TOMASKEMPNER
Topic Author
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Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sat Dec 29, 2001 4:17 pm

Source : Delta.com

Atlanta, Dec. 21, 2001 -- Delta Air Lines (NYSE:DAL) filed comments yesterday with the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) expressing support for the Justice Departments (DOJs) determination that the proposed American Airlines - British Airways alliance cannot be approved without large scale slot and facility divestitures at Londons Heathrow Airport.

According to Delta, this weeks Department of Justice filing for DOT confirms that the

American - British Airways alliance cannot be approved unless conditions are imposed to remedy the competitive harm that will be caused by the alliance. The DOJ submission validates Deltas position that the AA/BA combination would have disastrous consequences for consumers unless large-scale slot divestitures are included as part of any remedial conditions.

"If anything, the competitive situation in London has become worse since the Justice Departments review of the alliance in 1998," according to Scott Yohe, Deltas senior vice president - Government Affairs.

DOJ has confirmed once again that competitive access to slots, gates, and airport facilities at London-Heathrow Airport is virtually impossible, and a very substantial number of Heathrow slots and facilities must be divested to prevent consumer harm that would result from a combination of the two largest U.S.-London competitors.

"Without substantial divestitures of London Heathrow slots and gates, the British Airways/American partnership should be disapproved for the same reasons it was rejected by regulators four years ago," said Yohe.

The DOJ, refuting claims of American and British Airways, found that:

* Capacity and pricing in US-London markets is severely restricted

* For a liberalized US-UK bilateral agreement to be meaningful, it must be accompanied by substantial US carrier access to London

Heathrow

* Entry into the London Heathrow Airport is severely restricted

It is very difficult for US airlines to obtain London Heathrow slots

It is unlikely that US carriers can obtain London Heathrow slots from European alliance partners

In addition, London Heathrow gates and facilities are very scarce

* US flights to London Gatwick are not a substitute for US flights to London Heathrow

* If DOT cannot impose London Heathrow conditions to remedy these harms, DOJ would oppose the AA/BA alliance

Delta said DOJs proposed remedies address two separate, yet equally important objectives:

· First, to remedy discrete competitive harms in the New York-Heathrow and Boston-Heathrow markets, the Justice Department recommends that DOT require the divestiture of 126 weekly Heathrow slots and related facilities so that competitors can operate seven additional New York-Heathrow flights (98 slots) and two new Boston-Heathrow flights (28 slots). Delta asked DOT for release of 56 slots for four daily round-trips for New York- Heathrow and 28 slots for two daily round-trips for Boston - Heathrow services.

* Second, for consumers across the United States to realize the true benefits of a liberalized US-UK aviation bilateral agreement, the Justice Department recommends that DOT require the divestiture of additional Heathrow slots and facilities to ensure there will be a net gain in consumer benefits as part of any new US-UK aviation treaty. Although the Justice Department did not identify a specific number of slot divestitures that would satisfy this requirement, Delta said that DOJ in 1998 determined that the AA/BA alliance would need to give up 336 weekly Heathrow slots (equivalent to 24 daily round-trip Heathrow-US flights) to balance the harm caused by formation of their imposing alliance. Delta asked DOT for release of 42 slots for three daily round-trips for Atlanta- Heathrow and 28 slots for two daily round-trips for Cincinnati - Heathrow services.

In its filing, Delta said that British Airways and American should release a minimum of 504 weekly slots to competitors, with 154 of those slots - the equivalent of 11 daily round-trip flights - allotted to Delta. Delta said that without such divestitures AA/BA will stifle competition on most U.S.-London routes.


Imagine if DL gets those 504 weekly slots, they are already No.1 transatlantic airline, with access to LHR they´ll be a pain in the ass to AA, UA and many others, plus the alliances with AF and AZ.

My guess , if they get the slots, (something almost impossible), is that DL should be ordering more 777-200ER

 
SESGDL
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sat Dec 29, 2001 4:23 pm

I agree! That would be great to see Delta kicking the other carriers butts. Delta would be unstoppable then! GO Delta!
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24596
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sat Dec 29, 2001 4:29 pm

It would be nice, but hell will freeze over first. If DL ever gets accsess to LHR I could definitley see JFK-LHR, BOS-LHR, and FLL-LHR. ATL and CVG too, if they were opened up to LHR. AA/BA will take over  Smile/happy/getting dizzy.
a.
 
watewate
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sat Dec 29, 2001 4:39 pm

What good is access if there's no slot leftover for new entrants? If LHR is opened for competition, substantial number of slots must be made available for other carriers to have a meaningful effect.
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sat Dec 29, 2001 4:54 pm

maybe they can open up some slots at like 2AM i am sure Delta passengers would go to LHR instead of LGW for that

twa902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
aussiestu
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sat Dec 29, 2001 5:38 pm


A 2AM slot is probably all they will get. Where do they expect to get 504 slots. BA/AA are certainly not going to hand over any big slot allocation. And then there is the problem with gates and facilities. There is no space at LHR and yet they want to operate here. Yeah right!!!!
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sat Dec 29, 2001 11:57 pm

Delta is already a massive airline over the atlantic, just imagine if they did get the LHR slots (which i think they will) then they are going to be one hell of a force to everyone else. Personally i'm waiting to see the likes of Delta, Northwest, continental and US airways getting into heathrow. Just look at the fares BA and AA impose on passengers even economy class. But if the bermuda 2 agreement is cancelled and open skies agreed, then i can maybe see the ticket prices go down a bit.

Regards
Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Dec 30, 2001 12:02 am

CO has said in the past that if it gets access to LHR, it would run 6 daily EWR-LHR nonstops, while keeping the 2 EWR-LGW nonstops; it would run 4 IAH-LHR nonstops, and 1 IAH-LGW nonstop, and it would run two CLE-LHR nonstops, and scrap CLE-LGW altogether.

So it isn't just DL that would benefit from this situation.
 
777gk
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Dec 30, 2001 12:09 am

Thats correct, Alpha 1.

I also recall hearing the possibility of FLL-LHR (assuming Bermuda II is scrapped) with a 752 for us out of our new concourse at FLL.
 
aamd11
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Dec 30, 2001 12:29 am

US carriers should not be allowed so much access. Granted it will help competition (a good thing) but US carriers are know for flying small a/c over the atlantic...
BA uses 747-400s and 777-200s to JFK from LHR... UA uses 767s and 777s... and they complain they dont get enough slots... get real, they have all the slots they need, if they used LARGER a/c they would be able to carry twice as many people.
Virigin in the future will be using A380s... with 550 pax... compared to the 777s UA Flies carrying ?320?

I dont see what their problem is there...
And if the US airlines get slots then the British airlines will require many more slots in the US gateways, none of which is mentioned above.....
 
gkirk
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Dec 30, 2001 12:43 am

Only 1 more US airline would be allowed into LHR as BMI would be from the British side. If US airlines do get into LHR i dont see why BA/AA, should give up any of their slots up.
Remember, there are two sides in this argument, if both dont agree on things, nothing happens..
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
codc10
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Dec 30, 2001 12:46 am

The reality is that not many of our airports are slot-controlled, and for a British airline to be allowed more flights out of one of our airports, well, that could be facilitated quickly if need be.

The reason I say "if need be" is because BA and VS fly to as many US destinations as they want to right now. I don't see a need for BA to serve Sarasota, FL or Long Beach, CA. I guess what I am trying to say is that BA and VS (BA in particular) flies to all the US destinations it needs to, and does not have a large demand to serve any more cities, so that should not become a stipulation in the final agreement (if one ever comes).

As for the smaller aircraft, notice that the majority of US airlines are relegated to serving Gatwick, and perhaps cannot fill two 744s each day on the route, so in order to make money, the airline runs 3 767s at different times of the day and is able to fill them. It's all about economics, and if a carrier finds that the demand exists to fill 4 747-400s on a London flight, they will use the 744.. But by the same token, if money can't be made with the 747, those same routes will be operated by the next smaller aircraft that can make money.

Either way, the point of aircraft size is moot and irrelevant.

(sorry if I wasn't clear there, my mind was going 100mph and I may have made the meaning a little foggy, it still is early in the morning!)
 
ripcordd
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Dec 30, 2001 12:48 am

Well maybe if Airfrance gives somes slots to delta and klm to northwest they both could fly into LHR. KLM and Airfrance have plenty of slots. KLM & Airfrance could just use larger aircraft.......
 
eg777er
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Dec 30, 2001 1:06 am

I'll say what Lord Marshall, then CEO of British Airways, said when AA wanted to fly to LHR, back in the early 1990s:

"American is a jolly-come-lately, and Heathrow is a very crowded airport".

The same now applies to DL, NW, US etc.

Until 2005/6, when the first phase of T5 opens, there will be no room for Delta - it's not a case of 'releasing' slots - there are none availabe to 'release'!

The only way Delta will get into LHR before then is if they take over someone else's total operation - as AA and UA did with PA and TW 10 years ago. And is that likely to happen?
 
papatango
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Dec 30, 2001 2:35 am

without ba and aa giving up alot of lhr slots their code share is not going to get approved this is where dl co and nw will get their lhr slots
 
MAH4546
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Dec 30, 2001 2:52 am

777gk, FLL is covered under Bermuda II. No need to get around it. Bermuda II is categorized by metropolitan area, not airport. FLL is the Miami metropolitan area. That's how BA was able to add the BWI-LHR route this year, because Baltimore is the Washington metropolitan area.
a.
 
voodoo
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Dec 30, 2001 6:38 am

Delta will never get LHR access. End of story.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
777gk
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Dec 30, 2001 7:05 am

Thank you, Mah4546, I wasn't sure of that.
 
blink182
Posts: 5278
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Dec 30, 2001 8:21 am

I agree with the person who said that if they got slots, it would be slots for some really odd hours. Delta has got to be kidding me if they think AA/BA should give up 500 slots.

Delta should quit whining and add more flights through Paris where their proposed alliance with Air France is expected to go through.

For United's case, they should be using larger aircraft then. If their alliance with bmi goes through, than they shouldn't be opposing the AA/BA alliance.

AA/BA all the way!

rgds,
blink182
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
Guest

RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Dec 30, 2001 8:39 am

Looking through the topic, I determined several things:

1) Should any divesting of slots happen, the carriers with the new slots should operate the flights with a 777/744/A333.

2) AA/BA have to give up something to get this immunity. Whether it be slots at LHR, price contolled, or whatever, it needs to be something.

3) Delta/Continental/Northwest/USAirways should get most of the slots if the agreement happens, with some left for another carrier that might get larger later in life(ATA, Alaska, JetBlue, etc.).

4) Get an open skies agreement in place. I don't want to hear the 'we have a third UK carrier that wants to fly from LHR, now it can be 3UK/3US to LHR'. It doesn't work that way.
 
MAH4546
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,

Sun Dec 30, 2001 10:22 am

Blink182, I totally agree! DL should shut-up, quit whining, and be happy with CDG. I don't think UA is complaining that vocally, but they would like to have bmi get LHJR-US flights.

Go AA/BA!
a.
 
G-VIIB
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Wed Jan 02, 2002 2:39 pm

Hey everyone,
My question is, what is the big deal over LHR?? Is it more connections or what?? I mean DL flies to LGW, and thats still London, why is LHR so much "better" and why does every airline want in there?
Regards, G-VIIB
 
2cn
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Wed Jan 02, 2002 3:07 pm

UA isnt complaining becuase they have slots... DL, NW and CO do not. It is like comparing apples to oranges here.

As for what the big thing is over LHR vs LGW, airlines can get higher yeilds on the LHR run. This is considered the most profitable route. LHR is prefered by business men since it is closer to London then LGW is.

And it isnt a matter of even AirFrance giving slots up to Delta and KLM to NW, because the current agreement wouldnt permit it- it still can only be two US airlines and two British airlines... so even if the slots were there, they still cant fly untill the agreement is modified.

Why should Delta shut up, quit whining, and be happy with CDG? They are, even if you dont believe it, helping passengers by trying to get more competition (even if it is to try and benifit themselves as well, which AA/BA are doing by not giving up slots) on the route which would actually equal lower prices.

Untill more competition can take place on this route, BA/AA should not get approval for their agreement. They do need to release slots to allow fair competition, thus making sure prices do not just go up more then down.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Wed Jan 02, 2002 3:47 pm

2cn, yes, UA has slots, but bmi does not. They do want bmi to get slots. Also, Gatwick is closer to Central London. I totally understand they are helping passengers out here (though AA/UA/BA/VS have already established themselves with many frequent fliers between the US and Heathrow and 99% of them won't be switching over), but they should just live with what is. NW/KL have an almost complete monopoly on the US-Amsterdam market. Now I know that the US/AMS market is open to everyone, but even when it is open to everyone, that does not stop the monopoly. Only Miami, New York, and Chicago have more than one carrier to Amsterdam. This thing is just all messed up. In a perfect world, all the US airlines and airports would have LHR accsess. But this is not a perfect world. DL should just face reality and get on with thier business.
a.
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Wed Jan 02, 2002 3:55 pm

Forgive my ignorance at what I'm about to ask, but I honestly have no clue as to the answer to this and what better board/thread to ask!

How busy is LHR-really? And how many runways does it use? Is it really that signifcantly busier than ATL, ORD or DFW? With all the fuss these airlines are making over these slots, one would be lead to believe this. Yet when you hear airport statistics being discussed in either A) the media B) published papers or C) this board, no one ever addresses LHR and congestion. Just ORD, ATL, DFW and to a lesser extent EWR and CDG. So would someone please enlighten someone who has never flown to Europe before (someday soon, hopefully!) as to how busy LHR really is and the exact reason for probably the globe's strictest slot system?
 
2cn
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Wed Jan 02, 2002 5:14 pm

NW/KL have an almost complete monopoly on the US-Amsterdam market. Now I know that the US/AMS market is open to everyone, but even when it is open to everyone, that does not stop the monopoly. Only Miami, New York, and Chicago have more than one carrier to Amsterdam. This thing is just all messed up. In a perfect world, all the US airlines and airports would have LHR accsess. But this is not a perfect world. DL should just face reality and get on with thier business.

One question regarding the KLM/NW 'monopoly' on the US/AMS route- do they have an agreement of the sort that AA/BA is going after? Probably not.. so it isnt the same here.

Here we have AA/BA trying to get it so they dont have to compete against each other- as it is, even with competition between AA,BA,Virgin, and UA, the prices are still very high, and I don't believe them that prices will drop if they don't have to compete against each other.

I hope DL continues to be the leader here in the US voicing their objections to this alliance, and hope it does not go thru untill more competition is allowed into Heathrow.
 
ryanb741
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RE: Deltaflyertoo

Wed Jan 02, 2002 6:24 pm

LHR is the world's busiest INTERNATIONAL airport (i.e. for international flights). It is smaller is size than ORD because planning permission has been hard to get (although hopefully this will be addressed with the construction of Terminal 5). Therefore, slots are hard to get, and remember London has primarily been the prime European destination for business travellers.

Also, the airport needs another runway IMHO.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Ciro
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Wed Jan 02, 2002 10:54 pm

BA won´t give up its slots in LHR simply because its accessibility at the world´s busiest international airport is the major competitive advantage this airline has.

It is true that BA has to strenght its transatlantic alliance to remain competitive in the long-run, and their management surely will find other means to get that without handing over precious slots.

Looking at the recent history, Swissair took over Sabena to get more access to the European Community market. BA may adopt a similar strategy by teaming up with KLM and, therefore, gainining unlimited access to the US through code-sahring at AMS.

Interesting moves in the industry will take place in 2002!  Smile





The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
 
G-VIIB
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Thu Jan 03, 2002 2:37 am

Hey,
Thanks 2cn for answering my question!! Yea it is a rather annoying train ride from LGW to the city. Thanks again!,
Regards,
G-VIIB
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24596
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Thu Jan 03, 2002 2:41 am

2cn, someone correct me if I am wrong, but yes, NW and KL have what AA and BA want. They have anti-trust immunity across the Atlantic and are basiclly "one" airline across the Atlantic (how else do you think NW can fill DC-10s on routes like SEA-AMS and MIA-AMS?) and they share profits.
a.
 
ryanair
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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 1:41 am

RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Fri Jan 04, 2002 6:20 am

Without AA/BA giving up slots it would be very hard to get any sort of meaningful operation in and out of LHR, as the peak times are absolutely full in terms of runway capacity (LHR has two and a small backup cross runway), around mid-early afternoon there are runways slots free, but that's about the only time. The issue isn't just runways, but also terminal space, they really are full. With T5 that will ease, but it'll be many years till that's up and running.

I can see no reason to exclude US carriers from LHR. I don't however despite the above believe they should be given slots. Basically these are business assets, that were acquired by AA/BA fairly, because they followed strategies that worked and the likes of NW and CO didn't. I don't see why a successful company should be penalised for the sake of unsuccessful ones.
 
blink182
Posts: 5278
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:03 am

MAH4546- go us! hehehe.

Deltaflyertoo- The big deal with the business at LHR(I have been there a few times) is the slots.

Heathrow is very congested and i have noticed that in a set of about 15 gates at LHR, about 13 will be occupied, with the extra 2 having flights that have just left.

Delta,Continental, USAirways, and Northwest just don't get it.
Anyone of those,except for Continental, I think, could have bought the slots American has. American bought the slots from TWA in the 80's. Any of those airlines could have bought those, but NO, they didn't. Now they regret that decision, but they shouldn't be whining about it one bit. They had a chance at those slots.

I said "except for Continental" because I am not sure if they were flying at that time. I know they got into trouble in the 80's.

Yes way AA/BA! (in parody to VS's "No way AA/BA"!)

rgds,
blink182

Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Jan 06, 2002 12:33 pm

While it's easy for Blink182 and Mah4546 to talk about how Delta should quit whining, there are things more important to the industry than what is best for one or two airlines like American and Delta.

The greater issue here is transatlantic competition. When antitrust immunity is granted, the two airlines operate as one across the Atlantic and beyond. If AA/BA is approved, it will be like Ford and General Motors merging. Sure, there are other car companies out there, but can they compete? Not really.

Yes, Paris has great O&D traffic, but London is unrivalled. It's already unfair enough that only two U.S. carriers are allowed to operate into London's primary airport. Where in the United States is any carrier relegated to a secondary airport?

There are currently two U.S. carriers and two U.K. carriers providing LHR-US service. If one of each group are allowed to essentially combine, you've gone from four competitors to three.

US-France is open skies. Everybody who wants to operate to France is free to do so once open skies takes full effect. Comparing DL/AF at CDG and AA/BA at LHR is a terrible comparison, very misleading.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Jan 06, 2002 1:19 pm

DeltaSFO-

>>There are currently two U.S. carriers and two U.K. carriers providing LHR-US service.<<

Forgive my ignorance but:
US=UA, AA
UK=BA, and VS? I thought VS only had rights to LGW?

Also, how is the nonrev stuff with the new skyteam members? Better than Aeromexico?
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
SESGDL
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Jan 06, 2002 5:07 pm

The US should allow one airline from the UK into JFK, and make other airlines use Newark just to cause some stirrups. HEHE

P.S. I was just kidding.......
 
David_itl
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Jan 06, 2002 11:25 pm

PanAm747

VS has been flying from LHR to the US for around a decade!

David/MAN
 
mikeymike
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 6:52 am

RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Sun Jan 06, 2002 11:27 pm

I like your thinking SESGDL...granted thats tit for tat...but hey...thats the airline industry.

No, Heathrow is closer to Central London...Heathrow is only approximately 7 miles from Hammersmith via the M4 and its inside the M25 perimeter...christ Gatwick is 10 miles dues south of the M25...I forget which motorway its on but its a hike!

Its a matter of economies of scale here...NW/KL may have a monopoly on what...a frickin Vespa scooter where AA/BA would have a monopoly on the porsche market! let me tell you which piece of the pie I want!!!

DL should face reality??? hah....this is not kindergarten here...its Business! AA/BA is doing no wrong by TRYING to protect its territory....heck I would do it to if I was in their position, but DL (and any other airline) can do whatever they want to try and get into LHR (obviously within regulators means). I'm not going sit down and shut up in the corner because I didin't buy Pan Ams routes back in the early 90's. Besides Delta did wonders by purchasing PA's trans-atlantic routes (even if its great for Non-Revs  Wink/being sarcastic )

PanAm747, UA, AA from the US and BA, VS from the UK have trans-atlantic privledges to fly LHR-USA
 
DeltaSFO
Posts: 2407
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Mon Jan 07, 2002 4:46 am

The US should allow one airline from the UK into JFK, and make other airlines use Newark just to cause some stirrups. HEHE

SESGDL... No... to make it how LHR/LGW is, they should make everybody else use BDL. EWR is too close to New York. Obviously this would never happen, but it's an entertaining idea to say the least.

Mikeymike... I couldn't agree with you more.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
afitch7881
Posts: 722
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2000 2:04 am

RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Mon Jan 07, 2002 5:47 am

I am all up for sending the international flights to BDL. With the new international termial, BDL will be able to handle 300 pax an hour! HAHA


Eric


 
jessman
Posts: 1457
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Mon Jan 07, 2002 6:24 am

Why don't we have this problem over LGA and DCA airports in the us. LGA can obviously handle at least a 767, Dl flies them in from ATL, and DCA is obvously more convienient when traveling to Washington than IAD or BWI.
What's the deal?
 
donder10
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RE: Imagine DL With Access To LHR ...

Mon Jan 07, 2002 6:39 am

It wasn't just the UK who signed the Bermuda II agreement.