captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Fri Nov 30, 2001 2:51 am

I have read elsewhere that Air 2000, which is owned by the same UK company which owns Signature Vacations, is applying for fifth freedom rights to serve Caribbean destinations from Canada on behalf of Signature Vacations, for the winter season! I want to pass this around, not knowing really if it is true, but to spread the word and get people to make some noise, given that there is lots of capacity in Canada to provide these services. There is no reason with the airlines that currently exist to give this to overseas airlines with overseas crews.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
ILS
Posts: 2291
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 2:34 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Fri Nov 30, 2001 2:56 am

I have heard this as well. They are going to fly out of YYC (Calgary) I think.
 
User avatar
Crosswind
Posts: 2536
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:34 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Fri Nov 30, 2001 3:05 am

This is nothing new,
From 1988 to 1996 every winter between 2 and 4 Air 2000 757s were based in Canada for the Winter season operating on behalf of Canada 3000, using Canada 3000's route authorities but using British crews and aircraf, although the aircraft were re-registered. For the Winter 1997 season the arrangement was switched to Royal Airlines.

You may also be interested to know that for several Summer seasons Air 2000 aircraft were crewed by Canada 3000/Royal Airlines pilots, on flights from the UK.

Tour Operators are vulnerable if they don't have their own supply of airline seats, as has just been demonstrated. Signature placed most of their flying programme with Royal/Canada 3000, those airlines first merged and then went out of business, leaving Signature with some major problems of getting their clients to their destinations.

This type of seasonal arrangement is followed by many other companies, with British crews and aircraft operating in Canada including;
Monarch/SkyService A320
Airtours/SkyService A320 A330
JMC Airlines/Canada 3000 B757
And many more in previous years including Nationair, Odyssey, Air UK Leisure, Ambassador and Caledonian.

I said this would happen a week ago;
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/650143/6/

But I don't think it's anything to get excited about.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Fri Nov 30, 2001 3:10 am

I was always under the impression that when these aircraft were here for the winter season from the UK, that they were being operated by Canadian crews, so that doesn't bother me one bit. There is of course the argument that British crews work here for the winter season, but the same opportunity would be extended to Canadian crews in the summer time. All is well, however we are currently in a situation where way too many Canadian flight crews are out of work, and willing to work, so the government has to be very careful before allowing foreign workers to come into Canada and do the work that perfectly capable and out of work Canadian workers can also accomplish.

Guess we'll have to wait and see.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
polaris
Posts: 1128
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2000 7:03 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Fri Nov 30, 2001 5:18 am

Fifth freedom rights are only available for scheduled services not charter services.

Tour operators charter aircraft from carriers with appropriate licences and insurance. Crosswind provided perfect examples of this situation.

 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Fri Nov 30, 2001 5:57 am

I do realize that it is regularly done, and it has been done, and it is effective. But the difference here is that a major Canadian carrier just went under (Canada 3000), and there does exist lots of capacity or the capability to give that capacity with existing carriers, namely SkyService, Air Transat, and to a degree, Westjet, but that last one is unlikely. When for instance Air 2000 was allowed into Canada, it was operating under Royal Airlines, or whatever the case may be. I know of a pilot who was based in the UK this summer, he is a SkyService A320 pilot, and was flying for Airtours. So I do realize that this sort of thing happens.

My point to all this is, and please forgive my ignorance ... in the past, it has been done to add capacity to existing airlines. In this instance, they are applying for Air 2000 to be able to operate their aircraft, with their pilots and f/a's on behalf of a UK charter company which does business in Canada. With other airlines in Canada with the ability to provide these services, and so many unemployed pilots, f/a's and other industry workers, it is catastrophic to even contemplate bringing in a foreign source to do these services.

Again ... I may be wrong in my understanding of something, but that's how I see it.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
polaris
Posts: 1128
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2000 7:03 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Fri Nov 30, 2001 2:13 pm

Basically, you're saying keep the jobs/positions in Canada.

It will be interesting to see what Signature Vacations does with its business.
 
rootsgirl
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Fri Nov 30, 2001 3:35 pm

A lot of airlines do aircraft exchanges on a seasonal basis and what is termed as "wet leases", These are all governed by the transport authorities in the particular country where the aircraft operate out of.

Skyservice does this with Airtours, we send some of our A320s and front end only to Airtours in the summer. Also we fly out of Amsterdam, , Germany, Zurich, and London operating on behalf of Pegasus to Turkey. We are not permitted to send back end crew, only front end.

Given the fact that Canada 3000 was associated with Air 2000, they may have had a similar agreement.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Sat Dec 01, 2001 11:01 am

The tour operator has the right to find the cheapest lift...if its foreign aircraft/crew...so be it...this is in the interests of the Canadian consumer.

For that matter, C3/TS have also operated foreign charter series themselves....the US State Dept has wet-leased a TS L15 several times for press accompaniment of AF1. This winter, TS will operate a charter series from SEA to CUN. Skyservice will operate BOS-CUN service and C3 has operated numerous US-origin series in the past. Hence, if you want to 'ban' foreign carriers from operating Canadian-origin charter series, it could end up costing, not saving, Canadian jobs.

Let the market place rule.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Cpt Underpants
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat May 05, 2001 10:37 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Sat Dec 01, 2001 11:31 am

Yes, all of the Canadian charter companies have operated 5th freedom work, but not in places where several thousand airline employees have just lost their jobs! Air Transat & Skyservice have the capability to provide seats to Signature, and they should not be allowed to go outside the country to get it!

Yyz717, your comment about "cheapest lift", shows that you obviously don't know much about the cost of operation in Europe. Their costs are much higher than those here in Canada, and the only reason Air 2000 has applied for the 5th freedom in Canada is because they own Signature, and they are struggling on their home turf. This work would simply be a way to lessen some of the financial pain of the downturn they are feeling in the U.K.

Until every ex C3 employee and every laid off employee from the other airlines in Canada are back at work, there should not be one foreign based aircraft over here flying Canadian passengers for a Canadian tour operator!

At least, that's how I see it. I'm writing to David Collenette on this one!
 
yhu
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Sat Dec 01, 2001 11:38 am

"Until every ex C3 employee and every laid off employee from the other airlines in Canada are back at work, there should not be one foreign based aircraft over here flying Canadian passengers for a Canadian tour operator!"

That's a bit of a wild statement! So, Royal Air Maroc's FFR's between YUL and JFK should be taken from them? Also, I believe Egypt Air will soon have the same rights between YUL and JFK. It would be sad to see Signature have to let people go because there is not a Canadian carrier who can take over all of their routes.

Dave
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Sat Dec 01, 2001 11:46 am

YHU, I don;t know for sure, but I am pretty sure that RAM and Egyptair will not be taking people from YUL to JFK, I don't think you can buy a ticket from YUL to JFT on RAM or Egyptair.

Furthermore unless I missed something, I thought most of us are trying to point out that there is enough CANADIAN Capacity to serve signature's needs...ROYAL only had 17 planes when C3 took over the signature contract, I'm sure there are enough planes out there between transat and SSV to fill the Gap...TS should have at least half that number of L1011's parked around the country.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Cpt Underpants
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat May 05, 2001 10:37 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Sat Dec 01, 2001 12:05 pm

Slawko is correct, RAM and Egyptair may fly from YUL to JFK, but the passengers they are picking up are not destined for the USA. That would be illegal. It's no different than Olympic flying ATH to YMX and then on to YYZ. They can't take any passengers on from YMX to YYZ, or in the reverse on the return trip.

There is nothing wrong with protecting Canadian jobs first, especially when Canadian passengers are involved. Those that would compare what SSV and C3 have done in the U.K. with what Air 2000 is proposing, are forgetting one simple fact. SSV and C3 went to add extra seats for an existing airline that needed the capacity. Air 2000 is proposing to be a defacto Canadian carrier for the winter, which is completely unacceptable, IMHO.
 
Guest

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Sat Dec 01, 2001 12:39 pm

The whole protectionist atmosphere in which the airlines operate -- for every country a flag carrier regardless of how feeble, no foreign ownership, no foreign crews, stinginess in granting fifth-freedom rights (and even greater stinginess above that) -- is one of the things that has made the industry the wreck it is today.

The best bet for stability in the industry is to allow the surviving carriers to reorganize into a handful of multinational brand names, so that a plane that says Air 2000 or Lufthansa on the side will be no more 'foreign' to Canadians than a car that says Volkswagen or Toyota on it.

If Air 2000 won't be allowed in without jumping the full set of hurdles, then Collenette could at least use Air 2000's access as a bargaining chip toward treaties allowing not just greater freedom in basing aircraft and crews in third countries, but also toward dismantling the rest of the protectionism measures noted above, perhaps starting first with the charters, then the scheduled carriers.

 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Sat Dec 01, 2001 1:53 pm

"no foreign ownership, no foreign crews"
- There is foreign ownership allowed in the industry, but rightly so, it is capped to a maximum. I don't disagree with the possibility of raising that limit, but allowing a foreign company to just set up shop without restrictions would mean to say goodbye to the Canadian airline industry. Much more powerful foreign airlines would just take over in Canada and use their financial muscles to eliminate what currently exists in Canada.


"The best bet for stability in the industry is to allow the surviving carriers to reorganize into a handful of multinational brand names, so that a plane that says Air 2000 or Lufthansa on the side will be no more 'foreign' to Canadians than a car that says Volkswagen or Toyota on it."
- Your argument has some serious flaws. You want airlines such as Air 2000 and Lufthansa to be able to just operate in Canada exactly the same as if they were in their respective countries, irrespective of whatever consequences they might have on Canada's airlines. You have to remember something ... Toyota, a Japanese automobile manufacturer, does indeed build automobiles in Ontario, sells automobiles across Canada, etc etc. There is a huge difference, because the R&D necessary for a quality automobile to be built is much different than for an airline to operate. Canada does not have the infrastructure to be self sufficient in the automobile industry, building and selling its own cars nationwide! But Canada is more than capable of producing quality airlines which can compete properly in this country.

Now, what you mention that should happen, in effect already does, however, with world airlines joining alliances, in which they cooperate, and together offer their respective customers a much wider route network. As such, Lufthansa can really sell a ticket from Frankfurt to Thunder Bay for instance, thanks to their alliance with Air Canada in Star Alliance. That is something that I believe is helpful and needs to be even further explored in order for companies to expand internationally. There is no reason why a smaller company such as SkyService can't get into an alliance with other airlines in order to properly compete as well.

Ok, I'm blabbing way too long now, but that is my opinion.

"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
yhu
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Sun Dec 02, 2001 12:31 am

I beg to differ. YES you could, at least up until recently by a RAM ticket to fly YUL JFK. I just spoke to someone who inquired about the flight a while back, The only reason he didn't take it was the price was higher than other carriers and it was not on the dates he wanted. So YES, RAM may still have FFR's between YUL and JFK. Why on earth would that be elegal? I mean, it's the whole reason for Fifth Freedom Rights!

Dave
 
Guest

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Sun Dec 02, 2001 1:36 am

Captaingomes wrote: "allowing a foreign company to just set up shop without restrictions would mean to say goodbye to the Canadian airline industry"

Why? Just because the ownership rests in another country doesn't mean that everything else goes to that country with it. Perhaps some things would be combined for greater efficiency, but a foreign-owned airline here in Canada would still have large numbers of Canadian-based employees.

Who's to say that foreign ownership restrictions haven't already blocked an investor who might have otherwise been interested in doing something productive with a few of Canada 3000's grounded assets and employees, but quietly decided not to bother because of Collenette's repeated indications that foreign investors can expect a frosty reception unless they're comfortable with the status quo? Never trying something different means never benefitting from the opportunities that might have been missed as a result.

"But Canada is more than capable of producing quality airlines which can compete properly in this country."

Producing and running a successful airline requires a lot of financing and as much flexibility as possible in how that airline is operated. The status quo acts as a hindrance to that: airlines are saddled with rules that only allow them to go out of the country to get financing and investment to the extent that they don't end up breaking the foreign investment limits (a consideration that pushed Canadian to secretly give AMR super-veto rights in exchange for its much-needed investment).

They are further slapped with additional rules that prevent them from making the most productive use of their assets without wading through the red tape: cabotage and fifth-freedom restrictions mean that a Canadian charter operator can't just stop off in, say, Gary/Chicago to freely pick up and drop off passengers on its way to points further south merely because it might be profitable to do so. If they want to do it, there's a rigid, frustrating, byzantine process they must go through first.

Protectionism and government-imposed rigidities have the same effect on the airline industry as they do on any other: they inadvertently restrict the productivity and operational flexibility of the companies in the industry, and that shows up on the industry's bottom line as weak performance. The key to restoring the health of this sickly industry is to let it do what it needs to do to operate economically, and that means putting an end to the era of protected markets and politically imposed rigidities that have served the industry so badly.

 
polaris
Posts: 1128
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2000 7:03 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Wed Dec 12, 2001 8:20 am

On December 6th, Air 2000 received the rights to have its aircraft chartered from Canada to international destinations.

These rights are for Advance Booking Charters, Inclusive Tour Charters, and Common Purpose Charters.
 
User avatar
Crosswind
Posts: 2536
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:34 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Wed Dec 12, 2001 9:16 am

Yes,
It appears there will be 2 757s to be based in Canada this winter, operating out of Toronto and Winnipeg. Although quite a lot of fuss about this, but in reality it's only a repeat of what happened previously except that Air 2000 are now using their own route authorities as opposed to those of Canada 3000/Royal.

According to what was written on PPRuNE, neither Air Transat or SkyService opposed the granting of fith freedom rights to Air 2000 because they want a long term contract from Signature Vacations, and wouldn't help themselves by upsetting their sister airline.

So this will be a familiar sight for a couple of months;

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Peter Unmuth - Vienna Aviation Photography


Regards
CROSSWIND
 
ywg777
Posts: 1240
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 1999 9:40 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Wed Dec 12, 2001 11:33 am

Crosswind,
Can you give me the scoop about this air 200 757 being based in Winnipeg. I need some info. I didn't even know we were getting air 2000 to YWG. I need some details.
thanks
YWG777
 
fallingeese
Posts: 2031
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:33 pm

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Wed Dec 12, 2001 12:39 pm

Has there been an inital date set for these aircraft to start operations?

I still don't see the reason for another eastern based charter, when I see that there is an unserved niche in Western Canada for a charter carrier.

Fly Westjet!
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
YWG
Posts: 1055
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2001 11:29 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Wed Dec 12, 2001 12:44 pm

Not going to happen. Air Transat and Skyservice will take over all the southern routes C3 gave up.
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
lasbagman
Posts: 343
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 8:55 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Wed Dec 12, 2001 12:46 pm

Skyservice will be flying for Signature, Air Transat Holidays and Conquest to LAS.
They will have 10 flights a week to the silver state
from YYZ/YYC/YVR

Air Transat will be pulling out from LAS , the last flight is 16 Dec. This ends 12 years of service.
 
ywg777
Posts: 1240
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 1999 9:40 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Wed Dec 12, 2001 12:52 pm

YWG, It will give TS, SSV a compition instead of those 2 competing with 1 another. you have to get your facts streight. air 2000 will be in Canada as they have rights. You need to read everything.
YWG777
I am hoping to see this 757
YWG777
 
YWG
Posts: 1055
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2001 11:29 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Wed Dec 12, 2001 12:58 pm

Shawn (YWG777) The Canadian gov will let their own airlines succeed before ahnding the buisness off to some Eurpoean airline. It's common sense. If air canada doesn't pick the routes down south up. TS or SSV will! :P
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

YWG

Wed Dec 12, 2001 1:08 pm

I guess you haven't been following this thread since the beginning.

The brilliant Canadian government has approved this happening already. As a result of this happening, at a time when so many Canadian employees are out of work, and with possibilities of Canadian carriers picking up the business, there is a petition going on right now to get rid of Collenette as the Minister of Transport, as he has proven all too often a lack of understanding of this industry.

The link to the petition is the following

http://www.petitiononline.com/ptjvdc/petition.html

So, YWG, the good news is that you'll see something different in the skies, but at a great cost, I'm afraid.



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
ywg777
Posts: 1240
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 1999 9:40 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Wed Dec 12, 2001 2:52 pm

when is the SSV annoucement taking place about expansion?
YWG777
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Wed Dec 12, 2001 3:23 pm

the SSV expansion is apparantly going to be announced in the next couple days. I can't wait to see what they have planned.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
rootsgirl
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Wed Dec 12, 2001 3:47 pm

I agree, give Canadian carriers the business! I was under the impression that the Air 2000 operation was for the winter only.

Also, I was told that it was due to the fact that Canadian charters just do not have the fleets available at this time.

As much as SSV has expanded, our fleets are solidly booked. The tour operators that are using Air 2000 need "immediate lift".

Come on Skyservice, hurry up and get some more 330's!
 
BWIA330
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 10:22 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Wed Dec 12, 2001 10:13 pm

Doesnt Air Tours and Skyservice belong to the same company? Look at the logo. Its similar to one another. I cant wait for SSV to get more A330's. Hopefully A330-200's also.

Regards

BWIA330
 
Gate Keeper
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2000 11:53 pm

Air 2000 In Canada...maybe Not!

Thu Dec 13, 2001 12:55 am

Sounds like a "Canadian solution" is almost wrapped up.

Request to use British carrier, crews still stands

By: Susan Pigg, business reporter

---Toronto-based Skyservice Airlines Inc. will take
over the leases on two Airbus A320s that have been
parked at Pearson Airport since Canada 3000
unexpectedly grounded all its 38 aircraft last month.
The two aircraft will give Signature Vacations a
"made-in-Canada solution" to getting thousands of
travellers to sun destinations this winter, and fend off
mounting opposition to its request for help from a
British airline while 14,000 airline workers remain jobless
in Canada, Signature said yesterday.
"As far as I'm concerned, it's done now, but it's a
matter of dotting the I's and crossing the T's," said
Grant DeMarsh, president of tour operations for
Signature Vacations.
"We're at the point now where we know all of our
customers are going to get their holidays."
Air Canada, Montreal-based Air Transat and
Calgary-based WestJet Airlines will also pick up some
of Signature's business, almost half of which had been
handled by Canada 3000 before it went bankrupt Nov.
9.
But those airlines combined couldn't handle all of
Signature's passengers and there were fears that
bankruptcy proceedings aimed, in part, at returning
Canada 3000's aircraft to their lessors were moving so
slowly, Skyservice wouldn't be able to get some of the
airplanes in time.
Some work is now being done on the planes, which are
expected to fly vacationers to Mexico, Cuba, the
Dominican Republic and Las Vegas between Dec. 20
and the end of April, said DeMarsh.
But, just in case, Signature has no plans to withdraw
its controversial application before the Canadian
Transportation Agency to have Signature's sister
company, British charter carrier Air 2000 Ltd., place
two Boeing 757s in Toronto and use its own crews to
operate some flights to southern destinations.
"Until there's a bow around the whole thing (the new
agreement with Skyservice), you don't want to cut off
any avenues," DeMarsh said in a telephone interview
yesterday.
That request to Ottawa had outraged other airlines
and unions for the 14,000 pilots, flight attendants,
baggage handlers, mechanics and other airline
employees who are now without jobs because of the
grounding of Canada 3000 and layoffs at other
Canadian airlines like giant Air Canada and Air Transat.
"I believe it sets a dangerous precedent," said Jim
Ballingall, vice-president of marketing and sales for
55-year-old First Air, which had protested the request
to have a British carrier fly passengers out of Canada
when there are so many carriers here ? including First
Air ? that could help pick up the slack.
"You have a number of potential operators, potential
investors, looking at buying parts of Canada 3000,"
and starting up new, although much smaller airlines,
Ballingall said. "If the government allows foreign
carriers to come in and take Canadians to sun
destinations, which is a good portion of what Canada
3000 did, why would anyone start up (an airline)
here?"
Air Canada had opposed the unusual application,
saying it could further destabilize Canada's already
fragile airline industry
 
ywg777
Posts: 1240
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 1999 9:40 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 12:57 am

I can't wait to see air 2000 in YWG. As well as the SSV annoucement. I just sure hope its this week.
YWG777
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

Finally!

Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:21 am

Gate Keeper, I just read the article in the Toronto Star myself, and this is something that makes more sense. For those who were undermining what I was trying to say all along in this thread, this "made in Canada" deal makes so much more sense to me, and it's just a matter or working a little bit harder on everybody's part!!!

And for those of you in Winnipeg who "can't wait to see the Air 2000 airplanes" over there, well, I would much rather be working and seeing our industry thriving than seeing a couple of British birds flying in our skies.

Even the option of wetleasing 2 Air 2000 aircraft is a great idea!!! Whichever option they choose, I think it's a great gain for our industry, our workers, our morale, and for the bottom line for SkyService. I honestly predict that SkyService will be a great success story that will live a long life in Canada.

I just can't handle the thought that the government would allow their original plan to go through, which, as the article states, is a dangerous precedence in the face of the turmoil that is happening in our industry.

"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Gate Keeper
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2000 11:53 pm

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:28 am

I think the idea YWG777 is that you will not see an Air 2000 aircraft flying Canadians(when Canadian airlines can provide the lift) and 10,000+ airline employees are without work. Sorry to disappoint you but point your camera at SkyService's (some formerly C3000) A320/319's instead!
 
lymanm
Posts: 1100
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

Carriers Other Than TS/SSV

Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:34 am

We keep hearing about TS and SSV taking over for C3's former Signature position. Does anybody have any info relating to how Air Canada, WestJet and First Air can(will?) help out? First Air has done charters in the past, although I'm not sure if WestJet has ever ventured here before. Air Canada should have no problem - they've got plenty of uneeded planes and crew they could use.

Any info, anybody?
buhh bye
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

Lymanm

Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:55 am

I honestly don't have any concrete info to give you, but I also know that First Air has done so in the past.

One thing I have heard from a friend of mine who is a Westjet pilot is that they have been approached numerous times before about doing charters, but they are so busy doing the domestic thing that they can't really go into charters.

I would think that there is a possibility they might change their minds if loads are going down, and with their 737-700's coming in. However, this is Westjet, a very well run company who thus far hasn't complained about loads!

To answer your question, I don't know if the airlines (SSV, TS, WJ etc) will provide the lift required for Signature. But they surely can, with so many workers layed off, and airplanes sitting still on the tarmac. Creativity goes a long way, and it's what makes industry thrive. But Canadians also have to prove to eachother, and to our brilliant government that we can do it, and we want to do it, and that we don't need the help of Air 2000!!!

"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
ywg777
Posts: 1240
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 1999 9:40 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:40 am

Good point about TS SSV. But if air 2000 is here and basing a 757 then its obvious that they came in to help with the C3 pax. That would be the only reaon why I would think they would be here.
YWG777
 
rootsgirl
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 3:24 am

SSV is contacting in-flight managers today and putting them on an emergency standby list to POSSIBLY train on the B-757. Seems Air 2000 will only be using British front end on such flights if and ONLY if their aircraft are needed. Same as when SSV takes the 320 over to the U.K. to wet lease for Airtours in the summer. The front end is Canadian but the back end is British.

Behind the scenes things are heating up at SSV so that they can quickly acquire the aircraft they need in order to prevent the entire Air 2000 deal from being a necessity. But as the Toronto Star article indicates, you can't just acquire an airplane overnight. Lets hope a Canadian carrier ,( preferabley SSV, Westjet, Firstair or Transat) will firstly be able to take the overflow of pax and save the Air 2000 remedy as a last resort.

Worst case scenario bud, you will get your photo of the Air 2000 aircraft with a Canadian back end operating! Cheers!
 
User avatar
Crosswind
Posts: 2536
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:34 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:21 am

Can't believe the attitudes of some people in this thread, while you may not like the idea of a British airline operating G- registered aircraft in Canada, no British people appear to particularly mind Canadian aircraft and crews operating in the UK during the Summer.

Canadian registered 757s have been operated on behalf of Air 2000, Flying Colours and JMC Airlines in the UK over the past 3 years. For the past 3 Summers SkyService have operated 2 C- registered A320s in the UK using Canadian crews and Airtours flightnumbers.

Just as many Canadian pilots work in the UK during the Summer, as British pilots work in Canada during the Winter.

Yes, there are a lot of airline staff unemployed in Canada at the moment, but there are also a lot of unemployed airline personnel in the UK too. If Canada had refused Air 2000 access to the Canadian market for the Winter with 2 B757s, then the UK would have been unlikely to approve SkyService access to the UK market for the Summer with 2 A320s. The result?

- Air 2000 have 2 aircraft and crews sat idle for the Winter, SkyService have 2 aircraft and crews sat idle for the Summer. Given the state of the airline industry that wouldn't benefit anyone.

While it's all well and good to say that Signature should use Canadian carriers, it's not really that practical. For either Air Transat or SkyService it's logistically difficult to obtain suitable aircraft, train crews to fly them and introduce them operationally into the fleet within a short space of time. In particular SkyService has undergone very rapid expansion in past weeks, and there are limits to how big a company can get without changing it's structure.

Now suppose a Canadian airline does add those extra aircraft to avoid the need for Air 2000 to fly in Canada, what are they going to do with those aircraft in the Summer? When demand falls off and they just don't need the aircraft until the following November, where will the aircraft go?

Well they'd better park up the aircraft in the Mojave for the Summer and lay off the crews, because they won't be coming to Europe like they normally would.

In reality the UK and Canada will always be cross seasonal, UK carriers will always look to utilise aircraft and crews in Canada during the Winter, and Canadian airlines will always seek opportunity to use their aircraft in the UK during the Summer. There aren't really any other viable alternatives.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 6:00 am

Crosswind, with all due respect, I agree with what you have to say for the most part. For the most part, because you are saying like this has happened before, when in fact this is new.

It is not new for UK carriers to come in to Canada on wet leases, with front end crews. I am also aware of Canadian registered aircraft going to the UK with front end crews to operate during the summer. Yes, it is very true that the UK is strong in the summer and weak in the winter, and vice versa in Canada. Therefore, there is much to gain for both country's airlines to cooperate with eachother and wet lease aircraft to one another, thus providing some stability to both country's industries.

It is new however, for a UK carrier to come in to operate with both front end crews and back end crews, thereby eliminating the use of front end and back end crews in Canada, for the profit of a UK carrier. It would be a solution if this were a time when there wasn't much in terms of extra capacity in Canada, but unfortunately, there is too much capacity and many airplanes sitting around, as well as crews.

I don't say this with any arrogance, and I don't say this because I hate Air 2000 in any way. I think we all should cooperate and also I think there should be provisions to allow for Canadian carriers to better cooperate with international carriers, but alas, we shall not give in to carriers around the world, and let them come in here to operate routes without any sort of gain to us in Canada.


Also, I cannot blame the particular companies for coming up with this sollution. Yes, it is the easiest sollution available, because Signature needs airplanes to take passengers to destinations, they deal with Air 2000 already, so bring them in. It is the easiest thing to do. However, with some creativity, they can use Canadian people to do these flights.

SSV is an excellent operation, and in fact very worthy of adding extra capacity to do these flights. Of course, I do not want to see them grow to the point where they will go the way of C3. They must be very careful. Air Transat does in fact have airplanes sitting idle at Pearson. Yes they are for the most part L1011's, but again, some creativity will allow them to provide the needed capacity.

You also have that wonderful Canada 3000 museum of aircraft sitting at Pearson Airport doing nothing at all. There have been certain parties interested in putting these aircraft back into service, but that process is taking much too long, and for a variety of reasons.

So my bottom line is, we have lots of Canadian options to pursue first before we should look elsewhere for help. Allowing a UK airline to operate from Canada with ALL UK crews is new. We do have the capacity. We do have the people. Let's put them to work first.


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
User avatar
Crosswind
Posts: 2536
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:34 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 6:20 am

Captaingomes,
Yes I agree with your point about this agreement being out-of-the-ordinary in that normally Air Transat/SkyService/Royal/Canada 3000 ground and cabin crews are used.

Just out of interest, has it been said that they won't use Canadian cabin staff? Air 2000 have always used local cabin crews in the past on their operations out of Canada, Denmark, Argentina, Chile, Spain and the Bahamas. They only retain the backend staff they need for the winter to fly their own UK-based programme. With the numbers of Canadian cabin crew available, and relative costs of accomodating large numbers of British staff in Canada, I'd be surprised if they were planning to use British cabin staff for these flights.

British personnel have in the past been confined to pilots and engineers. Cabin crew would be recruited locally, and everything else (passenger/aircraft handling, representation, catering etc) would also be contracted out locally. Even though it would be a British carrier operating these flights, most of the people involved in any Canadian operation are likely to be Canadian.

Anyway, we'll just have to wait and see what happens! This thread has been pretty pleasant and good natured when compared to some, especially given the contentious issue being discussed...

Our views aren't a million miles apart, and it appears the main differences stem from which side of the Atlantic we're looking at it from!  Wink/being sarcastic

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 6:30 am

Crosswind,

if I were still working with Canada 3000, and were flying to the UK soon, I'd say "let's discuss this at a local pub over a few pints". But, that wont be the case.

The real uproar is really that in fact, they would use UK backend crews. That is new. And in today's circumstances, should not be allowed. hehehe. That is why I started this whole thread, and I agree that it has stayed in a somewhat friendly tone. I guess my blood did boil a couple times, but hey, I feel strongly over this.

We'll see what does in fact happen, and let's hope it is for the best of all parties involved. Let's get those Canadians to their destinations. Let's get all people back to work, and let's get airlines who know not only to compete with one another, striving to provide the best possible products for their customers, as well as knowing how to cooperate with one another and learning from one another.

Cheers  Big thumbs up
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
rootsgirl
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 7:31 am

Guys, they are only utilizing the Air 2000 Front End. All back end are Canadian flight attendants from SSV.
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 10:09 am

Rootsgirl Air2K is comming with 757's are you guys trained for that airplane, I could see them getting ex royal or c3 people who are already trained to work the 57, I would think that there are a number of differances between the plastic and metal airplane (Ooops did I say that  Smile ) ? Regardless, from what I read in the tc release, it sounded like they wanted front and back end...but I guess I was mistaken.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
YWG
Posts: 1055
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2001 11:29 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 10:43 am

Air 2000 has been in YWG before while flying MAN-LAX with a 757....for fuel.
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 12:40 pm

Rootsgirl, the original plan was to use the 757's with front and back end crews from Air 2000, and had nothing to do with SkyService at all.

You may be referring to some update on what was originally being proposed, considering all the noise that has happened. Of course, I didn't make any noise  Big grin

"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
fallingeese
Posts: 2031
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:33 pm

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:14 pm

So is there been a date set for the approval are appeal yet?
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
rootsgirl
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:56 pm

Guys,
SSV will be using ex-c300 f/a's for the 757's and as I am welcoming them to SSV, I am referring to them as SSV F/a's because they are now oficially SSV flight attendants.

I do believe that yes, it is probably a government regulation that the back end be Canadian...this is just a speculation on my behalf and again we are just putting them through the training IN CASE we don't have the 320's set up on time.

They start the cross training tomorrow. Cheers!

 
User avatar
Crosswind
Posts: 2536
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:34 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Thu Dec 13, 2001 9:55 pm

In a similar vein, thought you might be interested in this from e-Tid yesterday;

-----
First Choice firms up Canadian intentions

First Choice has joined its rival Airtours by admitting that the collapse of Canada 3000 opens up a swathe of opportunities in North America.

Talking to journalists yesterday, First Choice chief exec Peter Long made no apologies for exploiting somebody else’s downfall. ‘It’s business,’ he said, pointing out that the demise of Canada 3000 ‘killed off any overcapacity in the industry in one fell swoop’ and ‘it’s a very big market’.

Canada 3000 owned a tour operator which has also stopped trading.

The performance of First Choice’s Canadian operation was a cause for concern before the 11th. A trading statement issued towards the end of July revealed that summer 2001 was performing no better than 2000 at a point when the rest of the group was seeing double-digit growth.

At the year-end, First Choice’s mainstream operations in North America recorded a pretax loss of £0.6m on sales of £221.9m compared with a greater loss (£1.9m) on fewer sales (£218.2m) last year. Its specialist businesses made £1.1m on sales of £12.1m.
Capacity for the Canadian operation’s winter season was slashed by 35% in First Choice’s October 4 announcement. However, Canada 3000 collapsed at the start of November, resulting in an improvement in booking trends. Reports from Canada last week suggested that Air 2000, First Choice’s charter operation, was looking at operating charter flights for Signature. Long confirmed this, and added that Air 2000 was also interested in becoming a charter operator for other Canadian long-haul operators who previously used Canada 3000 planes.

First Choice’s rival Airtours has also expressed an interest in mopping up any unfulfilled Canadian demand. Its North American charter operations are now absorbed into TSI. Airtours FYs issued late Nov showed that the charter ops turned round a £16.2m operating loss into a £2.9m profit.

-----

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Air 2000 In Canada!?!?

Fri Dec 14, 2001 1:36 am

That's really interesting stuff, and it will be, as rootsgirl has said in the past, a "very interesting year in Canadian aviation." However, that applies to every year. Makes you wonder if it is in fact wise to seek permanent employment in the industry, or just have aviation as a hobby.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: alggag, alomar, KrustyTheKlown, masseybrown, qfflyer, rhuns, robr, sassiciai, sierra3tango, ttm, VAAengineer, Vinka and 211 guests