aamd11
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2001 11:54 am

Are BA And KLM Close?

Tue Jan 01, 2002 9:35 am

In the news very recently (like today) there have been reports that BA and KLM are close (very close) to finalising a passanger share deal....
Does this mean they are on the long road to full cooperation and eventually a merger?
What do you think???

Personally i'd love to see those two get very close in the future...
BA and KLM would be a big airline (3rd biggest was the number the last time the merger proposal surfaced!)

What do you think?
Do you think there are similar talks bvetween say Air France and Alitalia???
 
Guest

RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Tue Jan 01, 2002 9:49 am

KLM and British Airways might indeed be very close to a merger deal. If all goes through, KLM/British Airways is going to be one HUGE airline! I wonder what Northwest thinks about this situation, hehehe.  Laugh out loud
 
aamd11
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Tue Jan 01, 2002 9:54 am

Who cares about NWA>????
I certainly dont and KLM knows it would be better off with BA and AA, the benifits to all 3 involved would be unbelieveable... the profit sharing, the airport space they have... Schiphol and Heathrow as joint hubs would be a mega Euro hub, untouchable by the Germans and The french..
 
Guest

RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Tue Jan 01, 2002 10:02 am

Hehehehe, typical opinion from a typical AA fan. I have no problem with whatever you said, AAmd11. Still, are you suggesting that KLM should ditch NW and join the Oneworld Alliance? I was just wondering what NW will think about the whole situation, since they are VERY close in alliance to KLM. Nevertheless, BA and KLM would follow through with this merger due to the Septermber 11th attacks' impact on both airlines. We just have to wait and see how things will work out between the two airlines.
 
aamd11
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Tue Jan 01, 2002 10:11 am

Indeed we should see how it all turns out...
Personally i dont think much of the KLM/NWA thing... i dont think that will help that much in the near future.. especially seen as the US carrier was very badly hit after 9-11... and i think it will strain relationship between the two airlines... and thats not good news, it will cost both airlines dearly...
Im not sure about joining oneworld unless BA and KLM do actually merge, otherwise this pax sharing will just mean a seperate deal, such as BA and emirates, even though emirates isnt in oneworld.
As it stands its a single deal to pax share between two airlines that have no other ties as yet...

But we shall see what the future of European aviation holds for the two of em...
Dont care much about AF as being one of the 'big three' as ill call 'em Insane... KLM is actually seen as a possible 4th?!?!?!?! Crazy!!!  Nuts

Heres another thought.... Confused.
BA, based in Britain using pounds sterling...
KLM, based in Holland, using Euros!!!!
What does this mean??? it may be a more difficult situation... but no reason for britain to join that dumb single currency!!! i hate it.... bad bad idea, i hope it fails!!!
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Tue Jan 01, 2002 10:16 am

If KLM merges with BA, you'll see NW work hard to merge with Delta, United, Continental and/or America West. Northwest can't survive alone....
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
racko
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Tue Jan 01, 2002 10:32 am

AAmd11,

you live in canada,

so maybe you should let the europeans decide if they want the euro or not ... and if i watch those people in Brussels, Frankfurt, Paris etc. shown on the TV they really like it  Smile

We had a great time with the Deutschmark here in Germany, and I'm looking forward to new, greater times with the €uro and our european friends.

Btw, in many british shops you'll be able to pay with the euro and i hope that the British decide to join the euro soon  Smile
 
bmi330
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Tue Jan 01, 2002 11:25 am

do u think iberia will also be swalowed up by ba if they do inded merg with klm and how big an airline would this be and will it happen?
 
aamd11
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Tue Jan 01, 2002 11:38 am

Racko,

You are right, i do live in Canada, but im born British and only until august i lived there are my life...
Im not anti-european but i dont think the Euro is right for Britain yet....
The point i was making is the political differences between KLM with the Euro and BA with the £... do you think it will cause a major sticking point??????
I dont think that if two airlines like that got close the currency issue can be discarded.

And second point: in response to bmi330's post.
It is possible that BA will increase its stake in Iberia if KLM and BA merge, its a possibility, there are so many airlines that will need to fall into one of the big three's airline groups, and Iberia is likely to follow BA group...
Finnair??? SAS??? Alitalia most likely to join AF, and may even drop their internatonal routes... (did anyone hear that??)
How about Crossair/ Swissair??? What does the future hold for say other euro airlines..LOT??? there are plenty of airlines but who will they beciome part of.
 
AmericanKing
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:02 pm

Hey Aamd11, I really do not like the idea of BA and KLM merging. It just does not seem right to me. KLM and NWA are doing fine. And Finacially NWA,CO,&SWA are only the three airlines out of the U.S. that could turn a profit after 9-11. AA,UAL&DL all had finacial trouble. The reason being that CO and NWA in particular could turn a profit, is because they have much more international flights with bigger aircraft or in some cases smaller, but with not a lot of flight to and from paticular cities. See what I am saying is that they put themselves into a financial, scheduling, and aircraft managment to where they could slim down(which they did) but did not have to worry that much about losing customers on international flights. Just my viewpoint and it is understandable to me that if you do not agree with me, but I do not like the fact of KLM and BA mergeing. Yes they are two of the older gals in the game but that is the problem. Look at TWA, America has lost both of its oldest Airlines(Pan Am, TWA) soo if these airlines are not around then each european country that has or once had an airline, like SABENA(Beligum), their coutnry feels embarassed, I eve asked the flight crews on my SN flights, they were reall upset about it. And look what happened to them when they worked with another big European Airline, BAM they all lost money, I am not saying that all airlines in Europe that codeshare are bad, but when you get two giants like that along with a currency barrier, and language barrier, it cost more money to have a conversation and to trade things. Then you have the Managment staff of airline A and then Airline B and most of the time in a merge or something else, you either get teh message but do not interpret it how they want you to interpret it, or they are never on the same page. Just my thought.
 
Ciro
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:03 pm

Interesting consolidation if the merging goes through. With the current world economy and given technology, there is no room available for so many players in the Airline Industry. The year 2002 will be one full of new deals towards the building of 3 mega/worldwide alliances.

It will be great to seeing KLM and MAS flying together with OneWorld. Surely there will be much more to come!

Cheers!
The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
 
LJ
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Tue Jan 01, 2002 7:15 pm

KLM and BA won't merge in the foreeable future. They only talk about a codesharing deal as after September 11th traffic between AMS and LON has dropped and BA wants to cut further in its short haul network.Both airlines have said they'll remain loyal to their alliances (KLM with CO and NW, BA with AA).

Only if an anti-trust deal between AA and BA won't go through I see a chance for a KLM/BA merger.

Regards
Laurens
 
petertenthije
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Tue Jan 01, 2002 9:13 pm

In the case of KLM/BA there really is no currency and no language barrier Americanking. A lot of companies in the UK already accept the Euro. No doubt a large company like BA will accept it as well.
(just on a sidenote, I am wondering how BA pays for the Airbusses: Euro or Dollar)

With regard to language, you will find few countries were such a large percentage of people speak reasonable to fluent English. Except of course for those countries were English is the native language.

I do not believe KLM should merge with BA though. It would not be a merger, it would be a takeover since BA is much larger. It may be nationalism speaking, but I do not want that. A deal between equal partners is better. If BA wants to be that, that would certainly be great. They do not want that though (can't blame them).

KLM/NW/MAS are doing quite nicely. Getting rid of NW is not going to be easy. After all, KLM/NW truelly merged, wereas other alliances just cooperate. It is harder to step out of a merger, then it is to step out of a cooperation.
Attamottamotta!
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Wed Jan 02, 2002 12:20 am

Americanking, I believe the only reason NW and CO made a slight profit last year was due to the Federal government's post 9/11 bailout. They're hemoraging money now like the other US airlines. So you can say they're less worse off, but not making a profit without the one time only federal funds.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
tripple7
Posts: 510
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Wed Jan 02, 2002 4:17 am

Yesterday on 31/12 BA denied again that it is in talks with KLM about a merger. This was BA's reply to some rumor in the British press that BA and KLM are really close to a merger. BA's denial was on CNBC Europe.

regards,

tripple7
 
MSPMAN
Posts: 168
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Wed Jan 02, 2002 4:24 am

If BA and KLM have a merger
1. BA will drop it's relationship with AA for NW.
2. Bermuda II to include BD and NW/CO.
3. Add MSP-LHR, DTW-LHR for NW, and EWR-LHR, IAH-LHR for CO.
 
go canada!
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Wed Jan 02, 2002 4:49 am

Racko-only a few uk shops will tkae the euro, dixons and Marks and spencers are the main two, some John Lewis' may also accept it.

However, that is not the same as Britain accepting the euro nor wanting to be in it. the British economy is in different economic cycle from euroland, we simply cannot join due to our veyr low inflation, low taxes, low unemploymnet, low interest rates ,high government spending, high consumer spending and a higher growing economy.

In fact the UK isnt in a recession, unlike euroland. Add this to the political and moral issues and you get a clearer picture.

the point made with regard to what currency to use can be explained. BA/KLM, would be in effect a BA takeover, packaged as a merger of equals with Rod Ed still chief exc and with BA holding the bigger share, probably 60-40.

the company can have duel lisitings in london and on euronext, owner of the amsterdam stock market.

There is nothing to stop this company using both currenies, after all the airlines SAS and Lot have different currencies and that doesnt stop them being tied. Currencies havent stop SIA buying 49% of virgin atl nor stopped Lufthansa owning 25% of bmi or Emriates backing sri lankan.

BA will not drop the pund because of politics. the british press would hit the roof and the prospect of a national institution like BA only using euros, this in turn would lead to pressure on the media-sensitive government and in turn pressure on BA, not to mention Richard Branosn having a field day.

When BA dropped the lfag there was national outraged and branson won a pr coup by plastering the union flag over his planes.

As for BA dropping AA, lol, why would bA wanted to drop Aa, tis long term partner for a smaller airlines, especially when it has a cherised dream of merging with BA and AA is in one world while NW can offer MAS!

BA and Iberia-now theres a thought!

It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
BBADXB
Posts: 777
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Wed Jan 02, 2002 7:22 pm


...To whoever is downplaying the Euro..

We just have to wait & WE'LL see...

BBADXB  Wink/being sarcastic

 
Ciro
Posts: 639
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Thu Jan 03, 2002 12:37 am

BA will get unlimited access to the US market, through AMS, without handing over slots at LHR if it takes over KLM. I kinda like this idea...
The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
 
aamd11
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2001 11:54 am

RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Thu Jan 03, 2002 12:47 am

The main use of Shcipho would be as a joint hub for the group.... it would ease some of the pressure of LHR by flying people through AMS......
It is a good idea, BA needs to be able to maintain LHR as a hub but needs to keep its important routes there. so they'd move less important routes to AMS, and keep LHR as the main hub....
Also if open skies gets done hen BA will have a hub to fall back on when it has to give up slots at heathrow...
Its win win for BA it seems... it always wanted another major transatlantic hib... it could have been Dublin w Aer Lingus.... but that aint happening....

We shall see.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Thu Jan 03, 2002 12:50 am

And how do you think Schiphol will handle those flights. They are very tight as it is. Sure, there will be a new runway in a few years, but given the demand for slots that will be filled quite soon. Especcialy if you bare in mind that with the new runway other runways are not allowed to be used as much (environmental laws, noise etc).
Attamottamotta!
 
LJ
Posts: 4112
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Thu Jan 03, 2002 3:52 am

BA can't you the KLM route as KLM will loose most of the traffic rights once taken over. Moreover, the US seems to have a some kind termination option in the open skies agreement should BA take over KLM.

Regards
Laurens
 
covert
Posts: 1500
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Thu Jan 03, 2002 4:32 am

there would be very strong opposition and nationalism in all the countries involved. a lot of people would be against such an alliance...
none
 
go canada!
Posts: 2886
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Thu Jan 03, 2002 5:49 am

Covert-a lot of people would have opposition to KLM and BA going bankrupt becase they cant survive without consoldation!
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Ciro
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Thu Jan 03, 2002 11:30 am

I think that commercial deals and partnerships are quite common and even traditional between the Britons and the Dutch. Enterprises, like Royal Dutch Shell, are benchmarks for the industry. It is not likely that a take over of KLM by British Airways would create that much opposition crying (apart from the local unions), specially because both nations are culturally money-wise and efficent / profit-driven.

That´s Europe, not Latin-America!  Smile  Smile  Smile



The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
 
bmi330
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RE: Are BA And KLM Close?

Thu Jan 03, 2002 1:25 pm

ba dominante in europe oh yeah why stop at klm how about iberia lot finair alitalia etc ba a super european carrier yeah put af and lh in there place yeah