USAirways737
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Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 12:24 pm

British Airways flies to almost every major American city(Atlanta, Houston, San Diego, Baltimore, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Miami, Seattle, Boston, Tampa, Charlotte, New York - JFK, Chicago, Newark Nj, Dallas/Fort Worth, Orlando, Washington - Dulles, Denver, Philadelphia, Detroit, and Phoenix.)
except MSP. BA even flies to Charlotte which is less than half the size of the MSP area. Is there something I am missing here? When are we going to get to experience the "worlds favourite airline"?

Erik in MSP
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 12:30 pm

Does BA fly to Tampa? This doesnt seem to suit their business model really. Is Tampa a large city and is it a business destination too?

ciao
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 12:31 pm

Yes, BA flies to Tampa with a 777.
a.
 
USAirways737
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 12:32 pm

I copied the cities right from ba.com so it should be right.

Erik in MSP
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 12:36 pm

Thanx mah4546, i didnt even think they would warrent service, but obviously there is a market. how many times weekly?

ciao
 
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yyz717
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:14 pm

MSP is actually the largest US market that BA does not serve.

No doubt a big reason is the absolute stranglehold that NW has on the MSP market. Not sure what other factors contribute.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
PacificFlyer
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:17 pm

Tampa is quite a large city, seems like the second largest from Miami in Florida. Correct me if I'm wrong though!
 
ILS
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:20 pm

Simple. There are obvously no Brits and no business demand to go to England in Minnesota.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:27 pm

NW does serve MSP-LGW with a daily DC-10.

BA's TPA service is currently thrice a week. TPA is a fairly large market of 2.3M people, second largest in Florida, and there are strong tourist and business ties with Tampa and Britain.
a.
 
5280AGL
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:28 pm

There is plenty of demand in the Twin Cities for such a service. You do realize that NW flies there from MSP, right? Hell, if they can fly to Charlotte, which is a microbe compared to the Twin Cities, they could fly to MSP...The only problem is NWA, which is why no other european and asian airlines fly there as well, except KLM which doesn't count.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:34 pm

The NW hold on MSP arguably keeps other airlines from offering intl service. Similar to other fortress hubs such as PHL, PIT, CLT, DEN, MEM. While some of these get BA service, they don'y get much else.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Continental
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:48 pm

That's true, NWA does serve England from here in MSP. BUT! BA has many other US destinations that offers much more different destinations and with more airlines! MSP-LHR, GTW route is doing great, I think at parts of the year it is operated with a 747. I heard last year that BA was talking about MSP service, it'd be great to see BA here in MSP.

ILS: There are tons of BRITS here in MN, there are a couple of BRITS across the street! There are plenty BRIT owned companies around here!

Continental
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:49 pm

Continental, you mean MSP-LGW. MSP-LHR cannot be flown under Bermuda II.
a.
 
zeus01
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:50 pm

There is another European airline that flies to MSP.....
Iceland Air. I know. BA (which i don't like anyway) doesn't fly to North America's 7th busiest airport, yet they fly to Tampa and Charlottle.
Before anyone else says their is no market in MSP...don't. Look at the amount of fortune 500 companies here compared Tampa, San Dieago, or Charlotte. ANyway, THe Minneapolis Airport Comission has even said that NW's stronghold has resulted in many airlines from flying out of here including BA, LH and Southwest. But, LH has been trying pretty hard to get in.
 
USAirways737
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 2:11 pm

It would be great to see LH. We would possibly be able to see a A340 for once! But a BA 777 would be better.

On another note, what makes NW so feared. Every airline uses pricing and capacity changes when a new airline comes around so why is this such a problem when dealing w/NW? BA already competes against NW in DTW, so why is MSP so much different?

Erik in MSP
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 2:17 pm

USAirways737, BA has been at DTW for a long time, plus DTW is a market double the size of MSP. Despite that, BA's DTW flights are only a 763, but they are profitable because DTW is an LHR city (and in some ways, they don't compete with NW, which is DTW-LGW). I do think that there is a market for BA at MSP, though. MSP is not the only airport that suffers. Look at ATL and all the airlines they have lost as DL grew (some were lost because they ended DL codeshares). Varig, JAL, Austrian, and Sabena. And just this year, Swissair and KLM. Plus Lufthansa and British Airways have decreased service over the years (BA from 2 to 1 daily and LH from 7 to 6 a week with smaller 342s). DTW does not have many foreign airlines either. Just BA and LH.
a.
 
zobatc
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 2:23 pm

Well, BA pulled out of PIT, and the damn plane was full daily (B763), how can CLT support a BA 777 and a US flight to LGW?? I don't get it...there isn't THAT much in CLT....
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 2:25 pm

Zobatc, BA's CLT service is with a 767-300ER. Why do you think the CLT flight is via BWI?
a.
 
thomacf
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 3:46 pm

BA doesn't serve CLE and that is a much more populated metro area than MSP. They also don't fly to markets around the size of MSP like STL, Kansas City and Indianapolis.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 4:03 pm

That is true, CLE is larger than MSP, but not by much (MSP is 2.76M growing at a rate 4 times that of CLE, which is 2.90M). MSP also has a much larger business community. STL is slightly smaller than MSP (2.51M), but MCI (1.69M) and IND (1.49M) don't compare.
a.
 
thomacf
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 4:16 pm

My post didn't all get in. I am assuming when you mean market size you mean population. There are other cities that are about the same size that I didn't mention like Columbus, New Orleans, Nashville and Memphis. Just because MSP has fortune 500 companies headquarter in the area doesn't mean that they have strong ties to the London market. I am form CLE and have thought the same thing and feel your pain. The Cleveland-Akron-Canton-Lorain area is huge and is bigger and more populated than the MSP area but the demand isn't there and what is there is handled by CO and that appears to only be seasonal. NW handles the demand in MSP and most of that demand i'm betting is connecting traffic. We had the American headquarters of BP here in CLE and the world headquarters is in London and it took 15 years since BP came here to get a nonstop flight. Some of those cities that I mentioned aren't hubs and that is another reason why they don't have BA service. Just because they have around the same poplation doesn't mean that alot of people need to go to Europe and will fill a nonstop BA widebody on a daily basis. Some of those cities like Tampa, Miami and San Diego get the service because they are big tourist areas.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 4:27 pm

Thomacf, MIA has BA service to London (which is BA's third most popular US destination) because South Florida is a market of 5.1M people with huge ties to Europe. Miami-London is a major business route and a huge money maker for AA, BA, as well as VS (although VS transports mainly tourists). You also have no idea about market sizes. New Orleans is 1.285M, Nashville is 1.11M, Memphis is 1.07M, Columbus is 1.34M. None of those compare to Minneapolis. The fact is that MSP has closer ties to Europe than CLE and is a much more suited market for BA service than CLE.
a.
 
mick
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 6:40 pm

Its got nothing to do with market size - its all politics - its all Bermuda II
 
aussiestu
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 6:47 pm


Has any major European airline ever served MSP? Just for interest sakes.......
 
HUYfan
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 8:42 pm

there are a few points to clear up on this topic.
1. Minneapolis is one of the world hubs for KLM and Northwest, there are 2, 3 daily in summer flights between amsterdam and msp. The AMS end feeds a lot of pax from KLM uk flights, therefore, in theory, the UK-MSP market, along with NWs own LGW service is amply covered. Do not underestimate reluctance to switch carriers, for example, if a passenger in Bristol, Teesside or Humberside wanted to get to MSP, would they take the arduous road journey to LGW to connect with expensive BA, or would they take a hop accross to AMS and connect there, yes they would, and DO.

2. Detroit is also served by KLM, and in the high summer, there are 5 return dailies between DTW and AMS, op by KL/NW. Condor also fly there in the summer.

3. BAs Tampa service has a very high load factor, in my experience, those 300+ seats are always full, and it has puzzled me as to why the frequency has not been increased on the route.

4. All this talk of smaller markets, they are not served by BA, because, they can only really support one transatlantic service a day, if that. For example, BA dont fly to MEM, because of the daily KLM M11 to Ams, and because, without a tie-up with NW, there are very few connecting flights out of MEM. The same can be said for CLE, CO operate a daily LGW 752, summer only at the moment, and again, there is a lack of options for connecting pax out of CLE.

i appreciate that the population of MSP is large, and personally, i believe that a daily BA 763 could be a success, BUT, sep 11th has had a severe impact on travel between the states and europe, and i think it will be quite some time before the market gets back into its growth spurt.

regards
 
BestWestern
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 9:50 pm

In winter, the MSP kings, NW cant even fill daily DC-10's to LGW, even with all their feed into the airport.

How do you expect BA to make money on this route?
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
Guest

RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 9:56 pm

Charlotte is the second largest banking center in he United States after NYC. That means they are ahead of Dallas, Atlanta, Chicago, San Francisco, etc.

Who's to say that BA's next N. American destination will be in the United States. Monterrey, Mexico (yes, south of the Rio Grande) stands a good chance in the coming years of being linked to Europe (without going to IAH). Population 3.1M with a huge industrial base and an ever-expanding middle and upper class population.
 
Andie007
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Thu Dec 27, 2001 9:58 pm

Condor does not serve DTW any more!
---
But why isn't AIR FRANCE serving this route. There are lots of french origins in this region, aren't they?
 
usairways85
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Fri Dec 28, 2001 12:26 am

here in philly although we get 2 ba flights a day, that is about it. 1 other lufthansa flight and air france flight. with about 8 usairways international flights. it isnt a lot at all.
 
5280AGL
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Fri Dec 28, 2001 1:39 am

I guess since Charlotte is the second larget banking center in the country, that means that Hartford and Des Moines, which are the #1 and #2 insurance centers in the U.S. should get BA service as well? Afterall, there would be a larger demand since London is #4 in the world in insurance? ha....  Smile
 
HUYfan
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Fri Dec 28, 2001 1:48 am

Condor serve DTW on a weekly basis, from MUC in the summer ONLY. They are scheduled to operate a tuesday rotation this coming summer!!!
 
Continental
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Fri Dec 28, 2001 1:51 am

First off, yes Aussiestu, Europeon airlines did and still do serve MSP. KLM, and Icelandair. LH had MSP service a long time ago though. Why would it be hard to compete with NWA for LH to fly to Germany? NWA doesn't serve any destinations in Germany from MSP. LH could easily get in. Tourism doesn't matter, not just people around the MSP area would fly LH, people all around the surrounding states and the whole US would connect here and MSP, then switch to LH to Germany. I sure hope LH flies here to MSP, it'd be good to see a good ol' A340-300 or 747-400 lift off in LH colors! (Even though we don't see the A340-300 here in MSP anyway!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Continental
MSP
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Fri Dec 28, 2001 1:54 am

BA has been serving Detroit back when Willow Run was the main passenger airport in the 50's. BA used to fill 744's and 772's to Detroit before Sept 11, but now only use a 763.

The reason I think BA serves Tampa is more for Holiday travellers rather than business. A lot of Brits go to nearby Sarasota in the winter and the Tampa area beaches. I went on a boat tour last may around Sarasota Bay and I was the only American, everyone else was British.

It's not all business that would bring an airline to your city. True Lufthansa started regularly serving DTW after the Daimler Chrysler merger, but there are tons of Japanese businesses in Detroit but the only Japan service is on Northwest, not Japan Air or ANA.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Fri Dec 28, 2001 1:57 am

I can't see Monterrey Mexico ever getting BA service. JPGR, you mention it has a 3.1M population...and it may be Mexico's industrial city....but it's also a poor 3rd-world city...BA would only fly there if it was a signif holiday destination or a capital city (with diplomatic traffic).

As for DTW, the only French influence left is the origin of the name. There are no special economic or cultural ties with France.

As for why CLT does get BA service, but MSP and Hartford do not.....there are many reasons....does that city already have a fortress hub? City population, catchment area, nearby intl airports. There are many reasons.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
zeus01
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Fri Dec 28, 2001 6:21 am

When was the last time airlines flew to a city purley based on population? CLE the city is larger than Minneapolis and St. Paul, but with surrounding area, according to the US Census Beura, MSP area is larger, plus MSP serves 5 states (Iowa, N and S Dakota, Wisonson) as a major airport.
So after seeing this, we I think can conclude that BA doesn't go to cleveland for population size. As well as Monteray. Id bet that 80% of the poplulation lives in a slum, at least they did when I was there in 1997. The upper class of mexico, which almost is a oxy moron, is almost none. Industry? Not the kind that brings British businessmen in unless their looking for knock off clothes or tortillas.
LH used to serve MSP, and is still trying to get in. Iceland air is here. I don't know why, their 752 is always full though. And, some say NW can't fill thier DC-10 to lgw in the winter, ummmm, wrong. That flight according to NW has a 97.9% passenger factor. Seems pretty full to me. But who the hell wants to come to MSP in the winter anyway.
Econmy wise, DTW is NOT twice the size of MSP. DTW's only industry anyway is NWA and Automobiles. MSP on the other hand has many other smaller industries, and according to forbes, is a "economical powerhouse for the North" CLE, are you trying to compare that industry to MSP? THats a joke.
SO, even though the Minneapolis Airport Commission has said its NW who keeps lots of airliens out, poeple who don't live in MSP or know anything about it continue to spout off crap. O well
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Fri Dec 28, 2001 6:27 am

CLT is a major banking centre, but pretty much domestic (BoA's main interantional operations are out of New York City, San Fran, and Miami). None the less, BA still can't fill up flights out of CLT. The flight is a 763 and it is not even non-stop (via Baltimore).
a.
 
Guest

RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Fri Dec 28, 2001 9:14 am

A BIG reason why British Airways dosen't fly to MSP is the simple fact that Northwest and KLM virtually dominate the international market there, like BA and AA in London Heathrow. So you could say BA is getting a taste of their own tactics(the whole BA/AA thing) with respect to the situation in MSP.
 
ScottB
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Fri Dec 28, 2001 9:31 am

I believe the stop at BWI from CLT on BA is likely a result of the decline in transatlantic traffic post 9/11. But BA is most likely in Charlotte as a remnant of their old alliance with US Airways. While the alliance is gone, the CLT flight was likely profitable enough that BA decided to continue it. The discontinued PIT flight just couldn't make it without feed from US.

But, as others have said, BA has probably stayed out of the LGW-MSP market simply because there's not enough money to be made competing directly against Northwest's service. In many of the smaller markets listed (i.e. SAN, PHX, DEN, TPA, BWI, SEA, MCO) BA faces little or no competition to London.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Fri Dec 28, 2001 9:49 am

Scotb, yes, it was after 9.11, but downgrading from a non-stop 777-200 to a one-stop 767-300 via another city? Doesn't that say someting on how poor a route performs? I am curious, though, what is your definition of a small market? I would not call BWI (which is the Washington market, 4th largest), PHX, or SEA small.
a.
 
afitch7881
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Fri Dec 28, 2001 5:24 pm

BA actually looked into BDL in the earl;y 90's but the recession caused them to back out. I would think a city like BDL, CMH, MSP would be next to get a carrier like BA. PHX I believe will be the next city to get a new international mainline carrier, AF!



Eric

 
Andie007
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RE: HUYfan

Fri Dec 28, 2001 6:16 pm

Any source for the Condor flight to DTW?
It is mentioned nowhere. (amadeus.net / Condor.de / lufthansa.com / german forums)
---
Lufthansa used Condor B767 in the past on routes like FRA-DTW and BKK-SYD.
But Condor itself to DTW?
 
aussiestu
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Fri Dec 28, 2001 7:03 pm


Thanks Continental. I did not know that Icelandiar flew to MSP. Most passengers probably connect onto their European services. A great little airline to fly with!!! As for KLM/NW they have this market completely sewn up?
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Sat Dec 29, 2001 2:01 am

Aussiestu, actually, I believe Minneapolis and Minnesota in general have America's largest Icelandic population. Someone correct me if I am wrong. If not the largest, it is one of the largest. I know Minnesota has a large Norweigan population (though NW's MSP-OSL flights lasted only a year).
a.
 
zeus01
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Cultures Of MSP

Sat Dec 29, 2001 3:13 am

Minnesota consist mainly of German backround. You will find almsot no one with out a little german in them, though there also is a huge Scandinavian backround. Icelaniic? I don't know. But lots of scandanacians andgermans and me the Italian.
Oh yes, and Hmungs, or I bileve they are from Cambodia. Minnesota has the largest peoplulation of this asian people group in the US.
 
thomasphoto60
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RE:Cultures Of MSP

Sat Dec 29, 2001 4:31 am

David (Zeus).....German ?!

If that is the case then why is the NFL team called the 'VIKINGS' ? Indeed Minnesota's primary ethnic background is Scandnavian. My mother is from Minnesota and she is of Danish and Norweigen hertaige. I also use to live in Minneapolis and I remember bumping into more Olafs or Svens with last names like Bjugstead or Frandsen, ect.....than ones with Germans surnames. That is not to say that there is not some German influence, but the influences of Norway, Sweden and Denmark prevail there.

Indeed Minnesoata has a sizable Asian population (especially Laotian Hmongs) but it hardly has the largest Asian population in the US. I am almost certain that that honour goes to California, Hawaii, Texas and NY.

Frankly I have always wondered why SAS had no flights to CPH or ARN from MSP.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
zeus01
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Thomasphoto60

Sat Dec 29, 2001 5:14 am

To clear up a few things:
I didn't say MSP had the largest Asian population. I said it had the largest Hmong population. Which it does.
Obiciously you don't know central and southern minnesota to well. Find 10 town with a scandinavian name. I can find 300 wiht a german name, New Ulm, St. Bonificous, Friedrich, and the list goes on. If youd like, ill make a longer list. Northern Minnesota on the other hand has a large scandinavian poplulation. but the german one still is larger, according to my Minnesota history class last year in high school. I don't think theyre giving me wrong facts.
Last names don't mean much anymore. For instance, there;s tons of scandinavian/german mixes.
The Vikings football team name doesn't mean thats the greats influx of people groups. You really shouldn't base that off a football teams name. I can get you lots more facts if you like. Northern Minnesota is primarily Scandiavian, but that only makes up for less than 1/4 the poplulation.
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Sat Dec 29, 2001 6:36 am

David

I stand corrected on the Hmong remark. I should have read it a little more carefully. As to the German v Scandi issue, well, I stand by my remarks....though I will concede that it has been some time since I lived up there and perhaps in the last 20 or so years things have changed. But,un like you, I was drilled in H.S. about MN's Scandanavian and N.European lienage and history.

Perhaps you are correct that one should not judge a town or a city and it's ethnicity based on a sports franchise, but you must admit to some extent the team's name is often (though not always) reflective of the local culture and or influences.

Thomas

P.S. if you care to discuss this issue personally (as this really is not aviation related) with me my name and e-mail are in my proflie.
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
ScottB
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Sat Dec 29, 2001 7:02 am

Mah4546-

Recall that the present situation (the post-9/11 industry and recession) has brought significant changes to the industry and to transatlantic travel. When you add together the dramatic fall in transatlantic travel due to the terrorist attacks, recession-related decreases in business travel in the U.S., and the general lower demand for transatlantic flights during the winter low season, it doesn't surprise me that BWI and CLT are now served by a single 767-300 from BA. Don't forget that the 777-200 on the CLT route may have been reallocated to a route formerly served by a 747-400.

While BWI does serve the large Washington market, the vast majority of international traffic in the market goes to Dulles. Aer Lingus pulled out of BWI; the only transatlantic service there is now offered by BA, Icelandair, and Ghana Airways. PHX is a large travel market, but hasn't historically had many flights to Europe. Same for SEA.
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Why No BA In Msp?

Sat Dec 29, 2001 7:24 am

Remember back when BA used 757s to the USA? I am sure they can make success with a 757 on LHR-BDL... or maybe if customs are built at LGA... LGA-LHR (hahah)
Does the 757 have range for London-Minneapolis?

twa902 chicago
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Twa902fly

Sat Dec 29, 2001 7:29 am

From what i know I dont think the 757 has enough range for London-Minneapolis. Its about 4,700 miles and the 757 has a 4,000 mile range. Someone correct me if i'm wrong though.

Regards
Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!