what you've already got. Current profit vs. investment for long term profits.
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Alessandro
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 3:56 am

I don´t worry too much about Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier and Embraer all get money from their goverment(s) to develope new airplanes. Antonov,
Illjysin, Tupolev and Beriev suffer, Russia and Ukraine hardly spend any money to develope new planes.
Thats sad....
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
BA
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 4:04 am

Heavymetal and Jer32382,

The airline's financial positions has nothing to do with the fact they bought Airbus aircraft. Whether they bought Airbus or Boeing, it wouldn't have made a difference to there current financial problems.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Guest

RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 4:06 am

First and foremost, I will state that I have always been a Boeing fan. Period. The 747-400 and 777 are probably the most magnificent aircraft I have ever flown on. They are also quite beautiful to look at.

Now, in my opinion, I feel Boeing will, in the long run, come out ahead of Airbus, as Boeing is now concentrating on speed, rather than size. Hence, their cancellation of the 747-XX project. I strongly feel that
future aircraft sales will in fact be based on speed, and in this respect, Boeing will come out ahead. I have a strong hunch the A380 is not going to be the mammoth
success Airbus hopes it to be. For one thing, airports are presently not properly equipped to handle loads of 600 pax per aircraft. I cannot see this changing (airport modifications to handle multi A380 arrivals/departures). In short, bottlenecked congestion is going to be the downswing factor for the A380 aircraft.

Simply stated, but again, only my opinion.

Sincerely,
Canadi>nBoy Luvs Boeing
 
DeltaBoy777
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 4:23 am

I am a huge fan of Boeing, as well as CanadianBoy I see, and I don't think Boeing is losing any ground to Airbus!! Take Delta for example, an all Boeing airline has 82 orders in place for 737-800's which will probably begin in 2002, economics pending. They also have orders for 6 777-200's, 1 767-300, and 5 767-400's. That's alot of orders to Boeing if you ask me. Although I am a big fan of the 757-200 and -300, and 767's, I think they could make a series out of the 757 more, and maybe even the 767 (but it's already pretty big). The 757 is the most versatile Jumbo Jet I think there is and it's a big shot over any A320 or similar Jet for Airports. Just my opinion!!
Thanks and Gig Em!
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 4:32 am

We must remember that LOT is an all Boeing Fleet!

Well They operate ERJ-145 and some ATRs but those are regionals  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up
 
manni
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 4:35 am

Fact is that Airbus in 30 years time has grown to the biggest aircraft manufacturer in the 100+ seats categorie. They recieved more orders this year than Boeing. This gives them a 50%+ market share on the moment...
Anyway, as competition brings innovation and quality it is good to see both manufacturers doing well and competing each other.
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Matt767
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 4:55 am

As A boeing fan (Mostly of the 757-767) I must say Boeing is losing ground is the short-medium market (to the A320) and in some cases Medium-Long (to the A330-A340). Boeing's last 2 planes that have realesed the 737-900 I think is a failure because it only has 46 orders. I also consider the 767-400 a major failure for how much R&D they put into it (Since 1994 they also had MD doing enginerring support when it was still indapendant) And today the 764 only has 44 orders! I think it is a failure because Range (It goes the least amount of range in the 767 family) and Celing, I heard with full pax+fuel it can only go up tp FL280. I think the last 737 realese the 739 is not very popular is airlines are getting tired of the 737 and companies like NW,HP,UA are going more airbus for the common type rating eventhough the 737 family has that also. Maybe the A320-A319 is more cheaper then the 737 you never know, because Airbus does not publish it's prices. In the Long-Haul market is almost "King" with the 747-767-777. I think the only markets Boeing is losing out in is Short-Medium and in some cases Medium-Long. Plus I think the A380 will never make it, like the concorde it will be a techincal success but a commerical failure. Their is not much of a market for Long-Haul-Widebody -Twin deck aircrafts.

Hey,Maybe i should be a market analyst for commerical aircraft industry!


Matt 767
 
RickB
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 5:39 am

I think Boeing will do just fine but I must admit I dont think the Sonic Cruiser is their Knight in shining armour. Its not a quantum leap in speed when compared to existing a/c like the 744 and A346. On East coast - Europe transatlantic routes the 30 or 40 minute savings aren't enough to justify substantial increases in airfares, either to economy passengers or business class. Those 1st class passengers who want speed will still chose Concorde because it does justify itself with its speed.

Personally I wouldn't give up my BA club world bed to save 30 minutes, 3 hours (Concorde) maybe, but 30 minutes, no chance !!

On longer haul (10+ hours) it has a chance but I still doubt it will be more than bit player - even business class passengers consider the costs these days.

Besides, I believe Boeing will bring out a new large aircraft similar to the A380. More and more people want to fly long haul and with current worries about DVT and more emphasis on comfort even for economy passengers - size and space will ultimately win the day !!

Its great having both companies around - the competition give us the chance to fly on great aircraft like the A380 and SC in the future and aircraft like the B777 and A340/330 now !!

 
heavymetal
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 5:42 am

BA, I take issue....the fact that these airlines rushed to fleet renewal faster than was financially prudent very much has something to do with their near death status. Might not be the chief reason, but it's a factor. Even European based aviation publications like Flight International have conceeded this point.

I agree that they would have shredded their balance sheets buying either expensive new Airbus or Boeing products....that much is obvious. You'll permit me the indulgence of having a hunch that pro-Airbus politics on the Continenent may have played at least a small role in those purchases.



 
Klaus
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 6:39 am

I´m a bit worried that Boeing is betting on falling fuel prices and ignoring slot restriction and environmental issues with their only (public) new development, while Airbus bets on increasing fuel prices, tightened ecological regulations and increasing problems with slot allocation.

I can´t guarantee my crystal ball to be superior to anybody else´s; But my hunch is that Airbus is a lot more likely to win this gamble than Boeing is. The A380 market might not be as big as Airbus thinks, but the SC market has a non-trivial risk of vanishing altogether.

I do sincerely hope Boeing can work some magic to get through with it, but I´ve got doubts.

And Airbus has a more solid product portfolio with just one product line a little outdated (300/310) instead of all but one (all except the 777). Having everything well-covered is a boon for Boeing; But is it enough in the long run?
 
blink182
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 7:50 am

I am a fan of both Airbus and Boeing, and if anything, more of an equal market share means better,more advanced,faster,more comfortable,cheaper,quieter,fuel efficient, and more importantly- safer aircraft from both companies.

rgds,
blink182
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
heavymetal
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 7:52 am

And Airbus has a more solid product portfolio with just one product line a little outdated (300/310) instead of all but one (all except the 777).

How can the 737-900 and the 767-400 be outdated, and the A300 "a little outdated"?

Just curious.  Yeah sure
 
Guest

RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 9:24 am

Considering that a significant amount of the technology that will fly the Sonic Cruiser is only now being conceived why don't you wait until she flies before you mark her a failure.

Boeing is being very conservative with the public information on its development of this airplane.

When it actually cuts 2 hrs off a JFK-LHR in each direction...many naysayers will have to eat their words...and airlines WILL flock to order.
 
david_mx
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 10:28 am

I think Airbus and Boeing will be 50/50 around the world, maybe there is going to be several Airbus airlines and several Boeing airlines, or Airbus narrow bodies and boeing wide bodies and some others with boeing narrow and airbus wide bodies. Here in Mex, MX is replacing the 727 to A320's but having 767's and 757's for longer routes. I like both Airbus and Boeing, both have good planes for probably different markets.

I honestly don't know what are they going to do with their F100 fleet, and honestly I think the 100 seat market is unattended by both Boeing and Airbus, while the 150+ and bigger planes are spliting to 50/50, and the fight of RJ's (AVRO, CRJ, Dornier, ERJ) is growing up I don't find a nice replacement for the F100.

David.
 
Klaus
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 12:31 pm

Blink182: I am a fan of both Airbus and Boeing, and if anything, more of an equal market share means better,more advanced,faster,more comfortable,cheaper,quieter,fuel efficient, and more importantly- safer aircraft from both companies.

Exactly! I wouldn´t like any one of them becoming a "Microplanes" monopolist.  Wink/being sarcastic


Klaus: And Airbus has a more solid product portfolio with just one product line a little outdated (300/310) instead of all but one (all except the 777).

Heavymetal: How can the 737-900 and the 767-400 be outdated, and the A300 "a little outdated"? Just curious.

Oh, come on!  Smile
I made an effort to put it as neutrally as possible. No difference. Both are "a little outdated", in my opinion. It´s just my opinion that Airbus has fewer "outdated" product lines (one). Which doesn´t automatically mean that those must be "bad products".

Just a little more difficult to sell in the long run. On the other hand, Boeing does have a chance to renew all those lines and leap ahead of the slowly aging buses...  Wink/being sarcastic


JonPaulGeoRngoConsidering that a significant amount of the technology that will fly the Sonic Cruiser is only now being conceived why don't you wait until she flies before you mark her a failure.

I don´t do that. I´ve just got some doubts.

JonPaulGeoRngo: When it actually cuts 2 hrs off a JFK-LHR in each direction...many naysayers will have to eat their words...and airlines WILL flock to order.

At what cost, is the multi-billion-dollar question...
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 12:52 pm

I like to see people buying American being an American, but I too like both companies and also wished that MD was still around too. I'm not too concerned about Boeing yet.

AA is progressively becoming an all Boeing fleet and if they determine that A300 crash is structural problem, then AA will be all Boeing give or take a few Fokkers. AA is the largest airline in the world and AA probably has more 737-800s in its fleet than Egypt Air or other African and S. American companies have planes. AA has more 738s coming their way, along with more 757, 767 and 777s. I don't know if they are getting the 764 or not, thats just something i have been hearing but its not confirmed. What about when it is time to retire the 250+ MD-80s??? I suspect a major 737 order for that.

Continental is also all Boeing, thats the 5th largest airline in the world.

Delta is all Boeing and its the 3rd largest airline in the world.

Add Southwest with their huge 737 orders.

Those four airline's fleets alone practically out number the Airbus fleets of the European companies.

In the meantime, the only MAJOR U.S. airline buying 100% Airbus is USAirways and America West.

Northwest as mentioned is still taking 747s and 757s while taking their Airbuses.

United is still taking 747s and 777s and I think even 757s while taking their Airbuses.

Even some of the smaller majors like Alaska Air and Am Tran are going 100% Boeing.


Boeing is still strong in Asia with wide bodies especially Singapore and Japan Air.

I like both the 737 series and the A320 series but I highly doubt the A320 series will outsell the 737 series in the end.
 
transswede
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 12:55 pm

>When it actually cuts 2 hrs off a JFK-LHR in each
>direction...many naysayers will have to eat their
>words...and airlines WILL flock to order.

Whoah there... Easy with the math - Shaving off 2 hrs JFK-LHR would mean a ~35% speed increase over existing planes. And that, ladies and gentlemen is supersonic. Realistically, one hour seems like the maximium you could shave off by hugging the sonic barrier. And the practical gains will be much less, with holding patterns and congestion around airports, etc... I'd say that 30min shave is the most realistic scenario. And we still don't know how much it's going to cost.
 
THE PAUL
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RE: Airplanetire

Mon Nov 26, 2001 1:53 pm

Airplanetire,

I mostly disagree with what you've said about Boeing.

Here goes......

-------------------------------

Airbus is exceling in sales.

And so is Boeing.

Don't worry about the hard times for aircraft sales, Airbus over the past five years has done very well.

And so has Boeing, your point?

Airbus dominates Europe now in a big way. Boeing has lost any footing they had there.

Airbus dominates Europe, that doesn't surprise many since they are a European company. But Boeing also has lots of business through Europe, there are many large and small European carriers who have at least half of the fleet or more consisting of Boeing aircraft.

SAA is unhappy with their new 738s and may very well choose the A320 over those now.

Source please?

That's a little bit of sales that Boeing loses. EgyptAir is buying a lot of Airbus aircraft now, so that's another lost chance for Boeing.

And SAA is now buying a lot of Boeing aircraft.

oeing is losing a lot of ground on their home turf, North America.

Like hell they are. Boeing is doing VERY WELL in North America.

US Airways is buying Airbus now.

Many others are buying Boeing, so what?


No Boeing. United Airlines just keeps getting more A320/319s. They get some Boeings, but more larger ones, nothing like 737s.


UAL is purchasing A320s right now for replacement of the 727s leaving the fleet. They have so many Boeing aircraft (737,757,767,777,747) that they don't need anymore right now.

Northwest Airlines is replacing their fleet with Airbuses. Not Boeings.

Northwest is not replacing the FLEET with Airbuses, only the DC-10s are being replaced by A330s, that's it. The 717/A318 order to replace DC-9s hasn't been done, and NWA is considering the 744/744ER for replacement of the 742s. Remember the 757s?

America West keeps getting Airbuses. Not Boeings.

Again, one airline who is only getting small Airbuses, and you are forgetting the Boeing aircraft they have gotten.

Jet Blue only operates Aibuses. They probably never will get Boeings.

Jetblue wanted the 738, and was about to order it, but Airbus jumped in and basically gave them A320s just to get the order.

A few airlines in the US still choose Boeing. Delta, American, and Southwest purchase only Boeing aircraft these days. American has those A300s, but haven't bought any other Airbuses except those.

Yes, and those are some of the largest. You're forgetting Continental, ATA, etc. An airline doesn't always have to order all Boeings, just because United operates the A320 for shot haul, doesn't mean that Boeing gets no orders at all. Are you smoking something?

Airbus is a tough competitor to Boeing, but I think Boeing can do better than they are.

Explain.

The Sonic Cruiser may sound good, but no other companies are developing those.

Are any other companies developing the A380?

The 737 probably has no life beyond the versions currently being produced. It's been around too long. A replacement should be made.

HUH? The 737 sells more than ANY other commercial aircraft, today it's still true! It doesn't matter if it's been around for a long time, it's a great design, airline sells have been proving that for decades.

A competitor for the A380 should be made. 757s and 767s should be replaced later on.

I agree on A380 competitor. Why should the 757s and 767s be replaced?

-----------------------------------

Regards,

The Paul
 
usa4624
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Mon Nov 26, 2001 3:49 pm

I think it is too early to know for sure if Airbus or Boeing is in trouble; neither seem to be concerned at the moment...
 
rwy31r
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 1:24 am

I think that it's quite abvoius that Boeing is loosing ground in some regions. For example, here in the M.E. alot of airlines are favoring Airbus products on thier short-medium and long huel routes. I do beleive that airbus's appraoch in this market has been immense. The fact that EK (and SQ) are launch customers to the A380 has givin EK a boost in acuiring A330. QR has ordered A380's and looking seroius about the A330 as a replacement for thier A300-600R, as well as having A320's. other airlines GF, RJ, KU, Syrian Air, MEA are all going with Airbus.

Now as much as we see these airlines going with Airbus, we do see some having a few Boeing products including EK (impressive orders of 777), KU (777's) and the new Oman Air (ordering 737NG).
SV as well as LY are Boeing all the way (except for SV's A300's).. so I still do feel that boeing even though loosing ground in ME, they still have thier infleunces.
I dont think Boeing is that ignorent not to do anything about what the figures might imply.
As I see it, they might as well be sturring up something really special (SC, NG 747 as an answer to A380) on low heat, so that when it comes out it will be what Boeing customers/fans are looking for.

Regards.
"Saudia Three Five hold short Three One Right"
 
OO-AOG
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 2:33 am

Airbus is number 1 in Europe while Boeing is number 1 in the States. As the US market is more than twice bigger than the european one, Boeing is still doing very well. As far as Delta, Continental and American keep their comitment to Boeing, they will stay nr1 in the States.
The advantage, on long term plan, of Airbus vs Boeing is the cockpit comonalty, an extraordinary marketing tool indeed.
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
heavymetal
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 2:51 am

Actually OO, according to Airliner World, Airbus has slightly more outstanding orders in the States presently than Boeing. I think that's a pre-9/11 number though so who knows.

And TransSwede I remember reading something to the effect that the SC will save 1 hour over every 4 flown presently....a 25% speed increase. Thus, four hours becomes 3, 8 hours becomes 6....as someone who works everyday figuring out what consumers like, I can guarantee you, given a choice, they'll take the shorter flight. The trick for Boeing is to make that flight cost no more than a non-SC ticket.

Face it....500 mph is going to be TOO SLOW for airline passengers in 2030 or 2040.
 
wingman
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 3:14 am

It seems very much like bad times for Boeing, but don't worry, Airbus is shitting its pants right now as well. Deferrals apply equally to both manufacturers and Airbus is the one with billion dollar invoices coming right now on the 380. Plus, they can't fire anyone to reduce costs because Leahy already shot off his fat mouth and said Airbus would never do such a thing because they are so superior to Boeing (load of shite that and I for one can't wait to see Airbus announce its first). The truth is that Airbus took 30 years to finally create some balance and competition int his industry. The ONLY reason for their success is the unwavering commitment and financial resources of the worl'ds 3rd, 4th and 5th largest economies.

So, you ask what is Boeing thinking? They're probably wondering what group of assholes in the US gov't ever agreed to let the EU continue mammoth injections of capital into Airbus even with a 50% marketshare. I guarantee you that the minute Boeing slips below 50%, all hell will break loose and either that agreement gets scrapped or Boeing gets a 30 year free ride from taxation, plus 30% R&D funds that never have to be repaid. The pro-Airbus people on this site have yet to prove, as does the EU, that Airbus ever repaid loans on the 330/340 programs. Hence the iron tight concessions from the EU that on the 380, these "loans" would be repaid on a commercial basis. And before you go screaming about military subsidies to Beoing remember that the combined Airbus companies take in more military subsiidies than Boeing does ON TOP of the commercial ones. I cede the fact that Airbus makes great products but their road to success is severely tainted by the fact that they were able to undersell Boeing through an artificial cost structure for 30 years. No one can argue with that fact. No taxes, no accounting, no repayment of loans (except BAe) and no shareholders. Hats off to the EU, they snowed the Yanks big time on this deal.
 
FDXmech
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 3:21 am

Some thoughts on the subject

In regards to Airbus's product line being all new (A300/310 notwithstanding) as opposed to a virtually all derivative Boeing product line.
That's because AI didn't have a product besides the A300/310. But as Boeing tries to squeeze every possible derivative from each aircraft type, AI will do exactly the same, the A318 is a good example of this.

In regard to arrogance and not listening to customers, I think Airbus is doing this very thing by not offering a very long range A330 (comparable to the A340) to compete with the 777. Is this due to insurmountable technical challenges or AI's "arrogance" in deeming that it knows better than its customers what type equipment should be flown on a particular route.
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manni
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 3:27 am

'I for one can't wait to see Airbus announce its first'

What a pathetic phrase!

I feel sorry for these 30000 people that are going to be layed off by Boeing.

Talking about subsidies. Dont forget to mention the 15 billion US$ the American governement gave to its airlines. The majority of them operating Boeing aircraft.
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OO-AOG
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 3:47 am

Wingman

Your post is total nonsense, get your facts straight or get a life.




Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
Joni
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 3:51 am


Boeing isn't as badly battered as the original poster infers. They're selling a lot of widebodies, particularly the 777, and have a very strong market presence in North America. I think that in fact they have such a strong presence that every time Airbus sells planes there people still gasp a bit.

Regarding the product line issue, Boeing has an older product line as such, but you have to play with what you've got. Airbus has a newer product line, but new designs cost money and I'd assume Airbus owes more money than Boeing does. Also, Airbus's military business probably isn't as profitable as EADS', although I admit I have no figures at hand.

One thing that may make things look bad for Boeing is the 747X, which they pushed hard a year ago. However, they had a product and working from that is a very economical way to go. The A380 is expensive to develop, and if Boeing had managed to sell a lot of 747X's, Airbus would have had a much harder time than now. Developing an all-new jumbo would have effectivaly thrown out the 747, which is an asset they wanted to keep.

 
Notar520AC
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 5:33 am

Boeing is an airplane company that will never go under, and if somehow they do, they will go under with a big bang. Boeing once took a risk with the 747 project. Their goal was to produce literally, a jumbo jet able to carry a large number of pax, lots of cargo, and travel unheard of distances at the time. They took a risk in order to make that project turn out. They put the whold company on the edge bankruptcy, but that risk brought them fame and fortune. If Boeing is hungry for that fame and fortune again, they'll need to take another risk. Personally, I don't see the need for the 767 and Sonic Cruiser and the new supersonic jets they're trying to manufacture. That could be a waste of money and raise opperating costs. But if you go too big, like the A380, you might have more seats than you can fill. It's hard right now to tell who's the best, and who will dominate commercial aviation. It's hard to tell who will make the best aircraft, hard to tell when. Right now, we just have to wait and find out.
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aeroguy
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 5:34 am

OO-AOG, I'm not sure I understand why you disagree with Wingman's facts. You may be able to argue with his speculation, but what is wrong with the facts that he stated? He makes some good points about A330/A340 loans and military subsidies, something that Airbus fans don't like to talk about much. If there's anyone out there who can refute Wingman's claims, please make a posting, I'd like to read what you have to say.
 
Notar520AC
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 5:34 am

Boeing is an airplane company that will never go under, and if somehow they do, they will go under with a big bang. Boeing once took a risk with the 747 project. Their goal was to produce literally, a jumbo jet able to carry a large number of pax, lots of cargo, and travel unheard of distances at the time. They took a risk in order to make that project turn out. They put the whold company on the edge bankruptcy, but that risk brought them fame and fortune. If Boeing is hungry for that fame and fortune again, they'll need to take another risk. Personally, I don't see the need for the 767 and Sonic Cruiser and the new supersonic jets they're trying to manufacture. That could be a waste of money and raise opperating costs. But if you go too big, like the A380, you might have more seats than you can fill. It's hard right now to tell who's the best, and who will dominate commercial aviation. It's hard to tell who will make the best aircraft, hard to tell when. Right now, we just have to wait and find out.
BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
 
manni
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 5:50 am

After Boeing announced that it will lay of 30000 people, the US governement announced that it will place a huge order for military jets to boost the aviation industry. The US governement also said, that it hoped with this order that Beoing would not have to lay off that many people. Then there was also, the all of a sudden idea to replace the current refuelling jets of the USAF with Boeings 767s. Ooh and once again, dont forget these 15 billion US$. How about the pressure the US governement had put on ELAL , when ELAL said that it would order the A330, in order not to order them?
I'm sure there are a lot more examples.
Does Airbus get their stake of subsidies of Europe? Yes.
Does Boeing get them of the US? YES!!!
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wingman
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 6:35 am

Where's the nonsense OOG? 30 years no taxes, no accountants, no shareholders, no proof of loan repayment except the Brits. Those are the facts pure and simple. And the point about the fighter jets is rubbish, that went to Lockheed not Boeing. And subsidies aren't subsidies if a government buys the friggin product. I don't recall government orders for 330s/340s or 380s...? The A400M project would be like a 767 tanker project in that the "subsidies" are part of the contract price. Ant the reason I mention "pleasure" at the prospect of layoffs at Airbus is because their holier than thou hypocritical management team deride Boeing for laying off its workers. Nice to know Airbus is so fuc*ing tough when it has the European tax payer to bend over and drill home at will. Airbus's marketshare was bought and paid over 30 years by billions and billions of taxpayer money. This shit has got to end or we'll see the EU put Boeing right out of business period. It's high time Airbus started walking on its own two feet instead of this goddamn baby stroller they get chauffered around in. Love their products but I have not a single shred of respect for the company.
 
eg777er
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 6:40 am

Isn't this the real reason Airbus can offer aircraft cheaper than Boeing?:

The two rivals’ factories illustrate the challenge that Boeing faces. At Boeing, workers swarm all over the aircraft as they build them and fit them out. At the Toulouse wide-body factory of Aerospatiale, which assembles Airbus’s A330s and A340s, a handful of people work on four or five planes. Cockpits, fuselages and wings are flown in from factories all around Europe and snapped together by giant machines. This manufacturing method, dictated by Airbus’s consortium structure, happens to mirror modern ideas about how manufacturers should work—whereas Boeing epitomises mass production circa 1940.

In Seattle everybody always seems to be working flat out; Airbus’s flow of work seems more ordered. Boeing has 216 workers for every aircraft (550 jets made by 119,000 people), compared with 143 (230 by 33,000) for Airbus—a 51% productivity difference, just the sort of gap that enabled Japanese car makers to snatch a quarter of the American car market from Detroit’s Big Three. While the figure masks differences in process as well as productivity, it is large enough to make Boeing pay attention.


The Economist, 26 November 1998.

When it comes to subsidies - countries in Europe are not giving Airbus money. They are investing in their own national industries - a practice that is not new in the western world. Look at the 'fly America' rule that dictates the airlines US government employees must fly. But there's nothing wrong with it.

In the case of Airbus, the British government (with others) are investing in the company. And, in the case of the A320 program, the UK Tresuary has recieved £2 for every £1 invested in the program. But projects such as airliners take years to make money - so don't expect the A330/A340 to start generating investor returns for a couple of years yet. But they will eventually, and the money will be repayed, and more. Don't think that our scrounging chancellor will let them get away with it.

So if you ask the average European taxpayer whether he or she approves of thier government investing in a concern that

a) provides an excellent return.
b) provides jobs.
c) provides excellent export potential which helps the balance of payments

The answer would be YES! IMHO, the US government is mad not to invest in Boeing...but it's only an ideological barrier that is stopping them.
 
M27
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 7:16 am

Some one please tell me what large order of jets the US military placed that occured after 9/11? I don't know of any. As for the 767 tankers, we will see if that takes place, but I don't think it has yet.

By the way, is EADS going to get all the governments of Europe to order the A400 in the quanities they orginaly said they would. Last I heard, they were having a little trouble in that aspect, but they will probably come through. I think thats great cause in this case, the taxpayers will be getting something for their contribution, though I think the c130 and c17 could handle everything they would need quite well. Maybe we can ask the UK in a year or two?

It was mentioned that US airlines got 15 billion dollars after the events of 9/11 and thats super as well. I think there was talk of even more through some loan guarantee in which the airlines would pay it back. Perhaps some others could explain this government loan thing better than I. Did Northwest, America West, US Airways and Jetblue get any of this money? I hope so, cause I would hate to see them loose any of their Airbus orders. Hey, do think the EU could help these airlines out a little more?

I know all this government investment is suppose to provide jobs for the Citizens of the country, but I just wonder sometimes if perhaps the government didn't take that money, each person could spend it on what he wanted, thereby producing the goods and services and thus jobs in this manner? Perhaps the individual taxpayer could do just as good as the government in providing jobs. Of course, there is the problem that if one government decides its wants to subsidize a certain industry, then it makes it just almost a necessity that all other governments that participate in that industry do the same. Will it ever end?
 
David_itl
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 7:35 am


M27, here's an extract from http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/618896/

Lockheed wins joint fighter contract

Pentagon award could hit $200 bln; int'l sales $200 bln

By Russ Britt & August Cole, CBS.MarketWatch.com
Last Update: 4:37 PM ET Oct 26, 2001

WASHINGTON (CBS.MW) -- Lockheed Martin Corp. was the big winner in the Joint Strike Fighter derby Friday as the Pentagon awarded it the largest contract ever in military history.

Lockheed (LMT) beat out Boeing Co. (BA) for the deal, Dow Jones reported ahead of the Pentagon's announcement.

The deal could mean as many as 3,002 planes for the U.S. Air Force, Navy, Marines and the United Kingdom under a $200 billion contract. International sales could double that number to $400 billion over the program's life, which could be decades.

The amount actually awarded Friday was for an initial $20 billion to develop the plane further. If the program goes through to full production for the Pentagon, it could become a $200 billion program. The $200 billion for international sales is a rough estimate, analysts say.


David/MAN
 
flpuck6
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 7:42 am

Great thread. I am writing my senior thesis on the evolution of the privatization of Airbus and how it helped it gain that 50% of the market.
Bonjour Chef!
 
M27
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 7:45 am

David

Thanks for the info, but I thought this had been planned for about 5 years. I even thought the day the winner of the contract was to be announced was set before 9/11/01
 
heavymetal
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 8:00 am

the US government is mad not to invest in Boeing...but it's only an ideological barrier that is stopping them.

And if they did, there would be HOWLS of disgust from European capitals as well as Toulouse. Airbus is coasting along on a tired old philosophy: "The US is so big so we rightfully should play by different rules than them. And they should just deal with it".

Anyway, I'm glad this thread didn't turn into another A vs. B war. Whew!  Wink/being sarcastic
 
vafi88
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Tue Nov 27, 2001 8:23 am

I agree on some points with you Airplanetire, but it's not the present, it's the future of Boeing I'm afraid of.
Let me explain.

I don't think the A-380 construction has even begun yet and a lot of the airlines such as Emirates have already placed orders. Airbus is playing the game safer with not reconstructing the wing or the engines for their A-380, Boeing is going to make something that is smaller but faster and they have to redesign the wing and the engines which is not a safe, but dangerous way to play the game. The current Boeing and Airbus models are absolutely great because they are the normal shape and engines are all pretty close in similarity. What Boeing is doing is it's placing itself in danger of bankrupsy (sorry for my spelling) by making a different wing or faster engine which may not even work. Look at it this way, when the 747 came out everyone wanted them and still have them, but when the concorde came out only 2 airlines have them, I think, British Airways and Air France. I think this is exactly what is going to happen.
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Joni
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Wed Nov 28, 2001 12:30 am


Wingman,

Commercial airplanes are an extremely capital-intensive business. If you look at how Airbus was begun, you can't but agree that it has immensely benefited the countries where it assembles aircraft. And it couldn't have begun without state intervention.

A commercial economy has several very relevant good points to it, but it wouldn't have created Airbus just like it wouldn't have (and still doesn't properly support) spaceflight.

If you look at France, that country derives a huge benefit from the heavy Airbus activities within its borders - exports, political gains and, most important, immaterial aviation-related know-how, which Airbus both develops and maintains there.

Similarly the US benefits from Boeing, and for similar reasons the US has (and continues to) fund Boeing through all the various subsidies we've discussed on this forum time and time again - tax breaks, federally funded Nasa civil aviation research, dual-use projects, political intervention on the market to help Boeing sell planes, buying 747s to ferry the president around, etc.

Painting a black-and-white "airbus gets unfair subsidies" picture is IMO misleading, in light of, for instance, Boeing's tax breaks which have just recently been judged illegal by the WTO.

 
wingman
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RE: What Is Boeing Thinking!?!

Wed Nov 28, 2001 1:38 am

I agree then that in scrapping the tax break scheme, the US gov't should now be free to excuse Boeing from all Federal taxation between 2002 and 2032. A $2B-$4B in declared profits on average over the next 30 years that would mean savings of around $30-45B in exempt income tax. This would then allow Boeing to make the necessary capital investments to match the level of manufacturing productivity in Toulouse. Certainly Europe would not be able to complain about gov't investment in the Boeing COMMERCIAL aircraft unit by doing exactly what the EU has done. Come on, EU investment in the 380 is so absolutely pathetic even the die hards are hard-pressed to defend it. How can Leahy jump up and down one day saying Airbus is the greatest company of all time and Boeing is just a piece of shit AND THEN turn around and beg on his bleeding knees for government funding to help poor old little Airbus build a big shiny airplane. Hypocritical knob-knockers every single last one of them.

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