UAL747
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Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 3:31 pm

I just read something that Buff wrote in another post and it made me think. Like he stated, he does not advocate racial profiling, but is it necessary? The enemy is trying to blend into society, so much that this latest incident involved and "arabic-looking" man with a passport that said his name was Richard Reid. Let's face it, most of these terrorist are of Arab decent. We all know that. They are out to kill us, and to harm Americans. It seems weird, and I hate to say it, but racial profiling seems the only other way to really hamper these people from attacking aircraft. I don't believe that every Arab is trying to cause harm, but people need to realize that it's not discrimination persay, but a means of protection for all passengers. I mean look at the fact as Buff stated them, an Arab guy, no bags, named Richard Reid, going to America. What do ya'll think?

UAL747
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
serge
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 3:43 pm

I highly agree with you UAL747.

It IS the only way to stop 'some' of possible future attacks IMO against airports and aircraft. I believe that not a whole lot has changed since 9-11 either, on one flight (although it was regional) my friends and I weren't screened or asked any questions about ANYTHING.. this was on the 9th of December this year.

I hope this AA 767 incident is another wake up call for airport security, they better not hit the snooze button again!

...Serge
 
trickijedi
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 3:51 pm

I just experienced this today. On the way back from LGA to ORD on United, a man who obviouslky looked Arab and was dressed in Arab garb was stopped before he boarded the plane. Shortly thereafter there was an announcement on the overhead speaker for "security to Gate so and so please". No one else was allowed to board at this time as the inspection was taking place. Eventually he was allowed to board and the entire process took about 10 minutes.

As the inspection was taking place I was thinking to myself, "I would probably be very pissed off if that happened to me!" But this guy took it very well - not one complaint out of his mouth and was fully cooperating with the authorities. On the one hand this has got to suck for this guy as well as other Arabs and Middle Easterners who are flying. I wonder how much of that they take personally and how much of that they could only take. But on the other hand, I understand that the public's protection is of the utmost importance and it would suck even more to have another air catastrophe happen.
Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
 
Guest

RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 4:30 pm

Well I'm for it, but it must be done politely and discreetly. Instead of overhead announcement for security, it should have been with walkie talkie.

Anyway, the one case for racial profiling is EL AL, they racial profile out their ass, but they also land every plane in one piece out their ass. So?
 
Jonathan L
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 4:40 pm

The latest culprit, as seen on CNN.com:


sigh


What else can we do to protect our airways?  Sad
 
carmy
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 4:44 pm

I don't know if you guys remember that in WW2, the US gathered up every single peace loving American of Japanese descent and sent them packing to camps and jails. That, if I remember correctly, was one of the most embarassing moments for the US. It was against everything the US had ever stood for, that it was the land of the free, that it welcomed all peoples of whatever background, and that it was a melting pot of different cultures. And now, you guys are actually suggesting a return to that? That Arabs and Middle Easterners should be subject to greater checks simply because of their race?

Tha very same country which accuses China of racial profiling in Tibet, of racial profiling in Kosovo, now has its citizens saying that racial profiling is necessary? I don't know, but it sure stinks of absolute hypocriscy and white supremacy to me.
 
Andreas
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Carmy, I'm Completely With You On This!...

Sun Dec 23, 2001 5:00 pm

...though I have several other reasons. It is the same as with this move of the USA to urge certain carriers to give away pax list in advance:
It looks good on CNN, it smells like"yes we are in charge and we bloody well know what we do", and, yes, it gives the chance to increase control over people just a little bit.
In the end, it's completely Bullsh.t. In terms of security it yields nothing, absolutely nothing, the next time they'll find another way to kill thousands of people. And if they want to go on using aircraft, well even there are other ways to gain control over an aircraft.
The USA are not used to this sort of violence, they haven't been experiencing it in their own country but for a few years. In other regions of the world, like former Yugoslavia, or Afghanistan, it's much easier to handle: Let the military take over and and shoot anyone who comes close and ask the corpse why he came close (that sounds rather cynic, but well...). That -fortunately- just doesn't work inside the USA.
So this time it's racial profiling, let's see what the hardliners come up with next time.
Merry Christmas to Singapore and anyplace else in the world from a very cold and snowy Berlin/Germany
Andreas
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
ben88
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 5:16 pm

Racial profiling, legal?
 
Andreas
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If You Are The Government..

Sun Dec 23, 2001 5:19 pm

...you just make it legal. As for international law: Well, the biggest bully on the schoolyard (I have that saying from an American!) couldn't care less for international law, if it doesn't suit him.
Regards
Andreas
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Superfly
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 5:28 pm

The answer to this whole problem is very simple.

Let pilots carry guns and put more sky marshals in every flight.
No need to racial profile.

Should every young white-male with short hair be searched before entering a Government building or even a high school?
Remember Oklahoma City or Columbine?  Insane
Bring back the Concorde
 
Superfly
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 5:55 pm

Baxter:
Was that supposed to be a joke?  Insane
So much for tourism in the USA.
Bring back the Concorde
 
BarfBag
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 6:00 pm

Excellent idea Baxter! The only ones allowed to remain should be American Indians and herds of bison.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Sun Dec 23, 2001 6:28 pm

Was the man behind the Oklahoma bombings of Asian descent? What about the various car bombs going off in Belfast? Were they set off by Asians? Nope.

Terrorism is a fact of life EVERYWHERE, and racial profiling is only going to further alienate the minorities.

Remember that couple of WHITE American and Australian were found to be members of the Taliban.

 
manni
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 1:03 am

Carmy and Andreas,

You're absolutely right, I agree with you both!

Baxter,

GROW UP!
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
ogseminole
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 1:05 am

Most flight crews have been "professionally profiled" since 9/11.
Every time we go thru security, at least one of us gets picked out and wanded and patted down.
We are being selected because of what we wear to work. Our uniforms.
If the minority of Arabs dressed in native garb have a problem with being selected, TOUGH!!
This is war folks and the old saying "All is fair in love and war" rings true.
Screw political correctness. It was fanatical Islamic creeps that brought us to this stage.
Profile them all.
 
cicadajet
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Japanese Vs Arab - No Comparison.

Mon Dec 24, 2001 5:29 am

By all means make the case for or against racial profiling in America, but it is NOT THE SAME THING as what happened to the JAPANESE in WW2.

1> There was NEVER ANY Evidence that the Japanese in the USA were involved in anything related to PEARL HARBOR. On the other hand, the Arabs that crashed the planes in the USA were living IN THE USA.

2> The Japanese Americans were CITIZENS.. the ARABS that crashed the planes in the USA were NOT.

3> The Japanese were put in Camps and their property essentially stolen. Do you really compare that to be racially profiled when getting on an airplane????
 
America West
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 5:57 am

Just keep all foreigners out of the United States and there wont be any problems like this again.

I was driving to school last month listening to the radio and some stupid woman called in saying that exact same thing.

First of all, like mentioned above, there goes tourism. Thousands of people will use their jobs, people will go broke, businesses will go bankrupt, should I go on?

Second of all, how many of us can say that we are 100% American Indian? We wouldn't be here if the US closed their borders a long time ago. Just about all Americans have some other sort of descent. Not to mention, that is what the US stands for!

...and there wont be any problems like this again.

Really? Did foreigners kill the kids at Columbine? Did an Arab cause the evacuation of ATL? After the Oklahoma City bombing, everyone thought that it was the work of some terrorist organization, and it turns out, it was one of our own people that thought he was some sort of "hero."

Baxter: I'm glad you're not president.
 
prosa
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 6:07 am

Latest reports say that Reid, or whatever his real name is, is Sri Lankan.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
jfidler
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 6:29 am

This is essentially the rationalization argument. It's not necessarily a bad one. But to put it in perspective, let's look at another area where racial profiling is said to occur in the U.S.: with blacks and crime.

In most large stores, the store employs undercover security guards who walk around to spot people who are shoplifting. Now imagine you had this position. The measure of your doing a good job is the number of people you catch who are stealing.

So, let's say you're watching the entrance to the store, and two people walk in and you want to follow one of them to see if they're stealing. One is a white woman, and the other is a black man. I bet nearly all security guards will follow the black man. Why? Because if you look at the statistics of who commits more crimes (rate, not number of people), it's black males who commit most of the crimes (I realize in my example, I confused the issue by comparing to a white female, but that's just to emphasize the disparity).

Now, you could say that because black males are always being watched and targeted, then that's why the arrest rate is so high (they're being watched and observed more). Maybe white males commit crimes at the same or higher rate, but just don't get caught because they aren't being observed as closely.

That's possible, but it doesn't apply when we look at the topic at hand: airline security (because you always know when the crime is committed because it results in an explosion/death/etc that's obvious). Let's look at all the airline-involved terrorist acts in the last two years, and there's a disproportionately high percentage of those commited by men of Middle Eastern descent.

So, if your goal as an airport security specialist is to stop as much terrorism as possible, then focusing on past data, you'll always target men of Middle Eastern descent.

This doesn't mean that people of other nationalities aren't capable of committing the same acts. But looking at past history, those of Middle Eastern descent do it at a disproportionately high rate.

I did a quick search on the web, and there's an interesting essay (with data) on racial profiling at: http://www.jeffsarchive.com/race/Race,%20Crime,%20and%20Violence.html
 
jm-airbus320
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 6:43 am

Boston Globe had banded it about that the guy on the AA flight was a Jamaican, are they for real? The most Jamaicans can be accused of is  Smokin cool. And that's as far as it goes. Down with racial profiling!!

Jm-airbus320
 
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yyz717
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 7:27 am

Racial profiling of Arabic people is unfortunately necessary, at least for the short term. It's realistically a small price to pay for the general complete freedom and high incomes that they otherwise enjoy in the US.

Incidently, before you do-gooders call me a white 'racist'....I'm a black Canadian.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ben88
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 7:34 am

OK, so you're a black racist.
 
etafilcon
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 7:36 am

I think it's a fact that racial profiling would be effective in preventing hijackings, but the effect of such things on society would be severe. Officially promoting racism would lead to a more and more divided world and this would actually work for the terrorists: in a world where "their people" get discriminated only for being "their people" it would be much easier for eg. al quaida to get committed people to their side.

There could maybe be some kind of a solution. The officials would use racial profiling but also offer a substantial compensation for the embarrasment to the people who get the "extra attention". Just an idea, your opinions?
 
ben88
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 7:41 am

Many Americans have died to protect our civil liberties. It's nice to see how easily you are all willing to throw them away. Just because we are at war does not mean that we throw everything out the window and everything goes. We have rules to follow, which is one of the reasons we are a civilized country. If we start profiling our own citizens, we are no better than a third rate facist country. Not very patriotic if you ask me...
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 7:45 am

Let's not forget that we have our own homegrown terrorists, who are/were white. Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, and current reports that the Anthrax scare was
quite possibly committed by a disgruntled US military personnel....however, the vicious and savage events of 9/11, the foiled but nonetheless scary experience on Flight 63 point to the fact that Osama's gift to the Arab world will be racial profiling.

I firmly believe that we are fighting a war against terrorism, against a nasty, primitive organization that has twisted Islam in an effort to bring legitimacy to its cause, not to mention members. Having said that, I am a frequent flyer, and I am saddened to say that the sight of a Middle Eastern looking person with no hand baggage, well dressed, clean shaven or not, is something worth looking into, for peace of mind. The alternative is much, much worse.

 
etafilcon
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 7:46 am

Ben88 - I suppose your comments were for me? I'm sorry I guess I sounded too pro-profiling. I'm strongly against it basicly because of the reasons you named.

The compensation thing was just something that came in to my mind, I really would like to hear your opinions on it. The main question I think is, can such discrimination be compensated at all?
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 7:56 am

Right now National Security is more important than Political Correctness.



In the United States "Richard Reid" would have really turned some heads if he got on a plane, look in that picture above at how he is dressed, he does fit the profile of a STEREOTYPED terrorist with the hat like that and the beard.

My buddies dad is Lebonese and he was searched at DTW, he claims it was a random search, we think different. He himself said that the fact then if they search Arabic looking people he feels safer and he is Arabic, but he also said that U.S. should deport Arabs that weren't born here. He is an Arab that was born here.


But seriously, what is more important right now? The ACLU or our safety? Everyone is getting penalized because of this, not just arabs. 80 year old white grannies now have to take their shoes off to get searched at the airport. My neighbor who is 70 had her nail file confiscated and she does not look Arabic one bit.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 7:57 am

If you're arab, and are racially "profiled" by security before your flight, then don't be pissed off at the airlines and security, be pissed off the the terrorists who caused it to happen. I think risking offending somebody is better than possibly risking a couple hundred lives!! Profling happens everywhere. Look at car insurance, if you're a young guy then your insurance is going to cost more than if you were a girl because statistically young guys get in the most accidents. There you go, same sort of concept: Statistically arabs blow up or crash planes on purpous more than anybody else so therefore....need I explain?

Regards,
Kris from YYC

P.S. Yyz717 is NOT a racist, he just tells it like it is. Don't like it? Tough. Life sucks, get a f*cking helmet.
 
etafilcon
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 8:06 am

"P.S. Yyz717 is NOT a racist, he just tells it like it is."

I just hate these kind of comments SO much. His comments are racist in the only true sense of the word, discriminating people based on their race. Why don't you just admit that you think racism should be allowed in this situation?
 
b757300
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 8:12 am

It is sad but in the world we live in today, it is necessary. If many of the hijackers and suicide bombers were not Middle Eastern, it would not be necessary.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 8:12 am

Profiling happens everywhere.

In this case it is more legit due to national security.

For the most part I am against profiling because I doubt 3 african american guys in a car in the suburbs after 1 am is a risk to national security, nor is the 16 year old behind the wheel of a car.

But a guy who gets on a plane with a beard and a hat like he wore without checking any luggage and using an obviously false name (come on, he does not look like a Richard Reid), i think profiling is neccessary that way.

 
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yyz717
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 8:14 am

Ben88 and Etafilcon, you guys are well-meaning but incredibly naive. Calling someone (such as me) a 'racist' simply because I support racial-profiling is a quantum leap if ever I have heard one. Racial profiling does not equate to racism.

If you guys can't debate in a civilized fashion and can't show respect for contrary opinions, perhaps you should not participate on thus forum.

Kris....thanks for your support buddy.

Neil


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
etafilcon
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 8:23 am

"If you guys can't debate in a civilized fashion and can't show respect for contrary opinions, perhaps you should not participate on thus forum."

I don't think I have said anything uncivilized or have I? I think you do have the right to your opinion just like I do. I think saying "I hate these kinds of comments" is still very civilized. "Tough. Life sucks, get a f*cking helmet." as Kris said is not.

In my opinion racial profiling is by definition racist, feel free to disagree.
 
b757300
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 8:23 am

I forgot to add this. It is necessary @ the airport but not in the entire country. No one forces you to go to the airport and be subjected to the security procedures.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
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yyz717
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 8:39 am

You are correct Etafilcon...you did not call me a racist. But you went on to say "why don't you just admit that racism is allowed on this column".....not very nice!

Anyway, this topic is worthy of discussion, just not arguing or name calling.

Regards
Neil
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Skymonster
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 8:40 am

If you take the profiling approach, sooner or later these groups are going to get some non-Arab sympathisers on board who will do their bidding - such folks will not be profiled. Are we really saying that Arabs should be subject to greater security checks than anyone else?

Racial profiling is NOT the answer - proper and thorough ecurity checks on ALL passengers is the answer. If it isn't possible to do proper security checks on all passengers, planes shouldn't be flying.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
etafilcon
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 8:48 am

Yyz717, I agree this is a very interesting topic and we should not go into name calling. I have a lot of respect for someone who can discuss a thing like this even if his opinions are very different from mine.

Anyway, let's not make this discussion "the definition of the word 'racist'" but keep on talking about racial profiling =)
 
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yyz717
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 8:58 am

Agreed Etafilcon!

 Smile

Neil
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ben88
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 9:07 am

I think the main problem here is that we have different definitions of racism, and we will probably never agree. Racial profiling is by definition racist, because you are selecting a person for differential treatment based on race or ethnicity alone. What happens when a John Walker wannabee wants to bomb a plane in the name of Allah? Selecting people of middle eastern descent for increased scrutiny is about as effective as stealing nail clippers from the elderly.
 
etafilcon
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 9:13 am

Ben88, I think that profiling is in fact effective, but the side effects are very, very bad and can actually result in more terrorism. My point is that it may be effective in a time scale of some months, but in the long run it would probably turn against itself.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 9:13 am

There are many different definitions of racism Ben88, no one is exactly correct. Whatever your opinion, I respect your right to have one, whether I agree or not. Just don't go calling people 'racist'. It's an insult that's hurled about far too much and degrades from the underlying issue. It also shows you off as a hot-head, whether you are or not.

Regards
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ben88
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 9:14 am

Whether or not it's effective is not really the point. The question is are you willing to give up your freedoms for increased security? I'm not.
 
etafilcon
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 9:24 am

So you think that for example my father, a finnish born nokia executive should not be allowed to travel. Farewell to the US economy then.
 
ben88
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 9:24 am

What about second generation Arabs, are they ok? Yyz717 is Baxter a racist?
 
baxter
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 9:28 am

Etafilcon, if your father was born in Finland he should stay in Finland. He has no business in America during a time of war, and if he still wants to come here he needs to understand that there will be restrictions.
 
ben88
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 9:29 am

lol who's Jason Seiple? He actually respects this guy.
 
etafilcon
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 9:32 am

Baxter, I'm speechless. I'm glad you represent a tiny fraction of the U.S. population.
 
Thumper
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Jfidler

Mon Dec 24, 2001 9:36 am

Dont often reply to posts like this but for a young man you are closer to the truth than any of them! After reading most of the posts buy young men on this site its nice to see someone who has intelligence instead of the usual blowhards!
 
goingboeing
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 9:44 am

Enough of the touchy feely we-don't-want-to-offend-anyone political correctness. Four airliners and 5,000 lives were lost and the people responsible all shared the same racial profile. Then we have yet another who tries to blow a plane out of the sky - fits the same profile.

Does anybody here think that El-Al doesn't scrutinize passengers of Arab descent more than others? Yep, you lose some "freedoms" if you're of middle Eastern descent. Would you feel any better if you weren't scrutinized, and neither was the other person of mid-East descent who gets on board your plane with the intention of taking down the plane?

If the 9/11 hijackers were 6'3" Blond haired, blue eyed Swedes, then I'd want all of THEM checked - IF THEY FIT A FREAKING PROFILE!

As it is now, we're almost encouraged to only give mid Easterners a cursory glance, lest we be accused of "Profiling". It's called "life" and in life, feelings are sometimes hurt. It's far better to be safe than to endager lives because we don't want to hurt anyones feelings.
 
Super Em
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RE: Racial Profiling, Necessary?

Mon Dec 24, 2001 9:57 am

How would one describe a suspicious looking passenger? Lets not forget that these terrorists are part of a network. They can appear in any shape or form. Keep an eye out for anyone.

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