BFS
Topic Author
Posts: 699
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 2:33 am

Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Fri Dec 21, 2001 9:55 am

For a long time I believed that no premium airline with any self respect or respect for tis customers would configure a wide body jet with the 5 middle seats ever again. I still hear stories of my aunt being trapped in this in a BA DC10 LGW-DFW. So you can imagine my astonishment to read that AA and UA, and Delta I believe, do have this ridiculous configuration. On long haul flights??? I didn't believe it until I looked a pictures not 5 minutes hence. WHY? WHY? WHY? I mean is it just my imagination or does 2+5+2 equal nine, as does 3+3+3??? Why are they so cruel to their lovely passengers? It makes no sense! Any other stupid policies that make you cringe the second you step on board?

Paddy.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24594
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Fri Dec 21, 2001 9:59 am

That is just the way things are. I know DL is converting thier 772s to 3+3+3, but only one has been converted so far.
a.
 
Jason Seiple
Posts: 686
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2000 7:42 am

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:01 am

Think of it this way....
With 2-5-2, only one person is more than one seat away from an aisle.

With 3-3-3, two people are more than one seat away from an aisle.
 
Guest

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:05 am

I think 2-5-2 is a brilliant decision, not only is it better then the 3-3-3 for families of 4, but also if you are lucky to get 5 seats to yourself, you can lie down and have a good sleep!
Iain
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:07 am

5 seats to yourself!?! HA!!!!! Not in a million years. Why can't they do a 2x4x3? Way better than a 2x5x2.
"FUIMUS"
 
Guest

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:16 am

I have had 5 seats to myself a couple times, so it is not as rare as you think. I think it is important to have the airplane symetrical or you will confuse passengers.
Iain
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24594
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:45 am

Five seats to yourself is not that rare, it does happen. I have had three seats to myself a few times, most recently on JFK-MXP on DL. Very comfortable to say the least.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Unfortunatley, I rarely seem to be on a flight that does not sell out and I just don't understand why I never get empty planes. I would especially think that an 11pm 767 from ATL to MIA would be empty...but nope...it's jam packed! Enough rambling though. I don't think 2-5-2 is THAT bad. Personally, I perfer it, because I almost always ask for a window seat, so I only am one seat away from the asile, not two. .
a.
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:50 am

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:50 am

The eternal question: "Why do airlines make such stupid decisions?
 
2cn
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:30 pm

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Fri Dec 21, 2001 11:20 am

2-5-2 seating isnt that bad.. as long as you are not in the middle seat in the center... and if you do get stuck in the center, hope you can sleep the entire flight and not have to get up... then it isnt as bad as some make it seem.
 
ATL Traveller
Posts: 163
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 1999 2:30 pm

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Fri Dec 21, 2001 1:36 pm

I flew on a Delta L-1011 last year with only 15 passengers. Allof us could have had five seats to ourselves. I sat by the window.
 
Eric505
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 11:18 am

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Fri Dec 21, 2001 1:43 pm

I think I have you all beat. A couple of weeks after 9/11, I flew on a Delta 757 where there were 4 passengers aboard. Me and my friend had the entire coach section to ourselves, as the other two passengers were first. I even got the pilots to sign the safety card for me!

Eric505
Alcohol is the anesthesia by which we endure the operation of life
 
NAACREW
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2001 3:05 pm

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Fri Dec 21, 2001 1:52 pm

Eric505: Didnt the DL F/A's offer you to come sit in FC? Shame on DL if they didnt.
 
Notar520AC
Posts: 1517
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2001 6:53 am

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Fri Dec 21, 2001 2:09 pm

Ya know, now that I think about it, that's probably why NETJETS is so sucessful. They opperate large jets with custom interriors, and they get a lot of charter business from corporations that don't want to bother with the airlines... especially right now.
BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
 
Eric505
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 11:18 am

NAAcrew

Sat Dec 22, 2001 11:18 am

I did not see the FA's after their safety spiel. I got a salad from SkyDeli on the jetway (water included). I enjoyed sitting in coach (of course FC would have been better) . I can't really complain though, b/c I paid just $209 for a transcontinental flight.

Eric505
Alcohol is the anesthesia by which we endure the operation of life
 
Guest

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Sat Dec 22, 2001 1:21 pm

I'm surprised to hear that those loads are so low. I've been flying non-rev a few times the past couple weeks and keep getting bumped. Everything is booked full.

Today (21st) we had nearly all our flights over 25 people (34 seats).
 
jasewgtn
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2000 5:24 am

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Sat Dec 22, 2001 2:05 pm

I think Swissair's is the best.... 2 x 4 x 3

Means you can seat almost anyfamily group / friends together
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Sat Dec 22, 2001 2:06 pm

BFS :

Dude, airlines are businesses like any other. Money is always the key issue, airlines always listen and pay attention to passengers, however, the don't have to do anything about it. They will use a lot of calculations to predict if they get better sales to cover the costs of improved comfort, if it doesn't work out in time for their quarterly earnings report, they'll drop it. It might even make them look bad, from an investment-in-the-short-term point of view.

If you don't believe me, them ask yourselves why most businesses layoff workers in a time of economic slowdown? It's not so much that they can't pay them, it's more that they prefer to maintain their profit margins.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Sat Dec 22, 2001 9:36 pm

Most "stupid" business decisions made by airline management are the results of the airlines being run by "bean counters" who have no vision of the future beyond the next two or three quarterly statements. Think about it. WN is totally unionized. While their pay scale is a little less than the majors, it is certainly far above AirTran, America West, Vanguard, or Jet Blue. The airline still operates 737-200A's and even in this environment, is making money, and yet their yields are much lower than the majors. Southwest doesn't serve food but neither does any other airline except on very long flights, over four hours. Why is this? You figure it out. Southwest is market driven. It is run by marketing people, not accountants. The idea of depending on someone paying $1800.00 to fly from ATL to LGA RT is lunacy. The reason that the airlines are losing money is simple. There is a recession and when things slow down, corporate travel is the first thing to be cut. Mom and Dad still come and visit the grandchildren, but if a meeting in BOS is not absolutely necessary, it isn't held. United pulls the Shuttle by United. Delta cuts Delta Express in half. USAirways cuts their MetroJet service, and Southwest enters the markets and makes money. Now think about what Delta saves by grounding the 737-232's and cutting back Express operations. They get to furlough some pilots. They had some flight attendants take leaves, and they save some fuel, that is now much cheaper than it was a year ago. Their fixed costs stay the same, but because these accounting idiots have arbitrarily decided to allocate fixed costs to these flights, they claim that they lose money. That is a bunch of hogwash. I passed the CPA exam. I understand cost accounting, and its this kind of decision making that has put the majors in the position that they are in.

Another good example of this is the accounting for Frequent Flyer Miles. Now just how are these miles created, from selling tickets, expensive ones. It takes about 50,000 miles to get a FC roundtrip ticket to Hawaii, 100,000 miles for a pair. Now how much revenue was generated from the passenger that earned those miles. Most of these miles are earned by high yield passengers. At at least 50 cents per mile flown. So the airline earns $50,000.00 or more from the passenger who receives 100,000 FF miles. The cost of two FC seats to Hawaii, is about $5,000.00 so this amounts to a 10% discount on the flights that the mileage was earned on. Do you get my drift? Flying those passengers to Hawaii earned that airline a $50,000.00 on other flights, but instead, they cancel ATL-HNL or ORD-HNL service because they claim that a full 15% of the passengers are flying on FF tickets. Well if they don't fly to Hawaii, they will use the miles elsewhere. Its just an accounting game, but the sad thing is that hard working people are losing their jobs, and stockholders are losing their investments because these accounting idiots can't see beyond the scope of their tunnel vision.
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 1:17 am

If 2-5-2 seating instead of 3-3-3 were among the most stupid decisions that airlines make, they would be be in much better shape. In a recent "Airways" article titled "Dumb and Dumber" by David C. Forward, an excellent point was made (my paraphrase):

There's nothing wrong with making mistakes. However, to go on making the same mistakes while expecting a different result amounts to insanity.

What an altogether fitting description of the mentality that pervades in the decision making of the U.S. full-service majors; same old, same old while vainly supposing "the outcome will be different this time."

The issues that have put the U.S. full-service airlines in their current predicament are infinitely more profound than their choice of coach seating configurations in their 777 and MD-11 fleets.

BTW, for reasons Jason Seiple and others have stated, I prefer 2-5-2 over 3-3-3.



 
baxter
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:55 am

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 2:14 am

Its fascinating to watch the twice-a-year teenage traveller dissect the market research and decisions of various airline executives. Keep it up.
 
Guest

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 2:22 am

If Midwest Express flew widebodies, I would like to see how they would set it up. I think I would go 2X4X2 with a good couple of feet between the "4" section. I believe I saw a similar set up in a picture of an Airbus widebody, or at least I thought I did.
 
2cn
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:30 pm

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 5:51 am

Flying those passengers to Hawaii earned that airline a $50,000.00 on other flights, but instead, they cancel ATL-HNL or ORD-HNL service because they claim that a full 15% of the passengers are flying on FF tickets.

Umm.. miles.. since you named the ATL-HNL route.. most likely its Delta.. they didnt drop it because they could not make a profit, it was dropped because they could not agree with their pilots on a way to make that a non stop flight. The pilots wanted a BizElite seat for their crew rest seat.. Delta did not want to take up space with a BizElite seat since the 764 is on high capacity routes where they need the seats the BizELite seat would've taken up. So to stop having a quick refueling and crew change at LAX, and requiring a special shift just for this flight at LAX- yes.. they actually had a shift just because of the flight coming in on the Ramp.. though they did work other flights at the start of their 8 hour shift and the end, they were just there for the one ATL-HNL flight- they decided to end it and move it to SLC so it could be a non stop... the guys working the ramp area for that special shift werent too happy when it ended since it was an easy shift.
 
BFS
Topic Author
Posts: 699
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 2:33 am

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 10:10 am

Yes, the twice-a-year teenage travellers view is very interesting, isn't it. Nearly as much as the supercilious "i-fly-therefore-i-am" passenger we have the pleasure of seeing on this board quite regularly. I am merely saying, my dearest Baxter, that if I were flying alone and was allocated seat 52E on a fully-laden, long-haul flight after paying premium airline prices, I for one wouldn't appreciate it. My personal view is that if the furthest I am away from an aisle is 2 (and having to be in a window seat), it's a small trade-off. By the way, I am quite a regular flyer but largely on 737s and A320s, very few widebodies.

Merry Christmas,
Paddy.
 
Herbman
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:45 am

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 6:16 pm

Several airlines (e.g. LH inside Germany) offers business class fairs for the same seats with same space. It's very hard to exept if you have booked a SQ flight..

Atherwise AZ! The business class inside Europe ..
Please check the pic's.
AZ MD-82

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Photo © Chris Liao



LH A-320

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Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Ingo Richardt




Regards


Sebastian
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: Why Do Airlines Make Such Stupid Decisions?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 2:48 pm

The information concerning Delta's decision to drop ATL-HNL and DFW-HNL had little to do with the crew rest issue. Rather than settle that issue with DALPA, they dropped the flights. The SLC-HNL flights are seldom full while 53-54 and 16-17 were almost always full. The bit about FF miles came right out of the Delta Digest. An employee supposedly wrote in and asked why they dropped nonstop HNL service from DFW and ATL, and the answer given BY MANAGEMENT in the DELTA DIGEST was that the flights lost money because "a full 15% of the passengers were flying on Sky Miles Tickets." That wasn't my opinion, that's what Leo and Vickie and the rest of them wrote. You figure it out!
Delta now has an 85% break even load factor. In the fourth quarter they are going to lose $500 Million. They will run out of cash in 12 months at that rate.

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