gsoflyer
Posts: 822
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

Non-US Airlines In The US

Tue Nov 27, 2001 10:09 pm

I've been wondering this lately.
Are non-US Based airlines allowed to fly domestic routes in the US?

Say, Could Air Canada fly to atlanta, then to LA and back to YYZ?

Or Could British Airways do the same?

Or could any of them set up hubs here? (Didn't Pan Am have hubs at Heathrow and JFK or something?)

Cheers!
 
OO-AOG
Posts: 1395
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:24 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Tue Nov 27, 2001 10:13 pm

They can fly domestic sectors but they cannot off/onload passengers while on the domestic leg, unless special authorization is granted by the country's CAA.
This is called cabotage.
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 12:34 am

In the United States only US vessels (this includes ships and airplanes) can carry cargo and passengers in Domestic routes. Its made to protect the US airlines so that in a war time sitution we have a large pilot pool to use. It works with the airlines, but unfornatuly it hasn't been to successful at sea, the merchant marines are damn near wiped out.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Jer32382
Posts: 297
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 10:35 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 12:37 am

Currently they can't do this. But with the debate for so called "openskies" heating up again, you might see it in the coming years. Foriegn carriers operating in the US and US carriers operating overseas.
 
ba777-236
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 11:35 pm

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 1:04 am

I think that Canada is going to have 'open skies' sometime within the next few years. Then allowing non-us airlines to do domestic routes.
I like British Airways! I'm not sure why, but I do! ;-)
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 4:17 am

I highly doubt that Open Skies will take over in the United States, look what happened to the merchant marines, when they allowed some opening up of the rules. We rarely see them, in fact during Desert Storm there was a little bit of a shipping shortage, and the ones that were hired from other countries didn't want to become involved for the risk of their lives. I personally would oppose an Open Skies Act, not that competition is bad, or that foriegn airlines are better or worse than US airlines, but due to the fact during a war time situatuion the US needs a stockpile of cargo pilots.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
The_Greq
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2000 3:39 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 4:21 am

Thanks to the Open Skies agreement, KLM is allowed to fly between JFK and Atlanta for example.
There are a lot of terms of conditions to operate this shedule.

 
Dalmd88
Posts: 2390
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 6:40 am

I don't think KLM operates JFK-ATL. I just went to their site. I couldn't buy a ticket to anywehere from ATL on a KLM aircraft. All they showed were codeshares on NW.

I don't think anyone currently has cabotage rights in the US. Even with Open Sky agreements cabatoge will be unheard of. What we will see is AF will be allowed to fly from anywhere in France to anywhere in the US. They may fly CDG-ATL-LAX, but no pax would be allowed to purchase tickets for just the ATL-LAX leg. The reverse would also be true. DL could not sell from CDG to another French city.

Cabatoge rights have always been nearly impossible to get. Pan Am only got them in Germany as a result of WWII.
 
DeltaRules
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Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

RE:Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 7:05 am

Gsoflyer- Pan Am's hub was at FRA, and Delta got it after Pan Am went under.

I wonder how British Airways, Air France, etc. would fare if they started a US division. Would they be big, or disappear after a while? Kinda interesting to think about.

DeltaRules
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
Gregg
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2000 12:49 pm

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 7:11 am

These rules is why some foreign airlines like to do a stop in the US, then one in Canada or Mexico, so they can cary pax.
 
mjzair
Posts: 354
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 1999 12:10 pm

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 7:28 am

If I am not mistaken, El Al heavily funds North American to act as a feeder from smaller markets to which it does not fly. I wonder if we will see more of this..
 
Guest

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 7:30 am

Ba777-236 wrote: "I think that Canada is going to have 'open skies' sometime within the next few years."

Transport Minister David Collenette is dragging his heels on this, saying that he has no intention of allowing cabotage.

However, opinion might be starting to sway. With Canada 3000 becoming the latest of numerous carriers to disappear on Collenette's watch, the minister's assertion that he will only entertain solutions that stay within the current no-cabotage, no-foreign-ownership rules is starting to sound weak.

Foreign ownership might come before cabotage. If Air Canada's woes put it in a 'fix it, sell it or kill it' scenario, allowing a foreign buyer to acquire the airline might be an easier sell politically than either renationalisation or bankruptcy.

 
rwy31r
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 5:44 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 7:57 am

as far as I know IB has a hub in Miami, but it only serves international routes to central and south america.

"Saudia Three Five hold short Three One Right"
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 8:51 am

If I'm not mistaken didn't Aerolineas Argentinas used to fly between Miami and JFK with smaller aircraft. I was quite sure some South American Airline set up a small hub in Miami a few years back.

What about Lan Chile? They seem to have a lot of flights into Miami too.

Also, I think for a while back in the 80's Sabena used to do that with 737-200s, because I saw a Sabena 737-200 at DTW. My guess is that it flew back and forth from DTW to ORD. I would also see 747s and DC-10s from Sabena at Detroit, but they would take off and head west.
 
Jj
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 9:06 am


Didn't Iberia use some 5 md 80's some years ago, to connect passengers to and from MIAMI.

Where this flights to the caribbean, or within the US?
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24521
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 9:17 am

Iberia still has a hub in Miami. It is four A319s. But all the flights are international. None are domestic. Air France also has three aircraft in Miami - one A320 and two Air France Regional/Air Caribes ERJ-145s. Again, they fly from MIA to outside the US. Aerolineas Argentinas did have a 727 based in MIA a while back. I don't know were they flew it, though. LanChile's MIA operations are very extensive - Santiago, Lima, Quito, Guayquil, Caracas, Bogota, Cancun, and Punta Cana. But again, all these are international flights. This is called Fifth Freedom. El Al's North American division, for the winter, will only be operating MIA-JFK, and I believe some ORD-JFK. In the past, they operated LAX-JFK, but LAX is being combined with YYZ using a 767. Word is that El Al will be taking both of North American's 737-800 and painting them in thier own scheme and using them in Israel (or maybe even in the US), and making MIA non-stop to TLV (or using a NAA 752 to JFK). I believe LY owns 49.9% of North American.
a.
 
tsully
Posts: 680
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RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 10:11 am

ANZ flies LAX-LHR-LAX, don't they? While that isn't a domestic route, I find it strange that they can operate in that market. That's like UA or AA flying (nonstop)LHR-MEL or something.

I can understand if ANZ were to use LAX as a fuel stop between AKL and LHR, but I believe ANZ sells tickets on the LAX-LHR-LAX route.

I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
 
Murf
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2000 11:47 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 10:29 am

Tsully,

I think you're right about Air NZ selling LAX-LHR-LAX tickets. I think they also sell tickets LAX-HNL-LAX.

Seams kinda strange that a foreign airline can fly US to Heathrow, but there are other US airlines wanting to fly to Heathrow and they can't.

United is allowed to sell tickets AKL-MEL-AKL, so that is probably why Air NZ can do that in US now that I think about it.


murf.
 
mfricke
Posts: 274
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2001 3:04 pm

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 10:38 am

Pan Am (and then United) had traffic rights from Heathrow on to five European cities (Munich, Berlin, Hamburg, Brussels, Amsterdam, Helsinki). This was established under Juan Trippe after WW II, when flights had to make many stops between New York and their final European destination. The Intra-European routes were maintained in the jet era, but note that none are domestic flights, all are fifth freedom international flights.

As for Heathrow, in 1980 Senator Ted Kennedy negotiated a new route for Pan Am, Boston to Heathrow. Under this agreement, the British limited Heathrow to ONLY Pan Am and TWA, and/or their corportae successors (United and American, for the LHR routes). That is why Air New Zealand can fly from LAX to LHR, but only two US carriers can.
ONT - Southern California's Ontario!
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 10:55 am

In addition to LAX-LHR, Air New Zealand also flies (flew?) LAX-FRA, and US passengers can buy a r/t on the route.

Australia, New Zealand, and the US have an interesting air relationship.

Air NZ flies LAX-SYD non-stop.
Qantas flies LAX-AKL non-stop.
United flies AKL-MEL non-stop (and I believe NZ and Aussie pax can buy r/trips from United on this route).

While none of this is cabotage, it is an example of a third nation's carrier flying paying pax between 2 other countries.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24521
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Wed Nov 28, 2001 11:18 am

Murf, LAX-HNL is a domestic route. AirNZ cannot sell tickets on this segment. What they can do is sell them to people who flew AKL-HNL. Here is an example. If someone in Tel Aviv wants to take a trip to Miami and NYC, they can fly El Al on TLV-JFK, then stay in NYC for three days, and then fly El Al on the JFK-MIA segment. Some intra-US routes:

South African Airways FLL-ATL
El Al/NAA MIA-JFK
Aerolineas Argentinas MIA-JFK (coming back soon)
ANA ORD-IAD (ends this week)
Korean Air DFW-ATL (suspended for now)
Qantas JFK-LAX (last flight is this week!)
EVA SEA-EWR
British Airways CLT-BWI

Not domestic, but Royal Air Maroc flies JFK-YMQ, Cathay Pacific flies YVR-JFK, and El Al flies LAX-YYZ.

In the past, Varig has flown ATL-IAD and MIA-MCO, Lufthansa has flown CLT-DFW, British Airways has flown IAD-MIA (Concorde), LanChile JFK-MIA, and Egypt Air JFK-LAX. The list goes on and on.

Also keep in mind US carriers also operate routes in between other countries with full passenger carrying rights. American Airlines flies Sao Paulo-Asuncion (extension of MIA-GRU) and Buenos Aires-Montevideo (extension of MIA-EZE). United flies Buenos Aires-Montevideo (extention of ORD-EZE) as well. Both United and Northwest have a large presence at Tokyo Narita flying many routes out of that airport. United also flew, just prior to 9/11, HKG-SIN. That route is suspened through Spring, for now.

As for Heathrow, from US carriers, only UA/AA and from UK only VS/BA, as everyone knows. This does not exclude carriers from other countries. Air India flies JFK-LHR, for example. Not every carrier can, though. SQ wants JFK-LHR, but has had no luck.

Carriers with 5th Freedom in the United States include Air France (from MIA), Iberia (MIA), Air India (JFK), AirNZ (LAX), Qantas (LAX), Martinair Holland (MIA), Surinam Airways (MIA), LanChile (MIA, LAX, JFK), Varig (LAX), Cathay Pacific (JFK), Singapore (ORD, LAX, SFO, EWR, JFK), Kuwait Airlines (ORD, JFK), Royal Jordanian (JFK), Ethiopian (JFK, IAD), South African (JFK), and a few others.

a.
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
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RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Thu Nov 29, 2001 2:19 am

Hello MAH4546,

To what destinations do the airlines you mentioned have a 5th freedom please?


Thank you,

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24521
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Thu Nov 29, 2001 2:43 am

Air France:
Miami to Port-Au-Prince

Iberia:
Miami to Cancun, Guatemala City, Panama City, San Pedro Sula, Managua, San Jose

Air India:
JFK to Heathrow

AirNZ (LAX):
Los Angeles to Sydney, Heathrow

Qantas:
Los Angeles to Auckland

Martinair Holland:
Miami to Aruba, San Jose
Orlando to Aruba

Surinam Airways:
Miami to Curacao

LanChile:
Miami to Bogota, Caracas, Qutio, Guayquil, Punta Cana, Lima, Cancun (soon)

New York to Lima, Guayquil

Los Angeles to Lima

Varig:
Los Angeles to Tokyo, Nagoya

Cathay Pacific:
JFK to Vancouver
Anchorage to Toronto (suspended for now)

Singapore:
San Francisco to Seoul, Hong Kong, Tokyo
Los Angeles to Taipei, Tokyo, (others?)
Newark to Amsterdam
JFK to Frankfurt
Chicago to Amsterdam

Kuwait Airlines:
Not sure

Royal Jordanian:
JFK to Amsterdam (I think)

Ethiopian:
Washington Dulles to Rome
JFK to ???

South African:
JFK to Lagos

Thai:
Los Angeles to Tokyo

MAS:
Los Angeles to ????
Newark to Dubai (suspended for now)

Aero Continente:
Miami to Guayquil

airALM:
Miami to Port-Au-Prince

JAL:
JFK to Sao Paulo

United:
Auckland to Melbourne
Tokyo to Singapore, Hong Kong, Seoul, Bangkok, more?
Buenos Aires to Montevideo

American:
Sao Paulo to Asuscion
Buenos Aires to Montevideo


a.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Thu Nov 29, 2001 5:11 am

MAH4546 --

Good list! I believe you left out a couple:

Air France LAX-PPT (Papeete, Tahiti)
Thai Airways LAX-KIX (Osaka)
Air New Zealand LAX-FRA (Frankfurt) -- they have the rights but they may have suspended service on this route.
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
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RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Thu Nov 29, 2001 5:15 am

Kuwait Airlines:
Not sure

JFK-LHR

Ethiopian:
Washington Dulles to Rome
JFK to ???

They serve EWR, not JFK. I don't know where their destination from EWR is, however.

South African:
JFK to Lagos

I thought it was Cape Verde.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
tsully
Posts: 680
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 5:02 pm

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Thu Nov 29, 2001 12:36 pm

Wow. Thanks, guys for all the information.

I could be wrong, but didn't UA fly something like Tokyo-Bankok or something?

I seem to think my dad once flew a trip like that out of Seattle.

tsully
I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
 
ryu2
Posts: 1545
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:18 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Thu Nov 29, 2001 12:44 pm

NZ cancelled LAX-FRA, they now codeshare with LH.

Yes, UA still flys Tokyo-Bangkok.
 
ryu2
Posts: 1545
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:18 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Thu Nov 29, 2001 12:50 pm

BTW, there is a funny true story involving the NZ FRA-LAX flight that took place in the eraly 80s. It seems that a student from Oakland, California was returning to OAK from FRA on NZ, connecting at LAX to some shuttle flight (PSA?).

The clueless student hears the announcement of NZ flight XXX, service to Los Angeles continuing on to Auckland (New Zealand). The NZ accent makes it sound like Oakland to that ignorant American. Apparently he failed to realize his mistake, slept during the layover at LAX (no one bothered to check to see if he was supposed to deplanE), and woke up over the Pacific halfway to Auckland.

Whoops!  Smile

 
ly772
Posts: 1269
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 9:33 pm

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Thu Nov 29, 2001 2:50 pm

LY flies TLV-YYZ-LAX...oh never mind, YYZ-LAX is operating by someone else...uh, NWA, maybe?
 
docpepz
Posts: 1706
Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 8:20 pm

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Thu Nov 29, 2001 3:21 pm

Talking about taking the wrong plane:

SIA operates SIN-NRT-LAX and LAX-NRT-SIN as SQ 12 and 11 respectively.

It so happens that SQ 11 and 12 arrive into NRT at around the same time, and they usually park next to each other.

In the early nineties, this non-English speaking passenger crossed the Pacific on SQ 11 from LAX bound for Singapore. At NRT, he took the transit card, and when it was time to depart, you guessed it, he boarded SQ12 bound for LAX instead.They only found out halfway over the Pacific.

He went all the way back to LAX and they had to put him on the next flight from LAX to SIN the next day! heh!
 
bakyunham
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2001 4:37 pm

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Thu Nov 29, 2001 4:13 pm

My last flight to Vancouver from SFO, was on Philippine Airlines, they have the rights to sell tickets on this route.
Mike from Stellenbosch, South Africa
 
Jer32382
Posts: 297
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 10:35 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Thu Nov 29, 2001 4:16 pm

It was probably a flight operated by a US carrier. Check out the ICAO five freedoms. I think the one you'd be most interested in in freedom number 5. I think that one is the most directly related to your case.
 
Guest

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Thu Nov 29, 2001 4:45 pm

Travelin Man

Are you sure that LAX-PPT is 5th freedom for AF, as I don't think French Polynesia negotiates its own air service agreements, as it is still a "part" of France (i.e. French territory).

Maybe AF Cabin Crew could enlighten us on this.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 4870
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Thu Nov 29, 2001 5:53 pm

Air NZ operate between
PPT-LAX
RAR-LAX
NAN-LAX
APW-LAX
All of these flights originate in AKL but i'm pretty sure NZ sell tickets on these flights. If they didn't it would not make sence to operate them.

Scott.  Smile
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 822
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Thu Nov 29, 2001 9:37 pm

How about this,
Are international carriers allowed to haul US Passengers to their hub city, and then to their destination back in the US?

For exmaple:
Say Air Canada: GSO->YYZ->CLT

I know that would not happen, but would that be allowed by law (I think that is Greenboro -> Toronto -> Charlotte)
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Fri Nov 30, 2001 1:50 am

If Tahiti is still a part of France, then I guess LAX-PPT on Air France would not be a case of "Fifth Freedom" rights.

I thought Tahiti was now its own country, however. Perhaps I am mistaken. Anyone know if Tahiti is independent from France?
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24521
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Fri Nov 30, 2001 2:35 am

LY772, YYZ-LAX will use LY 767s soon this winter.

Ryu2, funny. I remember an episode of Full House was the same exact story. They were all at the airport (SFO) and the two younger sisters get on a plane to say goodbye to someone. The plane's doors close before they can get off, and they are off to what they think is Oakland, California. But end up in Auckland.
a.
 
Jer32382
Posts: 297
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 10:35 am

RE: Non-US Airlines In The US

Fri Nov 30, 2001 2:39 am

I have a packet from my class about the 5 freedoms. I'll read through it and see if i can get yall some definate answers.