Alee
Topic Author
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2001 3:44 pm

Air France's 767s

Fri Dec 07, 2001 3:23 pm

Why are they getting replaced so soon. The oldest 767 I think is about 10 yrs old, and AF received a couple in 93 which makes them 8 yrs old, pretty young for a plane. So what's the rush, are the 330s more economical?
 
TR
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 1:28 am

RE: Air France's 767s

Fri Dec 07, 2001 4:03 pm

The decision to exchange the A310s and B767s with new A330s was made a long time ago when noone could see the end to growth in the airline industry. However I am not sure that the same decision had been made if today was the day of deciding!


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Thomas
 
Hoffa
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RE: Air France's 767s

Fri Dec 07, 2001 4:07 pm

I seem to remember something about cancelled 747's and AF having to owe money unless they bought something else off the Boeing line?

I wonder how they stack up against the A310's since these two aircraft are direct competitors.
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
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RE: Air France's 767s

Fri Dec 07, 2001 6:07 pm

Hello Hoffa,

Actually they're phasing out the last A310 next January. Thus, there won't be A310s and A330s operated side by side for long.

Air France purchased 777s with the main it owed Boeing after the cancellations of 747-400Fs, 767-300ERs, 737-500s, ...

Air France wants to phase out the 767s because they build a too small fleet (currently 5 units, soon only 4 units) and moreover, their airplanes are powered by both CF6-80s and PW4000s. Therefore, they prefer to phase them out in favor of A330s which have a common crew rating with their A340s.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
CF-CPI
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2000 12:54 am

RE: Air France's 767s

Sat Dec 08, 2001 3:12 am

The 767s were initially acquired through the UTA merger as I recall, the latter carrier having some on order. When AF ordered more of them circa '92 or '93 some of the commentary hinted that they thought the 767 outperformed the A310 in some respects. (I'm not starting a war, just quoting).
 
sas a340
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2001 6:22 pm

RE: Air France's 767s

Sat Dec 08, 2001 3:41 am



When will the a330 arrive?
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Air France's 767s

Sat Dec 08, 2001 3:46 am

Hello,

Yes, Air France inherited two PW4060-powered 767-3Q8ERs from UTA and one 767-37EER from Aéromaritime (their charter subsidiary).

IIRC, Air France ordered their first CF6-80-powered 767-300ERs in April 1992, when they cancelled an order for four 747-400Fs in favor of three 767-300ERs.
In May 1995, that was converted to seven 767-300ERs (in addition to further Boeings). Eventually, all the orders Air France had for the 767s (and some 737-500s) were cancelled in favor of 10+10 777-200ERs in November 1996.

Actually, the A310s and the 767-300ERs were aimed at different missions: Africa/Middle-East for the for former (ABJ, DKR, NDJ, OUA, DXD, JED, ...) and thin long-haul routes for the latter (DEL, CCS, THR, ... and later PHL, BOS, IAH, ATL, CVG, ...).

The economics of the A310-300 vs. 767-300ER would be an interesting debate though.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

Air France's A330-200s

Sat Dec 08, 2001 3:50 am

Hello,

The first A330-200 should be delivered on 14 December.


Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: Air France's 767s

Sat Dec 08, 2001 8:15 am

The 764 would have made more sense for Air France, as it shares commonality with the 777, and Air France seems to have chosen the 777 family over the A340, as they have not ordered any new A340's, but continue to buy 777's.
 
usairways85
Posts: 3534
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: Air France's 767s

Sat Dec 08, 2001 8:24 am

when will all of the 767's be phased out. as of now air frace is still flying a 767 from cdg to philadelphia until november of next year.
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Air France's 767s

Sat Dec 08, 2001 8:24 am

AF's 767 fleet is mismatched and too small for economical operations in an airline the size of AF....remember, AF also had 2 767-200ERs that it inherited through merger that are now with EL AL.

With the A332, AF can eventually replace both the A310 and B767, and the new aircraft have a common cockpit with the A340 which is also in AF's fleet.

AF has a different way of looking at things: they have flown the 767 and A310 side by side for many years, considering them different types for different missions, while most airlines considered them competitors and picked one or the other. More recently, AF is very happy to fly both the A343 and B772 (and maybe B773 in the future), considering them to be distinct and for different missions while just about everyone else considers them direct competition for the other.
 
usairways85
Posts: 3534
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: Air France's 767s

Sat Dec 08, 2001 8:25 am

when will all of the 767's be phased out. as of now air frace is still flying a 767 from cdg to philadelphia until november of next year.
 
cba
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Dutchjet

Sat Dec 08, 2001 8:31 am

Air France has ordered the 777-300ER.
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Air France's 767s

Sat Dec 08, 2001 8:34 am

First, thanks cba, did not know that AF's 773 order was firm.

It is my understanding that the A310 aircraft will go first, followed by the 767s, with both types being out of the fleet in about 18 months time, however, with all that is going on in the (airline) world, that could have changed.
 
AirCanadaMan
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2000 4:42 am

RE: Air France's 767s

Sat Dec 08, 2001 8:43 am

http://justplanes.net/images/welcome608.jpg

The first AF A330, for those who are interested.
 
EGFF
Posts: 2082
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2001 5:53 am

RE: Air France's 767s

Sat Dec 08, 2001 9:18 am

Bring in the A330's !!!!!
EGFF  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
All together or not at all
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

767-200ERs

Sat Dec 08, 2001 8:56 pm

Hello Dutchjet,

Indeed, the last A310s will be retired next January, whereas the 767s will remain for some time.


Regarding the two 767-300ERs (F-GHGE and GD), they were briefly operated on CDG-RUN (Réunion island, Indian Ocean) where no 747-100 could do it non-stop both ways during the winter months, and on two weekly CDG-JFK flights. They were quickly withdrawn and leased to Balkan before being sold to El Al.



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Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: Air France's 767s

Sat Dec 08, 2001 11:05 pm

I flew the AF 767-300 from BOS to CDG and back a year ago and it was nowhere near as nice as the 777 and even the A340's in their fleet. The cabin carpets were worn, the walls scratched up with luggage marks, and the service basic and no more. By contrast, I flew the AF 777 to Paris and back a few months later from JFK and found the service to be very good and quite attentive in coach. AF has really turned itself around. I was quite pleased.

ContinentalEWR