Guest

After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Wed Dec 05, 2001 1:14 pm

I was under the impression US charter flights could goto Cuba.. Maybe I am wrong.

I know Cuba has to be a gold mine for tourists. When Castro is gone, will we have good enough foreign relations with Cuba to allow massive influx of scheduled flights to Cuba?

I do know Cubana flies to Canada. Personally I dont see how any person in their right mind would fly Cubana to Cuba, you have to be desparate, Castro will die sooner or later... I can wait.

 
serge
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Wed Dec 05, 2001 1:24 pm

Hmmmmm, I too was wondering this but I think he has a brother? I bet once castro dies his brother will take control. I doubt the US will intervine anytime soon either, we really don't need something like the Bay of Pigs happening again (correct me if I'm wrong, thats what the incident before the Cold War was referred to as right Confused)

Believe me, I'd like to see castro and his brother dead just as much as you do...hehehehhaaah  Nuts

...Serge
 
co/ba
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Wed Dec 05, 2001 1:34 pm

I know that CO has or had a charter run to Cuba a few times a week. I definately think CO will be one of the first U.S. Airlines to serve Cuba. On another note Copa (partly owned by CO)serves Cuba rom Panama.
 
ripcordd
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Wed Dec 05, 2001 1:45 pm

United and i think American fly charters from Mia to Hav daliy.......Yes it will be a gold mine once US travelers are able to fly into Hav...I cant wait to visit Cuba/....
 
Guest

RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Wed Dec 05, 2001 1:46 pm

Sun Country also...

I personally feel it should be illegal for all americans to go to Cuba right now. I do know its possible for americans to catch flights to Cuba via foriegn ports. Our friggin military is down there, and they cannot leave the base because of the relations between the US and Cuba, and US Civilians are in Havana shopping? What a joke.

Anyhoo, I too will love to goto Cuba, AFTER flights from the USA are more or less routine.

Sun Country
Continental
Delta
NWA

will be the first ones to go...

That terminal there in Havana must need work. Would it be able to handle all the flights?

 
Guest

RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Wed Dec 05, 2001 2:07 pm

What is a joke is that America has a military base on Cuban sovereign soil, without the permission of the Cuban government in Havana. That is what is a joke!

Also, why do people think that once Castro is dead everything will change. Don't people realise that support for the revolution is still high in Cuba? Are people really that stupid to think that Fidel hasn't stayed in power by keeping people who are devoted to the revolution around him. These people will most likely continue with the revolution after Fidel's death, which will further piss off the Yanks.

What is a joke also, is that American airlines are currently allowed to fly to Cuba on charters, but why isn't Cubana granted the same privilege????????????
 
Hoffa
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Wed Dec 05, 2001 2:19 pm

Hmm Aviatsiya...didn't know there was much of a charter market from Cubans wishing to travel to the United States.  Big grin Seems like Fidel might have a bit of a problem with that one even if Cubana could obtain the requisite authority (They already overfly the US en-route to Canada).

I doubt the revolution will "continue" long after Castro's deaths and there are, to be fair, a good number of Cubans that don't support it (N.B. Thousands of political prisoners aren't being locked up for nothing). There is at least some indigenous dissent (however small) which does not necessarily mean people will rush with open arms to the US when Castro dies.

And while Castro has been over-demonized in my opinion he has to be honest made some nasty mistakes (i.e. Angola) over the years.

I think it's a legitimate concern that US corporations will swoop into Cuba and buy up every sizeable bit of industry and agriculture they can lay their hands on.

 
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RayChuang
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Wed Dec 05, 2001 3:56 pm

I'll say this: once the embargo is lifted against Cuba, you KNOW that AA will swoop in like an eagle (pun really intended!) and hog most of the MIA-HAV and JFK-HAV traffic. AA might as well start assigning 757-200's to the MIA-HAV route, probably flying between MIA and HAV at least once an hour from 0700 to 2100 hours local time.
 
Hoffa
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Wed Dec 05, 2001 4:34 pm

Actually Aviatsiya, the state of Florida is actively formulating disaster preparations for what is expected to be a huge effort on the part of Cuban exiles living in Florida to set sail for Cuba and bring back as many family members as they can carry once Castro has died and the chaotic conditions that will result.

Whether or not this will come to pass, only time can tell.

 
afay1
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Wed Dec 05, 2001 4:46 pm

The idea that Havana airport would need our investment is ridiculous as it implied the same sort of anachronistic ideas that keep relations between the two countries from normalizing. Without getting into it, it is suffice to say that since pretty much every other international airline flies to Havana and foreign tourists (i.e. Europeans) have been going there for years, the terminal is probably doing just fine without us.
 
Hoffa
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Wed Dec 05, 2001 4:50 pm

Who said anything about investment in Havana airport?

Even though a wide variety of airlines fly there, most of the charter airlines avoid it and fly directly to Varadero, etc and even that is only a few times a week.
 
mls515
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:17 pm



Aviatsiya-

The joke is on you and the revolution!  Big grin The American military base on the island of Cuba predates the government in Havana!
 
jetBlue320
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Wed Dec 05, 2001 8:45 pm

Will that man EVER die? If he is... I wish he would HURRY THE HELL UP.
 
Ironminds
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Wed Dec 05, 2001 8:58 pm

I'm sure AA will come in, too -- they're a natch for Cuban service.

I'm an AMerican who has travelled to the island, via Nassau, and it's pretty easy to do if you know what you're doing. I also found that support for the revolution was superficial at best, and that Castro uses the embargo as a distration for all the horrible conditions on his island economically and politically -- which is why the policy is such a poor idea. It only props the bastard up.

What is even more ridiculous that "an american base on cuba without their permission" (let's see them do something about it) is all the personal property that was taken from cubans without their permission during the revolution.
 
Guest

RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 12:26 am

The surest bets to start Havana service after Castro is gone are those airlines with hubs in New York City, Florida and close to the Gulf. Typical routes we'll most likely see started, assuming these carriers are still around:

- American, from Miami, New York JFK, Chicago and Dallas/Fort Worth; perhaps from LAX, too. (AA and/or American Eagle would almost certainly have an interest in seeking routes to other Cuban destinations from MIA, such as Varadero, Santiago de Cuba, etc.)

- Continental, from Newark and Houston

- Delta, from Atlanta and New York JFK

- United, from Washington Dulles, Chicago and possibly others.

As for the other issues raised:

- The U.S. base at Guantanamo is legal. If I remember correctly, the U.S. has a lease, agreed to by the Cuban government in the 1930s, that can only be terminated by abandonment or mutual agreement.

- A new terminal was opened at HAV in the past few years. I think it was a Canadian company that designed and built it.

- After Castro dies, a nominal attempt will be made to keep the 'revolution' going, but it won't last long. In a best-case scenario, Cuba will follow the Czech scenario and make a quick transition to a stable, law-based democracy. In a worst-case scenario, it will become a Caribbean Russia, overrun with organized crime and plagued by the effects of political, social and economic shock therapy.

 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 12:47 am

Well, honestly I don´t hope that American tourists rush into Cuba. Please don´t understand me wrong but currently the hotels and clubs are points where you don´t have a 24-hours entertainment but they are places where you can relax. With american tourists rushing into the country this would likely change to 24-hour entertainment-clubs (in those it doesn´t matter in which country you are like with the big cruise ships such as the "Carnival Triumph" or "Brilliance of the Seas" ) very soon, taking the island its flair which is soooo much liked by European tourists. I know that I´ve limited US-american citizens just to persons only wanting entertainment all day long but pitily this is what I´ve experienced at several occations and I don´t want the cuban hospitality and friendliness destroyed - its such a nice place for holidays!

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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Guest

RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 12:58 am

OK....the Guantanamo base in Cuba is as a result of a treaty signed. BUT...seeing as Castro's government is the legitimate government in Cuba (even though America does not recognise it), any agreements must be considered null and void surely?

I doubt the revolution will "continue" long after Castro's deaths and there are, to be fair, a good number of Cubans that don't support it (N.B. Thousands of political prisoners aren't being locked up for nothing).

That's not good huh? But then again, I suppose its better than the days under Batista when political opponents weren't jailed; they were shot.  Insane

In a worst-case scenario, it will become a Caribbean Russia, overrun with organized crime and plagued by the effects of political, social and economic shock therapy.

Oh...you mean a return to the Batista days? How fun!  Insane

Sorry, couldn't resist  Laugh out loud
 
transswede
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 1:12 am

>I personally feel it should be illegal for all americans to
>go to Cuba right now.

Why?

Why not start flights now? Why not open up full diplomatic relations now? Why wait for Castro to die? This whole embargo is just antiquated... Newsflash! The Cold war is over. Cuba presents a 0% threat.

So you want Cuba to change? How about changing how we treat Cuba? I mean, afterall, the current strategy has worked SO WELL for the last 30 years. (sarcasm for the sarcasm impaired).

The fastest and most reliable way of changing Cuba would be to open up to Cuba, allowing the free movement of ideas and capital. You can't force freedoms on people - you have to expose them to it, and let them choose.
 
Guest

RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 1:16 am

Correction, Cubana is not allowed to fly over the US on it's way to Canada. Why do you think that their A320's needs a fuel stop at Halifax when then fly in and out of Montreal? They are flying over the atlantic and not over the US soil.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 1:19 am

TransSwede... best words I´ve read on this forum for a long long time... Maybe western countries - not only the US (I can only speak for Germany) - should re-think their whole foreign politic. From my point of view an inadequate politic by most western countries was the reason which brought the world into the current mess. But this does not really belong into this topic...

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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Guest

RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 1:28 am

With american tourists rushing into the country this would likely change to 24-hour entertainment-clubs (in those it doesn´t matter in which country you are like with the big cruise ships such as the "Carnival Triumph" or "Brilliance of the Seas" ) very soon, taking the island its flair which is soooo much liked by European tourists.

Flying-Tiger, while I would support what you say about the European tourists, don't you think that Cuba is also a big hit with the Europeans because of the total lack of American tourists which are like rats on the other islands.....as in....they are f***ing everywhere.  Laugh out loud

Nicolaki....is the CU stop in Halifax a tech-stop only? Or are they allowed to sell Havana-Halifax tickets?
 
PLL-LOT
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 1:40 am

It's always so nice to read a thread, become interested, then here Americans compared to rats and other dispicable things. Why is this necessary? Is it ever possible to be civil? I mean, I don't get on here and say stereotypical things about Germans and Russians. On an airliner board, I find it really disturbing that it's so accepted to be so hateful. Aren't we better than that--as humans?

 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 1:45 am

Aviatsyia, while I don´t have read your last words I believe that the main reason why european tourists -especially Germans and Britons - are visiting Cuba is that the island has not been converted into an out-sized "DisneyLand" to fullfil "american standarts of holiday" (as already pointed out the endless entertainment). I have nothing against US citizens - I have some friends living there - but their thinking of "holiday" is not comparable to the image of holiday European´s have. This is at least what I´ve experienced so please don´t start bashing me because of a personal statement.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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PLL-LOT
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 1:57 am

I'm American--and I know that might idea of holiday is not having to work, and possibly enjoying some sun and quiet. Most people are like this here, just as in Europe--and would prefer to relax rather than to be constantly entertained. I think your image of the American having to be entertained 24 hours a day results from the media's concentration on holiday travelers as those having children--who do need entertainment. And before we start bashing Disney, remember that a very large portion of visitors to Disneyworld come from abroad--particularly from Europe.

 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 2:12 am

Pll-lot, I agree with you. I haven´t bashed Disney - it is just THE world-known full-size entertainment parc and I picked it as an example to show you how I don´t want Cuba to become.

About the European tourists and DisneyLand you´re right. However most only stay there for two, three days, usually at the end of a round-trip through a part of the States, not for a full-size holiday like media always suggests Americans are doing. Maybe my understanding about this is wrong, then please correct me. But I think you´ve understood what I wanted to point out.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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PLL-LOT
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 2:41 am

Flying-Tiger. Yes, I understand what you're pointing out. It has always been a concern of mine that Cuba, once accessible by US tourism companies, would lose a lot of its local character to massive development. I have always wanted to go to Cuba, and don't support the embargo personally--feel it is counterproductive and highly outdated, as does most of the world. I agree with you, Flying-Tiger.
 
VirginA340
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 2:52 am

Aviatysta; That remark of comparing us to rats was really uncalled for pal. Remember that life is a 2 way street. So imagine on what we think of you when people like yourself talk shit about us. We are not the type that takes lemons and magically turn it into lemonade. We take lemons and stick them up their candy asses!

I do hope sanctions can be lifeted from Cuba soon. I heard they are better than Jamaca and PR but I love Jamaca. I hope the other islands like them don't suffer in lack of toursim.

PAN AM 3 flies to Guantanamo Bay for military charters a few days a week.
"FUIMUS"
 
Guest

RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 3:03 am

Are you people a bit silly?

Would you like me to say you are like flies? or cockroaches? Read: I did not call you rats or anything else.....what I did say was "you are like rats...AS IN.... you are farking everywhere. This is true about the islands of the Caribbean, where Cuba is the only island which hasn't been turned into an all-inclusive holiday resort for American tourists. This is a fact.

This is what some of the appeal of Cuba is, in that, whilst one can stay in their resort, they would be more inclined to venture into the towns or cities to sightsee and experience the local culture.

Just look at islands such as Jamaica. You have resort towns such as Montego Bay, Negril and Ocho Rios where the tourists who stay there (of which Americans are the major visitors...in sheer numbers) do not even venture out of the resort and experience the sights and sounds which most of these islands offer away from the beach or poolside.
 
PLL-LOT
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 3:40 am

It's a fact that we are farking everywhere? Have you visited each all-inclusive island of the Caribbean overrun by American "rats"? Are the Canary Islands overrun by Dutch and German "rats"? Just because people can afford to have a vacation somewhere doesn't really make them "rats" or "flies" or whatever you want to imply that they are. Quit being such a bitter queen, man.
 
Guest

RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 3:44 am

Our military has every right to be in Cuba. Just cuz.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 3:49 am

Just curious 757fan: why do you think so?

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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Jason Seiple
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 3:55 am

Scotty,
Before you make sweeping generalizations....
I am one of those Americans who visits resorts (usually in Mexico... but not Cancun... it's way too touristy and overrun with Americans). We do spend some time swimming and going to the beach and your typical "fun in the sun" stuff, but not everyday. I cannot stand sitting on the beach. It's boring and I can do it in Florida if I want to (hell, now I can drive 15 miles to the beach if I want to). Not all Americans are close-minded "We Are the Best" types. Some of us try to escape the tourist zones and see the true culture. If we wanted to just sit on the beach, why leave our own country?
 
Guest

RE: Flying-Tiger

Thu Dec 06, 2001 3:57 am

Just to make our presence felt. Thats all.

 
PLL-LOT
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 4:02 am

On behalf of other Americans that don't agree with 757s statement, that was a very uninformed and loaded statement.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 4:03 am

Not really reasonable IMO. Why do you want to make your presence felt? Why is Cuba "so bad"???? Sorry, but I don´t understand your reasons.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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PLL-LOT
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 4:27 am

Maybe 757 just wants to make *his* presence felt. I wouldn't trust any anti-Cuban argument unless it's coming from someone knowledgeable of the situation and its impact on Cuban-Americans. The embargo has never done anything but keep Cuba primitive, deny it adequate health programs, and fuel a black market economy. Unfortunately, there are some unrealistic, pre-Castro era way Right Wingers in Congress and the Senate who keep blocking measures to ease the embargo. In fact, right before September 11, things were looking very good for the eventual lifting of the embargo.

 
Hoffa
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 4:36 am

From what I've seen of Cuba on BBC Holiday and other programs there is really nothing so spectacular about the place that would make me want to go there over and above other beach locations which are both cheaper and more accessible from the United States. Puerto Rico for example has nicer beaches and has direct flights to a large number of American cities.

I suspect part of its attraction to Americans is that techinically they aren't permitted to go there.

I don't say the Batista regime was anything wonderful but Castro like it or not has been guilty of supporting terrorism---he is not just a hero "pissing off the Yanks". Sending 50,000 Cubans to their deaths in Angola to take one example had a devastating impact on Cuban society but the bereaved must suffer in silence since the revolution is by nature perfect according to Castro.
 
Guest

RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 4:45 am

Jason

The scenario which I presented isn't really a stereotypical one or one which isn't far from the truth.

Roughly 4 years ago, I did a lot of research on the way that resorts are going these days.

The biggest concern amongst tourism chiefs and tourist operators on the Caribbean islands is that tourists (of which statistically, Americans make up the largest proportion) are moreover heading for all-inclusive resorts; ones where they don't have to leave the resort grounds; for example, Sandals, Jack Tar, Hedonism, etc. Even their entertainment is fully provided. Much like a cruise ship, except it is on the land.

These all-inclusive resorts are forever on the increase within the Caribbean islands and tourists are flocking for them in droves.

Whilst, in principle, all-inclusive resorts are a good thing for the tourist (as everything is supplied), the big downside is, is that tourists don't get out into the "community at large" and spend money there which would help the local economies a lot more (the fact is is that most of these all-inclusive resorts are foreign owned and the money they make, for the most part, goes straight overseas). They also miss out on the culture of the place they are visiting; although they may be lucky to see a manufactured tourist version on one of the entertainment nights.

Like I said, this was 4 and a bit years ago, but the trend towards all-inclusives wouldn't have reversed since then.

Remember, there are two distinct parties when tourism is concerned. One is the tourist. The other is the traveller. The Caribbean islands as they stand at the moment are for most part for the tourist. Cuba is a destination for the traveller.
 
Avilitigator
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 5:54 am

Aviatsiya,

I agree with others on this thread that your comment equating Americans with Rats (or "Like Rats" -- no real distinction there), is uncalled for. Using your logic, Australians are rats in Bali, Germans and other Europeans are rats in the Algarve in Portugal, the French are rats in Tahiti, and the Japanese are rats in Hawaii -- farking everywhere.

And please get off your high horse about the distinction between travellers and tourists. If you're visiting another country and you don't have a legal right to stay there longer than allowed on a tourist visa, you're pretty much a tourist, no matter how far off the beaten track you like to go. People visit other countries for any number of reasons, such as value and finding things not found at home. To say that the European tourist who books a package tour to Cuba is a traveller, not a tourist, flies in the face of reality.

And to be equally [un]fair, remember that Club Med (i.e., French rats) were at the forefront of the all-inclusive vacation.

 
PLL-LOT
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 6:19 am

Yeah, quit being such a mean queen.
 
Guest

RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 6:48 am

Just my opinion.. Dont worry about it. Everyone has them. I shouldnt need to explain myself.
 
Guest

RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 7:14 am

I agree with others on this thread that your comment equating Americans with Rats (or "Like Rats" -- no real distinction there), is uncalled for.

Well it isn't my problem you have trouble comprehending what I was saying.

Using your logic, Australians are rats in Bali, Germans and other Europeans are rats in the Algarve in Portugal, the French are rats in Tahiti, and the Japanese are rats in Hawaii -- farking everywhere.

Exactly right!! I never said that wouldn't be the case. So what is your problem?

And please get off your high horse about the distinction between travellers and tourists. If you're visiting another country and you don't have a legal right to stay there longer than allowed on a tourist visa, you're pretty much a tourist, no matter how far off the beaten track you like to go.

You are by definition correct on this....however, in reality, you do have 2 distinct types of tourist. You have the tourist and the traveller. This is a fact, shown by companies which deal strictly with the 'traveller'.

A prime example of what I have experienced first hand. Quite a few years ago, Koh Samui (in Thailand) used to be a great destination for the traveller. The island was unspoilt and in it's natural state. You would get there via a rickety boat from the mainland. There were no huge 5-star all inclusive resorts on the beaches, rather they had small villas. You would buy your own food and cook it yourself. Yes, one would go there on a tourist visa, but the fact remains, that one would live as the locals do (i.e. a traveller). Only now, Koh Samui is full of 5-star resorts on the beaches, has an airport (with service from ATR-42s of Bangkok Airways), and all the mod cons which would make you feel like you never left home (i.e. catering to the tourist). Another example is Pulau Langkawi in Malaysia.

To say that the European tourist who books a package tour to Cuba is a traveller, not a tourist, flies in the face of reality.

Exactly, which is why I never said it. Don't try and put words in my mouth. What was that about reality?

And to be equally [un]fair, remember that Club Med (i.e., French rats) were at the forefront of the all-inclusive vacation.

Point taken (as I knew about Club Med). And again, Club Med caters to the tourist.
 
ScottB
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RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 7:43 am

If the revolution in Cuba were such a resounding success, why is it that Cubans who don't have U.S. dollars live in relative poverty, while those with relatives who send U.S. dollars in remittances live in relative comfort. Why is it that a broad array of goods are only available in government-owned dollar stores? Why is it that the government thus rewards those whose family members were traitors to the revolution and fled Cuba?

Why doesn't Cubana send charters from Cuba to the U.S.? Do you think that the Cuban government is particularly interested in allowing its citizens to travel freely to the United States? Are there many Americans getting on rafts or small boats to sneak into the socialist paradise that is Cuba? And why does a socialist paradise need to consort with capitalist dogs in order to sustain its economy? If you ask me, Castro should be fully supportive of the embargo in order to minimize subversive American economic influence in the socialist paradise.

Nominal support for the revolution is "high" in Cuba since (1) those who oppose the government are harassed and/or jailed, (2) access to university education is predicated on ideological purity and membership in socialist youth organizations (3) many who oppose the Castro regime have fled the country.

As for the development of all-inclusive resorts on some of the islands of the Caribbean - I believe that one of the major reasons for Sandals/Beaches-type resorts being the prime destinations in Jamaica is due to the crime problem on the island. I don't think they're the predominant type of resort on most of the other Caribbean islands - at least from my own experience
 
Avilitigator
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2000 12:29 pm

RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 8:17 am

"Well it isn't my problem you have trouble comprehending what I was saying."

Well, you seem to have a problem acknowleding that others on this forum have a problem with your generalizations and snipes about Americans. I, in fact, fully understood the distinction you were making about rats and "like rats." My point was that I and others take offense at your CHARACTERIZATION of Americans being everywhere like rats.

Using your logic, Australians are rats in Bali, Germans and other Europeans are
rats in the Algarve in Portugal, the French are rats in Tahiti, and the Japanese are
rats in Hawaii -- farking everywhere.

"Exactly right!! I never said that wouldn't be the case. So what is your problem?"

I don't have a problem to the best of my knowledge and to the best of my doctors'/dentists'/friends'/families' knowledge.... My point was that there are rats from every nation, and that America does not hold a monopoly on rat-ness.

And please get off your high horse about the distinction between travellers and
tourists. If you're visiting another country and you don't have a legal right to stay
there longer than allowed on a tourist visa, you're pretty much a tourist, no matter
how far off the beaten track you like to go.

You are by definition correct on this....however, in reality, you do have 2 distinct types
of tourist. You have the tourist and the traveller. This is a fact, shown by companies
which deal strictly with the 'traveller'.

A prime example of what I have experienced first hand. Quite a few years ago, Koh
Samui (in Thailand) used to be a great destination for the traveller. The island was
unspoilt and in it's natural state. You would get there via a rickety boat from the
mainland. There were no huge 5-star all inclusive resorts on the beaches, rather they
had small villas. You would buy your own food and cook it yourself. Yes, one would go
there on a tourist visa, but the fact remains, that one would live as the locals do (i.e. a
traveller). Only now, Koh Samui is full of 5-star resorts on the beaches, has an airport
(with service from ATR-42s of Bangkok Airways), and all the mod cons which would
make you feel like you never left home (i.e. catering to the tourist). Another example is
Pulau Langkawi in Malaysia.

Yes, I agree with you about Koh Samui -- very similar to what is happening on Koh Tao, and I've been to both places. We just have a different dividing line between tourists and travellers. I say that there's no distinction, they're all tourists, and you say that there's a definite distinction, according to the travel companies.

To say that the European tourist who books a package tour to Cuba is a traveller,
not a tourist, flies in the face of reality.

Exactly, which is why I never said it. Don't try and put words in my mouth. What was
that about reality?

Again, this is a disagreement on the definition of tourist, and that in the reality of the immigration/customs officials, a traveller is a tourist no matter how well-meaning his intentions of communing with the local people.

And to be equally [un]fair, remember that Club Med (i.e., French rats) were at the
forefront of the all-inclusive vacation.

Point taken (as I knew about Club Med). And again, Club Med caters to the tourist.

I agree that Club Med caters to tourists (arm-chair travellers?), but you didn't mention Club Med in your prior posts. My point, again, is that Americans don't have a monopoly on rat-ness, and that Americans such as this one will take offense at being stereotyped when other nationalities can also fall within the same stereotype.

We can parse out definitions and the semantics of tourist/traveller all day, so I'm content at just leaving it at we disagree on definitions and semantics.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24604
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 8:22 am

FYI, current US-Cuba routes:

American: Miami to Havana, Santiago, Camguey, Cienfuegos

Continental: Miami to Havana; JFK to Havana

United: Miami to Havana (with a 777!)

a.
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: After Castro... US Airlines To Cuba?

Thu Dec 06, 2001 9:37 am

Don't confuse Jamaica with the rest of the Caribbean. The reason most vistors favor the all inclusive places is because the rest of the island is unsafe, or did you miss the riots a few years back? FYI - Grand Cayman gets it's fair share of us ugly American visitors, yet there is little nightlife. Care to 'splain that one?
 
Guest

RE: Flying-Tiger

Thu Dec 06, 2001 9:45 am

We gotta put the "bad" Marines somewhere. We dont' want them in the US, or in a foreign country we actually get along with...  Big grin