ryu2
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Who Got Pan Am's AFrica/South America Routes

Sun Dec 23, 2001 7:05 am

I know UA got Pan Am 1's Pacific routes, and the LHR slots, and DL got the other European routes of PA.

Did any carrier inherit Pan Am's routes in Africa, the Middle East, or South America?
 
DeltaRules
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RE: Who Got Pan Am's AFrica/South America Routes

Sun Dec 23, 2001 7:30 am

I'm not sure, but I think UA also got Pan Am's Latin American routes.

DeltaRules
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ContinentalEWR
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RE: Who Got Pan Am's AFrica/South America Routes

Sun Dec 23, 2001 7:58 am

No, United did not get Pan Am's Latin America routes. It bought them, after Delta backed out of major financing for Pan Am, following DL's acquisition of PA's Transatlantic routes. United purchased the majority of those Latin America routes, but it did not "inherit" them.

Pan Am never had much of a presence in Africa. It did operate a JFK-Frankfurt-Nairobi flight, which was flown with a 747 then an A310 but it was only very briefly operated by Delta post-1991 when it acquired Pan Am's North Atlantic operation and then dropped the flight altogether.

I wonder if Delta still has route authority to Nairobi?

ContinentalEWR
 
Cody
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RE: Who Got Pan Am's AFrica/South America Routes

Sun Dec 23, 2001 9:45 am

I am not sure if Delta can operate to Nairobi, but I know that when United ended up with those routes to Latin America, they won Pan Am's authority to fly from Miami to Rio de Janiero continuing across the South Atlantic to Narobi, but "with no local traffic rights between Rio and Nairobi." I am reading that right now word for word in a 1992 "Aviation Week and Space Technology". Pan Am had a lot of routes I wasn't even aware of.
 
VirginA340
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RE: Who Got Pan Am's AFrica/South America Routes

Sun Dec 23, 2001 12:39 pm

I heard that both UA and DL bought the routes 50% to DL and the other 50 to UAL. Either way PA was no where near the size of EAL. Remeber that more South Americans and Carribean National remember EAL and Braniff more than PA. When DL and UAL spil the routes. Their presence became a trickle compared to the dominace of CO and AA.
"FUIMUS"
 
The777Man
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RE: Who Got Pan Am's AFrica/South America Routes

Sun Dec 23, 2001 7:22 pm

I have also heard that UA has traffic rights to JNB from GRU and from LHR. From what I remember, UA has fifth freedom rights on LHR-JNB. UA has many more unused traffic rights that I can't think of right now. The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
covert
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RE: Who Got Pan Am's AFrica/South America Routes

Mon Dec 24, 2001 2:20 am

well, i dont see any us airline flying to africa...
none
 
delta-flyer
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RE: Who Got Pan Am's AFrica/South America Routes

Mon Dec 24, 2001 4:30 am

Just out of interest, I have a 1970-era map of PanAm's routes, and back then, they covered Africa quite well, with nonstops from JFK to Dakar and Rabat, with continuation to Monrovia, Abidjan, Accra, Lagos, Entebbe, Nairobi, Dar es Salaam, Douala, Kinshasa and Johannesburg. How things have changed!

On the PanAm South American routes, did UA sell them to AA?

Cheers,
Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
The777Man
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RE: Who Got Pan Am's AFrica/South America Routes

Mon Dec 24, 2001 7:01 am

No, UA bid for them after Pan Am went out of business and was successful in getting the routes. Delta Air Lines also bid but did not get them. AA bought their Latin American routes from Eastern Airlines so UA has not sold any routes to AA. The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
DETA737
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RE: ContinentalEWR

Mon Dec 24, 2001 7:22 am

Pan Am had a huge presence in Africa. I remember seeing a 1973 advertisement in Africa Weekly or some sort of African magazine that showed their desinations in Africa: Abidjan, Acca, Conakry, Cotonou, Dakar, Dar es Salaam, Douala, Entebbe, Johannesburg, Kinshasa, Lagos, Libreville, Monrovia, Nairobi and Rabat.
 
panamair
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RE: ContinentalEWR

Tue Dec 25, 2001 4:03 am

Pan Am did have a strong presence in Africa in the 70s, operating mostly 707s and some 747s. By the 80s, they were down to a 747 2-3 times weekly from JFK to Dakar, Roberts Field (Monrovia), Lagos, and then Nairobi. For a period, they also operated a 747SP from JFK to Johannesburg via Abidjan or Monrovia. All of this became unprofitable by the late 80s so everything was dropped except for a JFK-Nairobi through Frankfurt. The FRA-Nairobi portion was operated with an A310 and went over to Delta as part of the 1991 European routes purchase; DL chose not to activate the FRA-NBO authority but I believe still has it today.
The interesting thing during the 70s was that Pan Am used to fly JFK to JNB via Rio (GIG) with a 707...those were the glory days...
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
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RE: Who Got Pan Am's AFrica/South America Routes

Tue Dec 25, 2001 7:56 am

If memory serves:

Panagra (Pan American Grace Airways) held the South American route system authorities from the mid 50s.

Braniff International bought them from Panagra.

Eastern Air Lines bought them from Braniff in 1982.

Amercan Airlines bought them from Eastern for $880 million in 1989.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Who Got Pan Am's AFrica/South America Routes

Tue Dec 25, 2001 12:26 pm

I am rather surprised that there is no US carrier presence in Africa, in particular NBO.

I can imagine in a few years if Nigeria is to able to recover from the political and economic problems that have plagued it for the last 2 decades, that several US carriers would be interested in launching a service to LOS. As many here are aware the current LHR(LGW)/LOS flights are rather profitable due to the high VFR numbers between Europe and Nigeria. No doubt many of these VFRs are connections on from the US. As Houston has the 2nd largest Nigerian population in the US, I can definetly see a possible IAH/LOS flight at some future date. Possibly a Nigerian carrier (WT), once they meet US {FAA} regs or even Continental with a possible IAH/LOS/JNB run.

Still as I stated earlier there are many obstacles to overcome so I am not holding my breath for these possible flights anytime soon.

As for PA's African flights, I concur with the others stating PA's extensive African service, in particular West Africa. I have several old flight skeds from the 70s and early 80s........indeed thoses were glorious days. Frankly, I somehow can not envision an AA 777/767 or DL 777/767 sitting at Jomo Kenyatta or Jan Smuts (is this name still being used ?)

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
The777Man
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RE: Who Got Pan Am's AFrica/South America Routes

Tue Dec 25, 2001 3:09 pm

VFR traffic is usually not profitable and I doubt they get enough traffic from the US to fill a flight from any US city. SA still flies NYC-LOS-JNB in conjunction with WT (Nigeria Airways) and that may well work. I don't see any US major flying to LOS for the foreseeable future, much less to NBO. NBO has lost a lof of service even by European carriers. AF, OA and LH has both stopped NBO in the last few years. BA and probably SR and KL still fly there. Not sure why so many carriers abdon NBO, but perhaps only tourist traffic and that is not profitable? Like to see UA fly JFK-GRU/GIG-JNB with a 777  Smile The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
MAH4546
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RE: Who Got Pan Am's AFrica/South America Routes

Tue Dec 25, 2001 3:14 pm

I would like UA to extend thier MIA-GIG route to South Africa. That would be great. Miami has the largest South African population in the world, outside of South Africa, of course. Though, it will never happen. The US-Africa market is weak, mainly because traffic is low and most people will just connect in Europe. Africa is, however, a HUGE cash cow to European carriers, especially KLM and Air France. But what Africa is to the European carriers, Latin America, especially under-developed markets like Haiti (okay, so Haiti is not Latin America) and Bolivia, is to US carriers (or at least AA and CO).
a.

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