aa777flyer
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AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 3:05 am

American Airlines is currently only operating 18 of the 30 717's it aquired when AA merged TWA into its fleet on 12/2/01. Now it looks as though AA has chosen to ground all remaining of the 717's by 2/1/02. This will result in the loss of approximately 200 more jobs. The 717 being incompatable with the rest of the AA fleet is the main reason. AA has also already grounded a number of the 757/767 (TWA) fleet as well.



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Ndebele
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 3:06 am

Now THIS is a stupid decission!
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 3:14 am

Yeah, I can't figure that one out either. My only guess is that the acquisition costs to replace the F-100' is too high.

Incompatability? The 717 has a hell of a lot more in common with the 200+ MD-80's they already have, versus the F-100'2. Go figure.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
HB-IQF
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 3:15 am

CORRECT !!!  Innocent
 
aa777flyer
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 3:16 am

True the 717 is more common with the 300 plus MD80 in fleet. But it is cheaper on a per aircraft basis to maintain a fleet of 75 F100 then just 30 717. This is due to parts inventories, MX costs, crew training costs etc....
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CPDC10-30
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 3:17 am

Are the aircraft leased or purchased? If they're leased it could be a ploy to renegiotiate the contract with more favourable terms to reflect the current market conditions. Otherwise, if the merger with Hawaiian/Aloha goes through I would see them as a client to replace the Aloha 732s and go all-717 on the island hopping fleet.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 3:25 am

No surprise IMO. Rumours have suggested that 6 of the 717s will go to Impulse, the others likely to Alohawiian.
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vfw614
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 4:04 am

Compatibility / commonality has little to do with the fuselage heritage of the B717, which is probably the biggest "commonality" with AA MD80s. We are talking about the engines, cockpit-layout, cabin interior etc. - and I guess there is no commonality with regards to this at all, making the B717 an orphan in AA's fleet and 30 are just too small a number to keep them.

After mergers / take-overs, airlines have even disposed of aircraft which were exactly the same "type" they already had in their inventory, but had different specifications that made them unsuitable.
 
aamd11
Posts: 863
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 4:21 am

True, many airlines including AATWA have disposed of the same aircraft.. AA dispoding of the TWA 757s cos they are PW, not RR like the AA ones...
The 767s are also PW, AA are GE, again more incompatability......
the airframe is basically the same, but businesses like AA dont give a monkeys about the airframe, training costs for future crews... maintainance on another type of engine (the main reason they are to get rid of TWA 75/67s...) and all that....

having that few a/c isnt worth it in such a big ailrline which also has 737-800s which are not too much bigger... they have too many types, and one of them had to go... and it was always to be the 717, instead of removing 200/300+ MD80s, or 100+ 738s or 75 F100s...
 
akelley728
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 9:58 am

Aa777flyer:

I see from your profile that you work for AA. When is American going to make an annoucement regarding the 717?

It's just I've search all around the internet and have found nothing to substatiate your claim. I was also in St. Louis a couple of weeks ago and saw a number of 717s painted in the AA/TWA livery. Why would they do that if they were thinking of grounding them soon?

It's not that I don't believe you, but some additional proof would be nice!
 
aa777flyer
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 12:58 pm

American plans to ground 717s, bump TWA workers, union says

By Cynthia Wilson – St. Louis Post-Dispatch – 1/4/02

American Airlines plans to ground its remaining 18 Boeing 717 jets - a move that would leave another 61 pilots and up to 191 flight attendants at TWA Airlines LLC out of work next month, according to the union representing pilots at TWA. Since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, which severely depressed the airlines' passenger traffic, 229 pilots and 834 flight attendants at TWA have been furloughed or given notices. The upcoming furloughs, set to take effect Feb. 4, will be the result of fleet changes, said Capt. Glenn Stieneke, a spokesman for the TWA branch of the Air Line Pilots Association. Stieneke said ALPA learned of American's plans to ground the newest airplane type in TWA's fleet Thursday through a daily communications update the Allied Pilots Association, which represents American's pilots, sent to its members. A spokesman for American would say only that the airline is in the "final stages" of reaching a broad fleet plan with Boeing and would make an announcement when a deal is reached. The Boeing 717 is the newest aircraft type in TWA's fleet, having entered service in April 2000. Earlier, American took 12 Boeing 717s out of service.

http://home.post-dispatch.com/channel/pdweb.nsf/TodayFriday/86256A0E0068FE5086256B3700371FF0
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mls515
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 1:10 pm



I am also surprised. Not only have they bothered to repaint them, they've made them meet MRTC standards as well.

I'm glad I got to fly one I guess.
 
mls515
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 2:31 pm

clarification: fly on one
I'm no pilot.
 
flightsimfreak
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 2:36 pm

Dyslexic me thought that you ment they were going to ground all 717 planes in their fleet... I don't think that they have exactly 717 planes... I was thinking OMG, AA is quiting!
 
Pilothica737
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 2:42 pm

see this why I hate AA! They always have to go arround changing stuff!
 Big thumbs up
 
Guest

RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 2:45 pm

I think TW bought and financed its fleet of 717s.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 3:20 pm

Are these 717s tempoarily grounded, or are they being returned to lessors?

If they are looking for new homes, it will probably be quite a while before all 30 go onwards to new airlines. What will this mean for the 717 line?
 
LuckySevens
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 3:30 pm

I guess the question is now:
What won't AA remove?
757s....removed
767s....removed
717s....removed
DC9.....removed

It's a pity that TWA does not still have their 741/2s...AA could have grounded those, too!
 
penguinflies
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 5:01 pm

TWA's aircraft are owned by Boeing Capitol and some group (WFBN, FSBU). Names from the Jet Aircraft Census.

I guess it is cheaper to use planes that AA owns (F-100) than leased ones (717). AA just devalued the F-100 fleet the past few quarters on their balance sheet.

IMO, i would rather see them change stuff then hear about them losing plenty of money or on the verge of Ch. 11 like some other airlines.

and doesn't AA own much (over 70%) of their fleet while TWA leased most of their fleet (95%). It is cheaper and more efficient to send a plane that you own then one you lease.
 
LV
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 5:17 pm

Hum, DL is not Air Tran's worst nightmare, AA is. Grounding the fleet can't be good for airlines already operating the 717, less parts. Of course, if these birds get picked up by Aloha/Hawaiian, Impulse, Air Tran, Midwest Express and others, it might lead to future orders, saving the 717 program and the Long Beach plant.

After all, what were the chances of AA ordering any more 717s to begin with.
 
N400QX
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2002 6:45 pm

What a shame that they're dumping the 717... American should buy more, IMO, to compliment their 30-some fleet. So much for flying the 712 around in the continental States (no, I won't go on ValuJet).
 
717fan
Posts: 1975
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2002 3:42 am

I don't think that the grounding of AA's 717 fleet has much to do with future of the 717. Boeing is knowing quiet for a long time that AA won't go for the 717...that grounding is logical but sad for me...you'll see, the orders for the 717 will come in, not as much, but they will come...
717fan
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2002 3:56 am

717fan, I think a bit different. The big problem for Boeing is now - assuming that AA will retire all B712 - that 30 really young (you could just say factory-fresh) B717 are on the second-hand market at lower prices than Boeing can demand for a new build. The few b717 operators will first take these aircraft until they will order new ones. 30 B717 equal to a production run of 20 months at a rate of 1.5 frames a month. This means a one- or even a one-a-half-year long thirst period for Boeing. Now the question is: is Boeing willing enough to bear the costs of such a small production rate? That there will be orders is no question - but will the ordered amount be big enough to keep the production?

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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Kiwi dave
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2002 4:19 am

It will be interesting to see if QANTAS Link gets some of them.
 
CcrlR
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2002 4:36 am

This is the same thing like Reno Air and AirCal. This is why American is like the monster airline. They want to get all the small airlines and later on take their planes out of their fleet. this is the same thing with American with Reno Air and AirCal.
"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
 
Alaskaairlines
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2002 4:46 am

Sad indeed.

-Dmitry
 
Pilothica737
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2002 5:38 am

if AA keeps going like this, then there won't be anymore planes to fly!
 
717fan
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2002 3:55 pm

Flying-Tiger
What you said could be true, you're right. But, as I stated in some other topics, I don't think that Boeing is put a lot of money in an aircraft that has no future...and thats why I said that Boeing knows for a long time that AA doesn't want these 717's. So Boeing decided to continue with the 717 in knowing this... I am sure that they have some strong interest in the aircraft.
And a lot of airlines (like Midwest Express) wants really new aircrafts...
717fan
 
The777Man
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2002 4:06 pm

I saw N713TW on 5Jan02 at LAX in full AA colors AND with full AA titles and markings so I guess that they are keeping some of the Ex-TWA aircraft. The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
aatripleseven
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2002 5:50 pm

In purchasing smaller airlines, I don't think their main objective is to acquire new aircraft. They can purchase new aircraft cheaper if this is their intention. American's purchases of TWA, Reno Air and Air Cal were done with the goal to expand to new markets and increase their market share. American is optimizing it's fleet to become more efficient.

The sad fact is that people had to lose their jobs in the process. I'm sure these people initially thought their jobs were going to be saved with the AA buyout. All in all, it's better that these few people become unemployed rather than the massive amounts if TWA had not been purchased and continued operating independently. TWA was fighting a losing battle and would have been dead in the water following 9/11.
 
akelley728
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Wed Jan 09, 2002 11:48 pm

Aa777flyer:

Thanks for the link to the article.

I flew out of St. Louis yesterday and I only saw a couple of 717s. Last month they were all over the place.

Does this mean we'll be seeing true AA aircraft on some of the former TWA routes?

Very sad indeed...
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Thu Jan 10, 2002 1:22 am

Drove past the 717 hanger at STL Monday and saw no
less than six 717's parked in front. On a Monday!  Sad
Coast to Coast and Border to Border, Ozark Flies YOUR Way!
 
woodsboy
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Thu Jan 10, 2002 2:44 am

When AA took over Reno, the initial press and company reaction was that it was a good thing for AA and a good thing for Reno employees to now be part of a bigger stronger company. Of course it didnt take too long for AA to start treating Reno pilots like bastard children when they brought them into the bottom of the seniority lists at a lower pay rate then disposed of the Reno aircraft and many of the Reno routes. I realize that this move by AA had absolutely NOTHING to do with "helping" Reno or helping its employees, it was to gain access to profitable N-S West Coast routes and slots in coveted airports like Orange County, San Jose, Ontario and LAX.

When AA took over TWA all the press and company line touted how TWA would now be viable and have the strength of AA behind it to remain competitive, so I guess it comes as no surprise that AA had no intention of acquiring TWA for any other reason other than to eliminate a weak competitor, gain access to routes and slots then dispose of the fleet.

My beef is not with any airline seeking to improve their own situation or even absorbing a weak or floundering company (although fundamentally it still sux), its that they never get up at a news conference and say anything like that. We should all be (us most of all) smart enough to know that when UA was wanting to get its claws into US Airways, it wasnt so that a combined UA/US would come out of the merger stronger and more competitive, it was so that UA would come out of the deal having killed a major competitor in the East/Trans Atlantic market, reduced competition and gained slots at places like DCA and the shuttle corridor that are very limited.

AA didnt want to see the TWA brand survive even though thats what they said at the beginning. They werent proud to be acquiring one of the oldest and most recognized names in the industry, they were happy to be ridding the country of yet another airline that they would have to compete with.

How this stuff gets by the Justice Dept I will never know.
 
Greg
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Thu Jan 10, 2002 3:04 am

A lot of you act like airlines are run for the benefit of enthusiasts. They are run for the shareholders.

TWA is so lucky that AA came in. Otherwise, they would never have made it even another month. It was either go under or get acquired. The thousands who made it to the AA payroll will all agree that a paycheck is a hell of a lot better than unemployment.
 
CannedSpam
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Thu Jan 10, 2002 1:04 pm

Hmmm.... Do I want to pay $190,000 per month per 717, or would I rather pay $90,000 per month for a MD-80. I'd take the MD-80 lease rate and that is what AA is doing too. The lease rates were way too high and AA is trying to simplify their fleet pure and simple.
 
Fleet Service
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Thu Jan 10, 2002 4:30 pm

Blah blah blah crap crap crap.
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
acidradio
Crew
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Thu Jan 10, 2002 5:14 pm

I could be mistaken, but isn't the F100 basically unsupported, like in order to get parts for an F100, you have to k-ball them off another F100?

Then again, the AA F100's aren't extremely old so it's probably not time to go shopping for a replacement just yet.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
717fan
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Fri Jan 11, 2002 4:40 pm

AA has stated in article from Reuters from 10.01.02 that they are still in dicussions the fate of their 717's. NOTHING is decided as of yet....
 
Fleet Service
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Fri Jan 11, 2002 4:49 pm


AMR mulls fate of its Boeing 717 fleet

By Chris Stetkiewicz


SEATTLE, Jan 10 (Reuters) - AMR Corp. , parent of No. 1 carrier American Airlines, said on Thursday it was reviewing whether to keep 30 Boeing Co. 717 jetliners or return them to their leaseholders as it evaluates its long-term aircraft needs.

"That is something that we continue to discuss with Boeing," said AMR spokesman Al Becker. "The 717 is a superb airplane. The issue is where those aircraft fit into the fleet in the long term."

AMR inherited its fleet of 106-seat 717s, 24 on lease from Boeing and six leased from Dublin-based Pembroke Group Ltd., when it acquired Trans World Airlines last year.

But AMR already has 74 similar-sized Fokker F-100s, which it plans to keep. As it strives to streamline its fleet by eliminating overlapping models, it could jettison the 717.

"The Fokkers still have many years of life left and they give us a lot of flexibility in terms of routes," Becker said. "The oldest have been in our fleet for 10 or 11 years, so it's a relatively young fleet, a very good fleet and a very large fleet."

Fort Worth, Texas-based AMR, which now buys only Boeing jets, is eliminating the aging 727 tri-jet from its fleet but is still taking deliveries of 737 and 757 narrow-bodies and 777 wide-bodies.

"Part of the process at American is over time simplifyingour fleet so we end up with fewer types, which makes our fleet more efficient and more reliable," Becker said.

The carrier has reduced its fleet by 20 percent since the Sept. 11 hijack attacks slashed air travel demand, and the combined American fleet will keep falling to 854 by the end of 2002 from 881 now.

Milwaukee-based regional carrier Midwest Express Airlines , which ordered 20 717s last year, was considering taking some of the AMR 717s instead.

"We've had some meetings with (Boeing) but we still do not have a final agreement as to how we are going to do the deal," Midwest Express Treasurer Dennis O'Reilly told Reuters by telephone. "It could still be new, used or some combination thereof."

O'Reilly said retrofitting 717s with Midwest Express' two-by-two seating from the standard three-by-two configuration would involve only "minor" costs, as would the improved kitchens needed for the airline's premium food service.

Chicago-based Boeing last month cut production of the slow-selling 717, which had been rolling off the assembly line in Long Beach, California, at about four a month.

Officials at Boeing, which bases its commercial jet operations in Seattle, declined to release the new production rate but industry analysts speculated it was about 1.5 a month.
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sat Jan 12, 2002 12:18 am

Well now, it looks as if the 717 still has a small chance with AA after all. And just when I started to minutely believe all the 717 nay-sayers here on this board. Even AA admitted that the 717 is 'superb'. The main issue is cost...if AA can get Boeing & Pembroke to re-negotiate the lease rates, the 717 may have a bright future with the carrier. Granted, the 717 will have to find its niche with American, but the F-100s will be with them for another 8-9 years yet. Even tho there's no spare parts support for the Fokkers, AA can still get more F-100s on the second-hand market if they choose to do so. Another possible scenario is AA dumping all the F-100s and getting more 717s, however this is highly unlikely as per the Reuters article, and given the post-9/11 aftermath. As of now, nothing is written in stone, and we'll all just have to wait & see what happens. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
aa777flyer
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sat Jan 12, 2002 2:02 am

Just as a side note..AA will make a revised fleet plan announcement on 1/18/02. From what I understand several outstanding orders will be cancelled (757/767) and most future 738 delivery slots will go to QF. AA will continue to ground several airplanes over the next several months and furlough more employees. Since traffic continues to fall and yields continue to plummet, this downsizing will continue for the future for some time.
The TSA was created to make the post office look efficient!
 
Greg
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sat Jan 12, 2002 3:27 am

AA had no choice but to say they were 'suberb' aircraft. Are they suppose to say they are second rate?
Who would lease them if they made that statement?
 
717fan
Posts: 1975
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 10:51 am

RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Sat Jan 12, 2002 3:40 am

But otherwise if they would return the aircraft in the near term, why are they repainting the 717's?. If so, they throw the money out of the window....
 
JAL
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Wed Jan 16, 2002 11:25 pm

Why doesn't AA just retire thier F100 and replace them with newer 717?
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
Boiler Special
Posts: 133
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Wed Jan 16, 2002 11:43 pm

It's official... however all 717s won't be out of the fleet until June. The aircraft will be returned to Boeing. Check AA's 4th quarter earnings (aka huge loss) report available at amrcorp.com

-Kevin
 
flashmeister
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Thu Jan 17, 2002 2:15 am

Since traffic continues to fall and yields continue to plummet, this downsizing will continue for the future for some time.

I would tend to disagree that traffic is continuing to fall.

Yes, traffic took a big hit post-9/11, but it's starting to stabilize and improve.

Look at the numbers... I'll do it month by month for October, November, and December 2001, and compare RPMs year over year for American (including TWA).

October: 7,935,020 RPMs for 10/2001, a decrease of 32.27% over 10/2000.

November: 8,378,903 RPMs for 11/2001, a decrease of 25.04% over 11/2000.

December: 9,083,863 RPMs for 12/2001, a decrease of 17.36% over 12/2000.

You can see that RPMs are growing in Q4 to the tune of almost 15%, not declining. This also doesn't take into consideration American's post-9/11 cuts, which were actually 18.41%. American's load factor for December was 67.21%, just 1.67% below December 2000.

American's ASMs for the quarter are pretty stable. The airline cut 1 million ASMs in November, but restored them for December, to hover around 13.5 million.

The industry as a whole is also getting its feet back. The 10 majors posted a 25.63% decline in RPMs in October, compared with 13.58% in December.

Now yields are a different matter. AA is still bleeding dollars, but they are partially in control of that part of the equation by controlling costs, which is turning out to be a more herculean effort than once thought there.

It's true that AA is nowhere near in the shape that they were last year, but to predict further route cuts and capacity cuts isn't really looking at it. AA is growing, albeit slowly and painfully, but I doubt that there will be further capacity cuts in the future... but there will be furloughs probably, and there should be to right the finances in this downturn.

(My data source was Howard Miller, from his spreadsheet posted in the subscriber section of Planebusiness.com)
 
User avatar
yyz717
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RE: AA To Ground All 717 In Fleet

Thu Jan 17, 2002 7:14 am

This could be a good thing for the 717 program. Suddenly 30 717's are on the market....if Boeing can place them w customers, some of those customers will buy some new-build's from Boeing.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.