Kohflot
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MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 7:35 am

Move over PHX-DSM, there's a new champ in the long-distance RJ race in the US. Northwest announced today that Express I will be flying MSP-JAX starting in February. Best of luck to the 10 or so people that won't be on that aircraft each time in the summer because of limits...
Ask why..
 
Guest

RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 7:53 am

WOW! Now their stretching limits eh ?(I don't think so) Well for those who want to know, there is a meal service on CRJ flights longer than 2 hours with Express I. There is leather seating. It's the same as a DC9 minus F/C and leather seating in Y/C. As far as entertainment, read World Traveler, look outside, work, socialize, or sleep. They ought to use a CRJ from MSP-MOB or DTW-MOB, that would be excellent. We are in need of one stop service from MOB to many NW markets.
 
Guest

RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 7:54 am

And send some CRJ's from MSP/DTW to GPT also. This GPT-MEM route is good with DC-9's, plus alot of pax continue to other NW hubs.
 
jetBlue320
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 7:55 am

I'll Drink to that. >sips apple juice< Ah.. Now, Yes, We need a CRJ to MSP and DTW in MOB. MEM is such a small market, and it would certainly make some CASH
 
afitch7881
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 8:20 am

Air Canada already flys the CRJ JAX-YYZ which is quite long. Also, PVD-MSP is pretty long.
 
IAHERJ
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 8:33 am

They shouldn't have to restrict. In an ERJ, the longer the flight, the better off you are for weight. We are weight limited on landing weight. A long trip allows us to burn off enough fuel to be well under our max landing weight which is a lot more restrictive than the takeoff weight. I'm sure the CRJ is similar however not having ever been trained on it I might be talking out my you know what.
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
cv640
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 8:40 am

IAHERJ is right, the CRJ has problems, big time, on the short runs. Its max take off weight is 53000 pounds but landing is 47000. It only burns 2200 in cruise, so can cause big time headaches on the short runs. It has well over 2000 nm range(7 + hour endurance) with reserves, so shouldn't even be a slight problem
 
IAHERJ
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 8:48 am

I'm a big fan of Express I's CRJ's. I believe they are the finest in the U.S. I just wish Canadair would make larger windows so you can see out without needing to make a call to the chiropractor.
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
Cap'n Dan
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 8:51 am

ASA flies YOW-ATL in a CRJ as well. I don't care how much some people like RJs, 2+ hours seems like a hell of a long time for me...
 
Jason Seiple
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 9:07 am

I'd still rather go JAX-DTW-MSP-OMA for the frequent flyer miles.
 
Continental
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 9:15 am

I flew a NWA CRJ from MSP-PVD, 2 hours 30 minutes!

Continental
 
cv640
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Iaherj

Wed Nov 28, 2001 9:45 am

Very true about the windows, the ERJ definitely has a huge advantage there. Yeah, they do seem to love the jets here, nice jet bridegs and all but at the expense of the Saabs, oh well. Time to be Mr jet now anyways. Grabbed a ride with CoEx today out of ISP and then CLE to MEM. Just wanted to pass along a thanks to you guys, as usual a great job. Hope to hear you growing and getting your guys off of furlough soon too. Fly safe.
 
JonnyGT
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 9:49 am

Starting about a month ago, DSM is now a full America West stop with one daily 733, I believe. It's quite nice because I took the long distance DSM-PHX route about a month ago, and while it was enjoyable, 3 hrs on a CRJ was REALLY pushing it!  Smile
 
BA
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 10:06 am

Comair used to fly CRJs on CVG-COS before Delta Air Lines took over the route with 727s.

Regards.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Guest

RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 11:54 am

Express Also used to fly MEM-MTY which was about 2 hours and 30 minutes. A lot of people complain about flights over 2 hours in RJ's, but in a lot of markets in would be a nonstop RJ or a connection or 2.
 
Kohflot
Topic Author
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 11:57 am

IAHERJ, CV640:

I'm not so concerned about the range of the plane being a problem with a full load. I don't doubt that it could make it with 50 folks on a good day. The problem comes in the summertime, when JAX and every airport within 250 miles of JAX has the good ole tempo of VRB25G45KT 1/2SM TSRA+ for the whole afternoon. Throw on a good alternate and some contingency fuel and you'll definitely be taking limits.. and a lot of them. The other problem is routing around enroute weather. If a line of t-storms stretches from ORD to MOB and you need to route around it, there's no way you're taking 50 people.
Ask why..
 
IAHERJ
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 12:02 pm

Why not, what in the hell do you know about the CRJ or ERJ. We just explained that you can top off the tanks, load up with 50 people and bags, and make the trip. Now if the weather requires more than full tanks, then nobody goes. Is that hard to figure out. A fuel stop would be needed. It has nothing to do with the plane being a 50 passanger regional jet or a 737 that has a 2,000 NM range. If the weather is so bad that it is going to take more fuel than the plane can hold, no one is going nonstop.
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
IAHERJ
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RE: Iaherj

Wed Nov 28, 2001 12:08 pm

Thanks for the kind words. My wife and I always try to use you guys from MEM to MGM to visit her family. The alternatives from ATL are a complete joke. Schedule 8 flights a day and actually get 6 off the ground. As far as getting our guys off of furlough, it really depends on big CAL. We are getting a new jet every Friday starting Jan 1. We are getting 5 new jets before Christmas. We are growing, we are just growing with their furloughed pilots bumping our guys to the street. I think it will turnouround in the next 9 months. The big Cal guys are great and I'm damn glad to have them back with us and welcome the guys that never flew at Express before as well. I and they would just like to see them back on the boeings.

I think you guys and us are the only regional jet operators that use jet bridges to the extent that we use them. Have fun on the CRJ.
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
TWA902fly
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 12:14 pm

yeah PHX DSM is now a 737-300.

and so that makes the second longest, after MSP JAX CRJ route ASA's Atlanta to Monterey Mexico. It is 1089 miles, while MSP JAX is 1174 miles

twa902 chicago
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
CVG777
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 12:37 pm

Doesn't America West have a CRJ service between PHX and MEX. How long is that flight?
 
Kohflot
Topic Author
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 12:41 pm

**Why not, what in the hell do you know about the CRJ or ERJ. We just explained that you can top off the tanks, load up with 50 people and bags, and make the trip.**

*sigh*

I know a thing or two about the CRJ, and one of the things I do know is that you can't "top off the tanks, load up with 50 people and bags, and make the trip."

Let's do the math:

Max fuel load: 14,500 lbs.
50 average pax: 8500 lbs.
50 average bags: 1250 lbs.
BOW of your average CRJ: ~31,000 lbs.

That's 55,250 lbs. and that's not even taking max cargo.
Max takeoff is 51,000 or 53,000 depending on the model.. I'm not sure which ones Express I has. And that's just structural.

It's generally not good to assume the people you're talking to don't know what they're talking about.....
Ask why..
 
azjubilee
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 1:05 pm

Something to think about... NW uses Mesaba and Express as route provers. If this route does well, and I'm sure it will, you bet your nickets and dimes that NW mainline will take this over.

Here are some examples of this in the past:

DTW-PWM, MSP-Regina, MEM-ATL, MEM-ICT, MEM-RDU, MEM-DFW. These were all at one time flown and operated by MEsaba... only to be taken over by NW using DC9s. I don't know about some Express cities, because they're new to the jet. We'll see what happens... too bad this couldn't have been in the avro. You'd be comfy there... I guess the range is an issue.

AZJ
 
cv640
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 1:21 pm

Actually there will be no restrictions on the CRJ to JAX. The aircraft weights on average 30,000 empty, 50 people as you say above is 8500, plus say 2000 pounds in baggage. Now lets say first hour fuel burn is 3200 pounds(do to climb), second hour is 2400(still heavy), third hour is 2200, fourth hour in case of problems with winds is 2200, fifth hour is 2200(at this point you'd be a little less with the descent but lets play conservative). My total with all this is 52,700 ramp weight. The max ramp weight of the CRJ 200LR is 53,250 pounds. So we have 550 pounds to play with even though we are taking almost a 2 hour reserve, or enough to get just outside of JAX and divert to MEM using conservative numbers. Plus if they have extremely high demand and always selling out they'll just replace it with a -9, but guess what, that has less range then the CRJ. I'm not too worried about the range on that trip, guess its A319 time.

IAHERJ, yeah the jetbridges help a ton, make people feel like they are getting on a main line flight, looks better then a mad dash in the pouring rain. Glad we can help, you have been great when ever I've needed the ride, fly safe
 
Kohflot
Topic Author
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 1:30 pm

Hmm..

We'll use your numbers..

30,000 BOW
8,500 Pax
2,000 Bags
7,800 Burn (3 hours as you stated above)
2,000 legal contingency (don't leave home without it!)
2,000 alternate fuel to somewhere other than SAV
1,000 contingency (and that ain't much)
500 taxi fuel:

53,800.

The look on the faces of the 5-10 people you leave behind in MSP: Priceless.
Ask why..
 
Kohflot
Topic Author
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 1:32 pm

Silly me, I meant legal reserve.. not legal contigency.
Ask why..
 
Guest

RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 2:00 pm

Its interesting to note NW's expansion using CRJ's by adding new routes as opposed to replacing the Saab's. They seem more focused on route building with their CRJ's compared to the other majors. Then again, they have one of the youngest turboprop fleets too, with many of the Saab's being delivered in the late 90's.
 
azjubilee
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Northwest CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 2:14 pm

I seriously doubt there will be meal service on this flight NorthwestCRJ. NW mainline doesn't even serve meals on flights shorter than 3 hours, no chance in you know where, a meal will be on this flight. MSP-PVD apparantly doesn't get a meal either.

Gone are all of our meal flights on the avro too... except of course for HPN. I used to love that FC breakfast in the morning and that good cheesecake!


AZJ
 
IAHERJ
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 2:14 pm

Kohflot,

It would only be priceless if you were left standing at the gate. The fact is the CRJ can do the trip and not leave people behind. I'll give you the benefit if the weather is horrible and the alternate is 200 miles away, however that is only the case once every 2 years. The East Coast has plenty of viable alternates for a CRJ within minutes (500lbs of fuel) of JAX. Go ahead and bash the CRJ or ERJ or any regional jet. I'm not sure why you are so insistant apon doing so but everyon's got a beef with something these days. Numbers are fun to play with but dispatchers and pilots work them differently every day and get the job done and I'm sure NWA will be successful using the CRJ on this route.
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
cv640
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 2:17 pm

Don't know where you got your numbers from, but lets do some real math. Since you want to be exact, block to block is 3 hours and 5 minutes. So we'll assume the rare situation of a full load with baggage, so thats 50 people, 8500 pounds and 2000 pounds in the cargo compartment. plus aircraft, your up to 41000 for sake of argument, a little extra a heavy plane today. Now we'll say 500 pound taxi, we use less in our taxi's, but we will assume a long delay today and they planned on it.

Now back to my original sttement of a 3 hour and 5 minute block, we will assume that out of that, since we had the long taxi that the actual flight time is 2 hours and 40 minutes, so here goes. Hour 1 3200 pounds, hour 2 is 2400 pounds, the extra 40 minutes at 2200 pph equals 1475. My total for so far in weight is 48,575.

OK, but you are right we are doing this legal, so a 45 minute reserve at 2500 pounds per hour is 1900, we will round up to 2000 to be safe. No we are up to 50,075. Ok, ok, an alertante would normal be about 20-30 minutes away, but again for safety sake we will say its 45 minutes plus an approach. Ok so we will add 2500 to the total. The full value is 53,075.very tight yes, but all at the worse case senerio. Most thunderstorms in the southeast are air mass, meaning very strong but very local, pouring rain in 1 area and clear 5 miles away. At least that has been my experience in the aviation world flying down here for 6 years and living for 10.

Again though we went safe and more then legal, a few addies here and there. Our previous longest run was MEM to MTY, sorry no idea on the PVD runs but they take full passengers all the time, plus jump setares on occasion. Back to the MTY run though, the fuel loads for that run were in the 9000 pound range, we have 12,575 above, a little over kill for sure, I know this run will rarely if ever take that load.

I doubt it'll have trouble making it, yes is it a stretch with full passengers and when the weather is lousy, can it do it, yes. They will probably announce that they are overweight and ask for volunteers if the above situation was a requirement, I've seenthem do that though when we were over a thousand pounds below T/O weight in a Saab. All the above fuel loads and flows were very conservative rough and a little too much compared to reality. Time will tell who is right though. I do know of no airplane being built today that can go full fuel and full seats though
 
IAHERJ
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 2:28 pm

Maybe the ERJ is different. We go 11,200 (full fuel without overwing fueling the last few hundred) in a LRJ all the time with 50 passangers and if the bags are heavy, we make some half weights. Nobody gets left behind. One flight attendant in the extra JS, and one pilot in the pilot JS and away we go. BHM to EWR, MKE to IAH, IAH to SAV,DFW to CLE. We regularly go full out of Mazatlan to IAH with lots of fuel and still make the drift down requirements to cross the mountains in Mexico. An ER (we only have about 20) is a different story on a short run if we need lots of fuel for weather. We either leave behind some passangers, or fly really low and extend the flaps early to burn off some weight if the weather facilitates a direct arrival.
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
azjubilee
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Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 2:41 pm

We can fill the avro with 69 seats and 20,046lbs of fuel and make it. IF we have to return though, we're screwed. No dumping. Remedy? airbrake, gear, flaps and fly at 210kts very low. She'll guzzle like a DC10 doin' the same.

I still maintain that we'll see this become a DC9 or a 319 when the market is built.


AZJ
 
IAHERJ
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Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:52 am

RE: Northwest CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 2:45 pm

Love that Mesaba Avro. Great airline and you guys used to treat me great as well when I commuted from Cleveland. Great alternative to riding the middle seat 3 hours direct, or getting bumped; was the avro to DTW, then a 737-700 first class seat to IAH. Sorry about the breakfast.
IAHERJ
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
cv640
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 2:52 pm

Yes, those were conservative numbers, but just wanted to show it can do it, probably less flying time too, especially if we burned 500 pounds on taxi, thats quite a bit at idle on the CRJ, especially since we normally do single engine taxi's on it, when we have long delays. That was assuming no kids, they are 80 pounds instead of 170, so a few would have given us a few more pounds to play with. We can play with the numbers a little and see if they work, but with the aboce load we wouldn't. 30 minute alternate from JAX goes into South Carolina, or central FL, plus most of Atlanta, so quite a range to find a good place to land.

Azjubilee, very true about the Avro, forgot that, but was thinking of 85 seats, whoops. Well, I'm off. Fly safe everyone
 
Kohflot
Topic Author
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 3:22 pm

You guys are failing to see my original point..

Since you guys seem to be so familiar with the deep South, you already know this, but in the summertime all it takes is a TEMPO with low vis and TSRA to wipe out hundreds of miles of good alternates. Sure you can find an airport within 20-30 minutes to LAND at, but it'll still be illegal to PLAN with it because it'll have the same bad forecast that JAX has. You may find the one podunk place within 100 miles that doesn't have an illegal forecast, but then you'll find yourself in a world of hurt when it amends. So realistically, on a lot of summer days, there will be an alternate 200+ miles away.

CV640, the numbers you reran left out contingency fuel.. and I'm not sure what SOP is at your airline, but I'll never let my guys and gals fly around thunderstorms without fuel to deviate and hold with. That's even an FAR.. 121.647(d).

And my original post also brought up the prospect of a massive reroute (which happens a lot more than every 2 years, more like every week or so in the late spring and summer). The fuel loads we came up with go right out the window when you're planning KMSP to KJAX via LIT for wx avoidance.

This all goes back to my original point. On a typical day in the summer, you're going to kick a few people off. On a bad wx day in the summer, you're going to leave a lot more than that behind.

And IAHERJ.. I am a dispatcher, and I dispatch CRJs. If you read carefully, I'm not out to bash the plane, merely pointing out its limitations.. It's a great aircraft, but it's not meant to fly from MSP to JAX or SLC to AUS.
Ask why..
 
IAHERJ
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Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:52 am

RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 3:36 pm

Okay, so you're a dispatcher. A good captain knows how to work the numbers and get all the passangers on board despite the conservative release numbers the dispatcher has given. I routinely call up the dispatcher on my release from time to time and get the hold fuel dropped a bit here or there for legality purposes but I never leave fuel behind. The paperwork can say one thing, but the aircraft can do another. I'm sure you know this goes on out there on the line, where the responsibility ultimately lies.
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
Kohflot
Topic Author
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RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 3:59 pm

**where the responsibility ultimately lies**

Always got to get that jab in there don't ya? Joint responsibility my friend.. it's your aircraft, it's our flight.

And as far as taking less fuel and more people, I work by the old saying "Better to get 46 people to the destination than 50 people to the alternate.."



Ask why..
 
IAHERJ
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:52 am

RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 4:00 pm

Read the post! I said I would show less fuel, but take what I want. Always have. Gets everyone involved to the destination
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3376
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

Iaherj

Wed Nov 28, 2001 4:04 pm

Glad to have you along! Hope to see you again soon on another Northwest Airlink flight, operated by Mesaba Airlines. (gosh, I feel like I'm making my we're getting ready to land flight attendants please prepare for arrival announcement.)


AZJ
 
IAHERJ
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:52 am

RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 4:08 pm

And I'm not talking about taking off grossly overweight either. I'm just saying that the flight will depart with the fuel that you and I agree puts the aircraft at the max gross takeoff weight or whatever is limiting. The fuel that will actually be on the plane will probably be a bit more for my family. I just don't like to leave passangers behind. The way we do weight and ballances is a joke anyway. The aircraft can take a lot more than we ever put in it and fly fine with an engine failure at V1. If the crew handles the situation promptly.

Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
IAHERJ
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:52 am

RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 4:12 pm

Hey Azjubilee,

You guys still take those things into Aspen for ski season? That must be a lot of fun. How are the loads? My wife's family has a home in Steamboat Springs and Continental runs a 737 into Hayden CO. for the ski season and that usually works out nicely however I've always wanted to ski Aspen.
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
cv640
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2000 8:10 pm

RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Wed Nov 28, 2001 11:03 pm

Well, I've been flying down here for a number of years, the only time I saw alterantes for "hundreds of miles" wiped out was do to fog in February. At that time we had to use MEM as our alternate for TLH, yes we did have to kick people off, but so were DC-9s flying down in the Southeast, that much distance was requiring everyone to do so, but that has been it so far.

Impossible to happen, no, probably going to happen, doubtful. Otherwise the Saab would be unusable down here, as a 200 mile alternate would require an hour diverson. Plus all my flights down from Chicago to Florida, in July and August, with a Baron would have been impossible too, and that has half the range of the CRJ. Most of my alternates down here have been around 20 or so minutes in a Saab, at that point the CRJ and Saab would take about the same time to fly, so close.

As for contigency fuel, we don't have to carry it, we do sometimes, if we think it'll require large deviations from our destitantion, usually when we have to skirt around storms in the Saab we do it towards our destination, but OK lets go back to the original scenerio I gave. I had 2500 pounds down fro an alternate, thats about an 1 hour and 10 minutes, actually a little bit more, if you have an alternate say 200 miles away you say 300 knots to be very conservative, that is just under 40 minutes of flight time. That leaves about 30 minutes of conigency.

Are there situations that would require bumping people, the answer is yes of course. If a tropical storm was sitting there then people would have to go, major alternate requirement there. A large front, had one once where I had to go from memphis to west of Mobile before swinging east to go to my favorite TLH again. All my major weather stories involve TLH, don't know why, HA.

I'm talking about the norm though, with that case the plane will do it fine. Besides, if it is running 100% loads, we won't have it very long. Probably go to a A319 then, as the DC-9 has less range and if you list an alternate it would almost always be leaving people behind. One of the reasons a lot of NWA pilots are angry at us is do to the range of the CRJ,since longer then a -9 they want to know what's regional about it, but another argument.

I've been bumped off of A320s that were no where near there full, just do to the high fuel loads they had to take restrictions. As was stated the Avro with Mesba can, as it already has 16 people bumped.

As IAHERJ has also stated we do everything we can to get as many people on board. As a dispatcher I'm sure you've seen or haerd of this, especially if you do so for a commuter. No one likes to leave anyone behind if there is a way around it.

Also with 50 people, I have always seen children. 2000 pounds is a heavy baggage load. Although, we did have 3100 pounds once with only 35 or so people, missionary group coming back from 2 months in Asia. Now that was fun, HA. That also makes me wonder about the 3500 pound limit, as with the 3100 pounds it was so tight they could barely close the door, and we took as many light bags as possible in the overheads.

Is this pushing the max range of a CRJ, with high loads the answer is an obvious yes. Will it cause major headaches or problems, I don't forsee it. A number said we would with our other long range flights, they never were. Again we will see, if they are always bumping people, I will be wrong and you will be right, but in that case the route must be doing great and its just a matter of time before big NWA takes over it.
 
afitch7881
Posts: 722
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2000 2:04 am

RE: MSP-JAX In A CRJ

Thu Nov 29, 2001 4:20 pm

In PHX, America West CRJ's are always at a gate, I have yet to see one not deplane or enplane a passenger without one.


Eric

P.S.

Isnt the new midfield terminal going to have airbridges for the saabs?

Eric

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