AirCanadaGuy
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Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 7:37 am

Angus Kinnear stopped short of calling on the federal Competition Bureau to end Air Canada's new discount service, Tango, in order to ensure a place for his airline and jobs for 1,200 former employees.

But he made it clear that he considers Ottawa's delayed response to Canada 3000's complaints about anti-competitive pricing by Tango to be a critical factor in his airline's collapse last Nov. 11. The government's competition watchdog revealed the day after Canada 3000 collapsed that the bureau was poised to issue a cease and desist order against Tango.

"I'm quite sure, had they issued the order a day before, we wouldn't be having this conversation today," Kinnear said in a telephone interview yesterday.

Come on... Does he really think that Tango had had that much to do with there demise!!! I work for the enemy.....Oddly enough my wife "worked" for C3. Gee the issues we had....lol. All kidding aside I really firmly belive that Tango played no role in there demise. The distrust in Canada 3000 brand was already there due on there own part!

Second, Now with the Next Gen Canada 3000 They are say we want Tango out or restricted in order for us to get in the market!!! What a bunch of babies!! Air Canada has earned to be where they are today and the respect that there name brings along with that show's in consumer confidence. Tango along with Air Canada in the back round to help it sell. I'm all for it and firmly belive that yes, we need some competition in Canada. When we need to start putting restrictions such as sease and desist orders even before the company Get's it's foot in the door. Well enough said. I wish C3 all the best of luck.

ACGUY
 
Airontario
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 7:52 am

Come on AC didnt do all this because Wesyjet apperd and plus C3 was going down before Tango
 
Dash8King
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 9:50 am

Well I am not for Tango or Zip but I don't believe that Tango had anything to do with the demise of C3. Tango was in service for like 2 days I mean come on. So no Tango should not be closed becuase of that, but Zip should be cancelled before it starts
 
AirCanadaGuy
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 10:36 am

Dash8King

I agree with you on the Zip not the Tango!!! I still feel that AC should be able to match prices and hold seat sales as it see's fit! If Westjet is in such great finacial shape well then it should be able to handle some competition.

AC
 
fallingeese
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 10:38 am

Longlive Westjet. You as an employee of Air Canada have to admit that Zip is a hostile attempt to sink Westjet. With hubs in Calgary and Hamilton of all places.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
Dash8King
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 10:53 am

Tango is basically competing with Air Canada thats it right, and tango has levels at 80% so why doesn't Air Canada just lower its prices and maybe people will fly on them, then get rid of tango
 
AirCanadaGuy
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 10:59 am

"Zip is a hostile attempt to sink Westjet. With hubs in Calgary and Hamilton of all places."

Fallingeese.
I agree that Zip is aimed at Westjet directly! But why not? Is there not room for some competition out west. For AC out west it's a weaker market for them. So why not try to cater to the " mood :" of the traveling public!
As for Calgary and Hamilton. Well we already are out of Calgary, Hamilton just would make sense to flow traffic thru there as center point. Cost point of view and so forth. Tango works out of L.B.P.I.A seeing that we handle Tango. Zip would be something totaly different. Ceo and staffing would be outside of AC it would be a subsidary. In the end I really don't think Zip will ever fly! Time will tell.

Cheers

AC


 
AC183
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 11:20 am

The LCC, and Tango for that matter, isn't intended to sink WJ, it's more like Damage Control. But IMO it's still not the right strategic move...
 
rootsgirl
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 11:22 am

AirCanadaGuy,
Here! here! I totally agree with everything that you are saying and I cannot believe anyone who knows Canadian aviation would even entertain believing what Angus is trying to pull off. Gee, wish he would make up his mind, is it Sept 11, Tango, Royal or CUPE that was responsible for the demise of C-3000? OR could it be mismanagement - heaven forbid that possibility!
 
AirCanadaGuy
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 11:30 am

I don't agree or think that any airline should have a monopoly anywhere. As for Canadian airlines. What's left of them. Using Sept 11th as a cop out. AC was in the RED big time... The only thing that Sept 11 did was act as an acelorator to the end result. BIG MONEY TROUBLES!!! Alot of people have suferd because of it, be it lay offs or any other result. My only concern is when people or Ceo's blame other factors, rather then step up to plate and call it what it is.. A screw up!!! I would love to see Angus admit he shouldn'd have gone Sked nor should he have taken on Royal or Canjet!!
My 2cents worth

AC
 
Dash8King
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 11:36 am

Yeah but Air Canada will never go out of business no matter how bad it gets someone will step in
 
AirCanadaGuy
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 11:48 am

I sure hope not!!! Ill be out on the street... LOL I believe that there are enough people out there who care enough about Air Canada to keep it going if it were ever in that position.As long as Air CAnada wanranted being saved. Let's look back to the ONYX fun.. Who in the end came up!!
We are seeing it now with C3. The people who belive in it want to wake it again. Would you if you had a unlimited supply of cash???


If it's worth it go for it! If not leave it alone!!! That would be the way I would look at it.

AC
 
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 12:29 pm

AirCanadaGuy wrote: "Zip would be something totaly different."

It would be something totally different alright. Presumably it will be a way of watering down Westjet's market. Or perhaps a way of keeping people and resources preoccupied until the parent company is relieved of the expensive promises it made at the time of the AC/CP merger.

But a profit-maker it won't be.

 
fallingeese
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 3:03 pm

The only way that Zip would have a possibility of making money would be from mainline passengers that choose it over AC.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
Dash8King
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 4:08 pm

Oh and congrats on becoming a Airliners.net member, and a really good first post!
 
AirCanadaGuy
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sat Jan 05, 2002 6:02 pm

Thanks Dash8King,

I hope no sarcasam intended.

Looking forward to further topics...

AC  Smile
 
gmonney
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 12:04 am

I think that AC sould focus on what they know best....thats scheduled AC service. SouthWest is Southwest and WJ is WJ, I don't know why AC is trying to be WJ or Southwest???? They do well, I think on their scheduled runs....

I like the idea of Tango, a more cost efficient way of travel, Zip....no so excited. My question is....will the NGC3 has like charter service again? Can I get a flight to LAS at the end of april, but why would i take them, you know, book a ticket and see them fail. I better go with Sky Service.....I won't fly TS. Air Transat is crap, done it two to many times to LAS. Why doesn't AC get some L1011's back.....and blow TS out of the market....that would help Canadain aviation.

Welcome Aircanadaguy.....

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
AirCanadaGuy
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 4:27 am

gmonney,

Thanks for the welcome!!

As for AC trying to be like WJ or Southwest! Are they not a sked operator? So there for, Air Canada has just brought in a product to cater to the people who may not care about free peanuts or drinks! Wouldn't you rather be able to bring your own food, rather than eat airplane food?? I would! Plus save a few buck at the same time...

The L1011 are not cost effective for AC and with the fleet renewal it is not possible. Besides it's getting harder and harder to find parts for the aging L1011.

Cheers

AC

 
fallingeese
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 5:36 am

AirCanadaGuy you should first know that I am a Westjet supporter...and welcome.

In a time where the economy is slowing and Air Canada is downsizing, do you really see a need to put an addition 20 gas guzzlers back into the sky? Other international carriers like British Airways, Continental, and United, just to name a few have tried launching discount carriers themselves, all have been unsuccessful. Tango is working, and i like the idea of it. That I have no problems with, I also believe it had nothing to do with the demise of Canada 3000. The proposed LCC I do.

If Canada 3000 does comeback I think that Tango should NOT be restricted, and allowed to do what it is doing now. Canada 3000 is the newcomer and should have to find it's own niche.

Fly Westjet!
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
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yyz717
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 5:44 am

Angus is trying to deflect blame from his own mgmt mistakes by blaming Tango. He's not likely to admit that moving to sked ops, buying QN, buying Canjet were mistakes, even though it appears they were. Even if Tango had been shut down, C3 was still out of cash and would have collapsed anyway.

Success has a thousand parents. Failure is an orphan.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
AirCanadaGuy
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 5:47 am

Faillinggeese,

I agree with you on LCC I don't agree with the timing of it. I do however believe that there is a market that Air Canada could tap into with the same gas guzzlers as Westjet has!

As for C3 I also agree, let them find there own way in or out again!

Thanks for the welcome Smile

AC
 
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 6:27 am

AirCanadaGuy wrote: "I do however believe that there is a market that Air Canada could tap into with the same gas guzzlers as Westjet has!"

There is, but it's not the one they're planning to tap into. If Zip were intended to be a profitable venture, then it would make sense for them to fill in the voids in Westjet's network. Some of these voids are large: routes to, from and within Quebec and the Atlantic provinces, as well as trans-border routes.

Zip, it seems, has little interest in those potentially profitable voids.

Instead, they're going to create hubs in Calgary and Hamilton, thus resulting in the same kinds of planes flying the same routes at the same times. When they did this against Canadian, it was AC that was the market leader and CP that was the upstart. But this time it's Westjet that will be the market leader and Zip that will be the Johnny-come-lately.

Which pretty well rules out Zip as having any profit potential.

And which brings us back to questioning Zip's motives. Is it an attempt to start a war of attrition with Westjet? A make-work project until 2004, when Air Canada will have the handcuffs of its fatuous no-layoffs-for-five-years promise taken off? A bit of both?


 
gmonney
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Will Air Canada Be Replacing Sked Flights?

Sun Jan 06, 2002 6:35 am

Another thing....

With AC be replaceing some of the sked flights with these zip flights. What I am saying is offer three different levels of flights to the same place. Cover all aspects of the aviation world. Low cost, Medium cost and business travler upscale class. There will be one stop shopping....AC is dipping into all of the aviation pots!!!

Thanks,

Grant

P.S. AirCanadaGuy: I was joking with the L1011 thing...laugh once and a while!!  Big grin
Drive it like you stole it!
 
fallingeese
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 6:36 am

Well said Mcdougald.

Westjet has holes in it's system. No Toronto, Montreal, hell it's Eastern presence in barely noticable, and no trans-border. There are plenty of other places that Air Canada can make a profit from, but it instead decides to focus against one carrier, a carrier that has a loyal following and the Western provinces on it's back.

If any of you come out to YYC I'm sure that some of us spotters would gladly show you the Air Canada Gas Guzzlers parked all over the airfield.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
AirCanadaGuy
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 6:38 am

"Air Canada will have the handcuffs of its fatuous no-layoffs-for-five-years promise taken off?"

Have you not been reading or watching the news in past while??? The only people who have not had any lay offs is the customer sales agents! As for make work project!!! How do you figure?? It would be staffed not by Air Canada. !! NEW HIRES!!! The new employees would be hired under Zip or what ever the name will be!
Hence it would creat jobs!

Also don't forget the gaps that you say Zip should pick up to be profitable. There already being served by either AC mainline or Tango!

Cheers,

AC

 
gmonney
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 6:40 am

Fallingeese....Is that where all of the 732 are being stored, i have heard that some of the DC-9's are in North Bay, ON. Do you think that Zip would ever use the DC-9 as a less passenger aircraft? Kind of a back up at each airport?

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
fallingeese
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 6:54 am

Gmonney-

Calgary is loaded with F-28's and 737's all around. Tons are sitting in foreign locations of the airport, basically where ever the space is cheap and empty. The DC-9's were put of an accelerated retirement and put into storage in North Bay, though some have been rumoured to be doing emergency flights for someother aircraft.

The DC-9 question is something that I wondered myself. Mainly because Westjet's initial intentions were to use the DC-9 aircraft, but since Valujet was sweeping them all up, they were forced to go with the 737-200. If "Zip" does go through (which i doubt it will thanks to our beloved Canadian government) I think the DC-9 would be a better fit for the short range discount market, as were Westjet's intentions. A chunk of the Canadian 737's were leased which means getting rid of them can come easier. According to Bill Harms' website Air Canada only has 8 DC-9's left, which might be a contributing factor.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
AirCanadaGuy
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 6:58 am

Gmonney,

LOL  Smile

The reply for the L1011 is that there are alot of people who would like to see them in the fleet. Each to there own.

As for double dipping or even tripple in the pot as is AC doing. I think that Zip is not sutiable yet. East vs West has always been there. Not to offend anyone there seems to be two very different attitudes. East is Anal almost snobish at times and out west it's more laid back!

There stuggle I guess would be how to win over out west now! That's what there trying for.

The 737 that they would be operating are very costly. Figure the average monthly cost in maintence for one is around 75 000 to 125 000 monthly. Compared to the DC9 which is around 28 000. Im not to sure how they figure on making big cash!!!

Fallingeese what is it about Westjet that you like so much?


AC....

 
fallingeese
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 7:04 am

I was a Canadi>n Kid. I don't have anything against Air Canada, I just am a strong Westjet supporter. The kindness they have snowed myself is beyond what is required. I had a tour of the Calgary facility and they went far beyond the call of duty. I've flown Westjet about 20 times in their existance and have yet to be disapointed.

Any idea why there is such a discrepancy between maintance cost's of the two aircraft? The DC-9 would be far more logical in my opinion.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
AirCanadaGuy
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 7:10 am

The 737 have not been maintanied as the 9's have! There fore increased wear! Mind you the 737 is one heck of a work horse also! It's also a very versatile plane as it can be configured for an upper deck cargo load. ( only on some models) where as the 9 is only pax!

I would be interested in flying Westjet! I see the counters all over and they all seem relaxed and pleasent!

AC
 
fallingeese
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 7:31 am

Yes I'm aware of the upperdeck cargo as I have flown on a couple of Combi flights with First Air. I've been on probably 60-70 737's so i know the full extent of the aircraft. I'm still surprised that there is such a discrepancy in the maintainance between the two aircraft of similar times. Some of the Canadian planes were some of the last to roll off the line in Everett. Although some have seen less beautiful days with other carriers then picked up by Canadian.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
gmonney
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 7:39 am

My cousin couldn't say enough good things about WJ when she went to calgary. She was impressed with the pilot or maybe first office coming out and playing games. She said it was good home town fun, nothing she has ever seen before. I am interested in flying WJ soon, but my real love was with Royal....to bad its gone. I feel that AC is over priced, but what can you do its Canada's main airline, you have to love it!!!

I guess with every decision there is a reason.....so there must be a reason why this so called Zip maybe using the 732 (my favorite aircraft).

All i want to have is safe air travel, with choice and competitive prices. Thats why I would like to see C3 back up again but I don't want it to fail AGAIN.

I think that AC (with main line and Tango) SSV, TS and WJ are a good mix in today's Canadian Aviation Segment, there is not a lot of room for another.....look at Roots...enough said.

Long live Canadian Aviation!!

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
fallingeese
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 7:42 am

I had a funny experiance flying home to Calgary a weekago. The Westjet flightcrew said whoever has the oldest penny wins this surprise gift. The lady sitting next to me ended up winning a barf bag with 6 pennies inside of it. The whole plane had a laugh. The landing in YYC, the pilot welcomed us to YEG. The boo's rang out and he said, just kidding, welcome to Calgary, the greatest city in Alberta.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 7:44 am

Air Canada is on a different competitive level from WestJet now and C3 previously. Although they are bleeding tons and tons of cash at the moment, they still have very large reserves, further bolstered by the recent sale and lease-back of A320 aircraft providing about $550 million. The other financial strength comes from years back before the airline was fully privatized, when the taxpayer was put on the hook for the airline's debt before it started with a clean slate.

Air Canada has used predatory practices to remove competitors in the past and there is no guarantee that they will not in the future. For example, VistaJet started in 1996 on Ontario-Quebec trunk routes. Particularly nice was the fact that they brought their 737-200 aircraft into Windsor, which had not and has not had jet service except for a brief stint by CanJet. AC dropped fares on the Toronto-Windsor route to $39 return with double aeroplan miles over a weekend stay. I jumped at the offer, as anyone else in their right mind would. But guess what, after VistaJet was gone the prices suddenly went back up again. Not by coincidence I think.

With its superior cash position, AC is better placed to take temporary losses on routes to eliminate competition and then increase the prices in the long term. That is why we need government oversight, despite some here saying it is "anti-competitive"...the only entity that is anti-competitive is AC.

Tango looks good from a customer's point of view...AC service quality at cut rate prices to popular destinations. But it is a rip-off of KLMuk's Buzz product and is destined to make little if any profit for the company, as its fixed costs are way higher than any true low cost carrier.

I don't have anything against AC's service or their staff, I was very pleasantly surprised on a flight LHR-YUL with them last week that even surpassed the standards from my favourite airline, Canadi>n. But they need to be watched very closely.
 
gmonney
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 7:51 am

A barf bag with pennies is great, I have never been on an aircraft when the whole plane laughs together. See, thats the way I work, when people come to the golf course I joke the same way, you know give them one or two clubs when they want a set, or get them left handed ones when they are right. But that warm sort of closed environment is really nice. At the Private Club I am at its really close and all of the people know who you are and joke...I never thought that this would happen in the sky.....is Southwest like this?

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
Dash8King
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Sun Jan 06, 2002 7:52 am

I too am a Westjet supporter, and would choose them over AC or Zip anyday, I don't care if Zip is cheaper I will still fly Westjet becuase I know in the long run it will be better for us consumers.
 
ramprat
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Mon Jan 07, 2002 10:59 am

I work for AC in Calgary and i hope that this discount carrier never gets off the ground. I think we need to concentrate on getting the mainline back in order and making money again. Not only that the new carrier would be flying Edmonton/Vancouver triangle, whick if i'm not mistaken is about 30-40 percent of Calgarys flights for AC. Since Air Canada ramp will not handle the new carrier, i could see more of us being laid off here, which i would hate to see. Let WestJet have their market and lets concentrate on ours instead of spreading ourselves all over the place.
 
fallingeese
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Mon Jan 07, 2002 11:01 am

Well said Raprant, If only Milton listened to some of his employees opinions.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
gmonney
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Mon Jan 07, 2002 11:16 am

Do you think Milton cares about employees....all that A-hole thinks about is his pockets and his shareholders.

He is in charge of making the company money any way he can do it, so if its going head to head with the 2nd best low cost carrier in the world (WestJet) than thats what the S.O.B. will do.

For us to discuss what he should do....do you think that leaving WestJet alone make him any more money....NO. I hate to say it but thats business. I hope that Milton is not screwing AC mainline and Tango but doing this Zip shit.....Long live WestJet and AC....the strong will survive.

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
fallingeese
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Mon Jan 07, 2002 11:23 am

OOHHH ya, now you're talking Grant. When Air Canada was facing hard times ahewad, Milton refused to take a pay cut, because he had taken one earlier...something like 5%. He still make over a million I believe. Now something is wrong when your CEO has this attitude. Look at Clive Beddoe, how much do you think he makes? The airline fired Steve Smith because the guy was negative, Clive gladly stepped back in.

Zip is beyond me. I doubt it will ever get off the ground, hopefully it never will. But as AirCanadaGuy said earlier the DC-9 has less maintainance costs than the 737-200, but for some reason AC choose the 737 for Zip.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
gmonney
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Mon Jan 07, 2002 1:14 pm

Can't agree more with the DC-9 thing, maybe a.net people should take over AC and run it properly!! LOL!!!

It's like Milton is lining his gold pockets with more gold!!!

Good nite,

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
captaingomes
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Mon Jan 07, 2002 1:17 pm

This has been a wonderful discussion, and I am joining it late in the game. But in any case, I agree with what you guys are saying, but if I may disagree with you Grant on one thing ... (sorry, I do respect you man) ... I do think that AC will not make more money by attacking Westjet directly. It is not a wise business decision, in my opinion.

Like I have said many times before, and has been said in this thread by ramprat, Grant and others, Air Canada must fix their mainline problems, and not rely on maybe making some money (which they wont) with discount carriers in order to feed the mainline part which is bleeding furiously. FIX WHAT IS BROKEN FIRST THEN EXPAND INTO NEW TERRITORY!

Canada needs Air Canada, and all other players in order to maintain some sort of stability. I too flew recently on Air Canada, from LHR to YYZ, and it was a trully exceptional flight. If they keep that service going, and know how to make money doing so, Air Canada will trully be a world class airline.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Mon Jan 07, 2002 1:19 pm

Milton surely is not considering his shareholders..if I was one I'd have his head! AC has been one of the worst performing stocks over the past 10 years.
 
AirCanadaGuy
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RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Mon Jan 07, 2002 4:53 pm

What Air Canada and Robert Milton is trying to do is be #1 and the only way he see's that being possible is by being the only 1 !!!!

With the recent lay offs we had it seemed that we lost all the wrong people. The ones that were good for the company, and now were stuck with a bunch of twits! Who don't care about anything else but BOTTOM LINES and COVERING THERE OWN ASS!!


Reading ramprat write ". Since Air Canada ramp will not handle the new carrier, i could see more of us being laid off here, which i would hate to see. " No kidding!! The thought never even came across my mind!! YIKES Well they screwed us once. Why not twice!!!

It seems that AC and Mr Milton know what there doing??? I just wish that they would let us in on there secret!

Ramprat, How many guys did you lose out in YYC?



ACG



 
ramprat
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2000 11:38 am

RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Tue Jan 08, 2002 12:43 pm

AirCanadaGuy, we lost about 13 leads and 45 stats. Boy did we feel it over
Christmas, we were just running around like crazy. Can't imagine what is was like in YYZ. I felt bad for the customers, not the service we should have been giving them. If they take those flights away from the mainine and give them to the new carrier then what will they do with the extra crews? Nobody in Calgary wants to see this new carrier get of the ground. I think its time for Milton to move on.
 
ramprat
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2000 11:38 am

RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Tue Jan 08, 2002 12:44 pm

AirCanadaGuy, we lost about 13 leads and 45 stats. Boy did we feel it over
Christmas, we were just running around like crazy. Can't imagine what is was like in YYZ. I felt bad for the customers, not the service we should have been giving them. If they take those flights away from the mainine and give them to the new carrier then what will they do with the extra crews? Nobody in Calgary wants to see this new carrier get of the ground. I think its time for Milton to move on.
 
superdawg
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 1:45 am

RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Tue Jan 08, 2002 11:53 pm

I will probably get a lot of slack for this but here it goes:

Air Canada wants to lauch Zip in a territory that another company is making money. This is a move any company would make in any industry, sure it won't be the market leader, but were GM, Ford or any other Car makers market leaders after Chrysler came out with the minivan in the early 80's? When a company is succesful at making money in a market with a specific service, other companies will jump in. Car makers could have made profits without making minivan's but it would not be sound business judgement. Look at how popular minvan's have become. . You will have those who are loyal to Westjet continue flying Westjet and people who want Aeroplan miles flying Zip. Will Zip be started and if it is will it last? Who knows, but AC is just doing what any business in any industry would do, go where profits are being made.

I am all for Westjet and for Air Canada, as a devotee to the Airline Industry I do not like one better or worse and have praised and complained about them all.
 
Guest

RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Wed Jan 09, 2002 12:36 am

Superdawg wrote: "Who knows, but AC is just doing what any business in any industry would do, go where profits are being made."

They're going where somebody else is making a profit, but where their own odds of making one aren't so good. If Zip were intended to make a profit, why not set up bases in some of the key locations where Westjet has little or no presence -- Toronto Pearson, Ottawa, Montreal and Halifax?

Instead, they're going into Calgary and Hamilton, where the market will be flooded with cheap seats beyond the level of demand. Worse yet, they're going in knowing full well that mainline carriers have had a lousy record of making their low-cost subsidiaries work. If they replace all mainline flights on a certain city-pair (e.g., YVR-YYC) with Zip flights, they still have a higher cost structure than Westjet, and would still have to sort out what to do with passengers wanting to make connections. If they operate a mix, they'll be cannibalizing their mainline and regional services.

And the most crucial task: they will have to replicate Westjet's 'fun' environment, not just for passengers, but also within the workplace. With Robert Milton and Steve Smith at the helm, that will be easier said than done. Can anyone imagine either of them pulling off a Kelleher-style stunt, like Milton showing up for a party in a dress, or Smith giving a speech with a martini or a Bloody Mary or something spilled down the front of his suit?

 
superdawg
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 1:45 am

RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Wed Jan 09, 2002 1:20 am

Mcdougald. I fully agree with what you have to say about past airlines trying to make LCC's and about Air Canada's costs hindering their profit making abilities. Who knows if they can make a profit but where another company thrives you will get others who will try to make money there as well. As for the east they have already made an LCC with Tango, plus they have no real competition out there so their mainline is probably making money on the flights with no real need for Zip out there.

 
Guest

RE: Tango To Be A Critical Factor In His Airline's Col

Wed Jan 09, 2002 2:01 am

AirCanadaGuy...You're right on the money.

Hmmmm, I still say Angus should leave well enough alone and opt to open a chain of Scottish Gay Beauty Spas. Herbal Tea & Hagus, anyone?

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