racko
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LH A300/310 Replacement

Sat Jan 12, 2002 8:21 am

Hi,

some time ago it was discussed if LH will buy 757s or A330s as replacement for their domestic/european widebody fleet of A300s and A310s ..

I think Airbus will make something like an a330Domestic as replacement ... it would be a huge loss for them if one of the most important airbus customers introduces the 757 in their fleet. After finishing the A340-600 and a318 programs their should be some free developers  Big grin

I'd love see an A330 in LH colors, but a 757 would also look good.

What do you all think ?
 
777-200
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Sat Jan 12, 2002 8:41 am

The A330 would be cool
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777236ER
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Sat Jan 12, 2002 8:47 am

The A330 would be too heavy. The 753 would be good, but i don't think they're in the market for narrowbodies.
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vfw614
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Sat Jan 12, 2002 8:49 am

This has been discussed over the last two or three days in the "LH 767" thread.

Both the Boeing 757-200ERX (for mid-hauls) and the Boeing 757-300 (for domestics) have been ruled out by LH. also the A330-500 (A330 shrink/light) as LH thinks the aircraft is "too heavy". Lufthansa is now leaning towards an Airbus A330-200 order to replace their own A340-200s and Condor's B767-300. This would leave them without a replacement for the A300/310 domestic/European routes. However, the A300s will probably soldier on for a couple of more years as LH has even added a second hand airframe last year (ex Emirates).
 
hkg_clk
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Sat Jan 12, 2002 8:57 am

Given the potential market for 767/A300/A310 replacement aircraft, why doesn't Airbus develop some new type for airlines? This could gain them lots of market share.
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racko
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Sat Jan 12, 2002 10:19 am

maybe they will do after their current projects (A318, A340-600). What about the A300 fuselage and a smaller wing, maybe an updated A300 wing, or a shrinked A330 wing ? This should be what LH (and many others airlines i think) needs...
 
nfx
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Sat Jan 12, 2002 10:20 am

airbus has quite a lot of work to do with the a380, the a318 and the new a340s...

perhaps they don`t see a market for a/c filling the gap between the a321 and the a332...
 
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yyz717
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Sat Jan 12, 2002 10:57 am

The A300-600/A310 are still middle-aged at worst. LH would get a much bigger ROI simply by keeping them in service another 10 years minimum. There's no need to replace them anytime soon.

LH has a new emerging threat on its horizon: Ryanair at Hahn. Wanna bet Ryanair will be flying 100+ Euro flights/day from Hahn within 5 years....seriously eroding LH yield ex-FRA on many A300/A310 routes.

Now is not the time for fanciful A300/A310 replacement fantasies by LH.

IMHO.


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karliboy
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Sat Jan 12, 2002 6:44 pm

Good..i hope ryanair give LH a good run for their money...it's not good to have a monopoly in any region of business..unless you're the monopoliser!
 
racko
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Sat Jan 12, 2002 7:06 pm

i doubt that ryanair will steal LH much of it's marketshare. Hahn is in the nowhere (ask 100 people in germany where "hahn" is and the 99 not aviation-interessted people will say "what the f*ck is hahn?") - it's not well connected to the train system, and it tooks you about 120 minutes with the train from frankfurt-city to hahn, while you need 5-10 minutes with the train from frankfurt city to FRA.

 
UK_Dispatcher
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Sat Jan 12, 2002 7:49 pm

Racko - do germans always answer questions using that kind of language?!

I thought only I did that!
 
gerardo
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Sat Jan 12, 2002 9:11 pm

If the market for such an aircraft is that big, why doesn't neither Boeing nor Airbus offer somthing for that market?

In my opinion, the market isn't really that big. So either stretch a narrowbody or shrink a widebody.

Gerardo
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yyz717
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Sun Jan 13, 2002 1:02 am

The market does not appear to be that big. LH and SIA have indicated an interest in an A300/A310/767 but few other airlines.

Boeing and AI have offered the 771 and 335 but no airline was interested.

The 763 is still selling relatively well.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
cba
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Sun Jan 13, 2002 1:05 am

Boeing has several planes offered in this market, the 757, 763, and 764. LH would be best off with a combined 757/767 order. The 764 can hold a little under 300 people in a domestic configuration, perfect for an A300 replacement. It's not as heavy as the A330 either. The 753, holding about 220-230 pax would be a perfect A310 replacement, but LH seems to not like narrowbodies. The 753 would be a cash cow for them though. Look at CO and NW. Their 753's will be raking in cash on high-density domestic flights, however, LH seems to be stubborn about only ordering Airbuses. The A330-200 would be a bad choice, as it is way too heavy.
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Sun Jan 13, 2002 1:10 am

Pre September 11th, LH could still afford to shun the economically more viable 757-300 because she´s not a widebody - can they still do that in today´s changed environment? On the other hand, for exactly the same reason any plans for a new plane which isn´t absolutely necessary would be shelved I guess.

Daniel Smile
 
od-bwh
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Mon Jan 14, 2002 2:50 pm

LH can't operate B757's for one reason: this will cost them more. LH's fleet is made of an almost all airbus fleet. That's why they will be looking for an Airbus replacement for the A300/A310 fleet. I've heared that Airbus is developing an A330-100 that will look much similar to the A300 but with A330 wings. Airbus should rest assured by now, knowing that LH is a loyal customer: they have picked the A380 as well!
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yyz717
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Mon Jan 14, 2002 5:50 pm

A 331 will be much more expensive to operate than a 753....the commonality with the rest of the AI fleet will not make up the difference.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
od-bwh
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RE: YYZ-717

Mon Jan 14, 2002 6:04 pm

Do you hava an idea why whould be so expensive??
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Flying-Tiger
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Mon Jan 14, 2002 6:10 pm

The A331 would be too heavy for the routes thus the direct operating costs increase. however a small B757-300 fleet isn´t economical for LH either, they need a minimum of 12-15 planes to introduce a new type.

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airsicknessbag
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Mon Jan 14, 2002 8:36 pm

Even if LH is not the 100% shareholder in Condor anymore, the the five LH units´ (mainline, CityLine, Cargo, Condor, CondorBerlin) fleets can still be regarded as a whole - and Condor operates a substantial 757 fleet, 13 of them -300 series.

Daniel Smile
 
Tom_EDDF
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Mon Jan 14, 2002 8:36 pm

Lufthansa refuses to buy the 335 because it's too heavy for their needs, please keep in mind the the 335 offers even more range than the 332 and will therefore be more an entry level long range a/c than a suitable commuter aircraft in the way LH uses the 300 today.

I don't see LH buying any 767 or 757 aircraft in the future because there is no or little (condor) commonality with existing aircraft and the fleet of 767s and 757s would be to small to make such a deal viable.

The 753 won't also be a cash cow for LH because it is not able to load as much cargo as a widebody, especially the A300, and the turn around times on short haul operations would be to long. Also LH travellers prefer widebody aircraft. Even the cabin of their A320s is wider than that of the 753.

Rumors say LH will buy some A330-200s to replace the 342s and A300-600Rs currently used on flights to africa and the middle east, maybe Condor will participate in that deal to replace their 767-300s.

IMHO, AI should update the existing A300-600 frame with new materials, an improved wing and engines and a fbw cockpit. The A310-300 should be discontinued.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Tue Jan 15, 2002 12:05 am

I think we may see serious consideration by Airbus in a few years for a A300B variant that uses the fuselage of the A300B4-600R but with new engines, an all-new low-drag wing, FBW controls and A330 cockpit.

The plane could become surprisingly popular, especially since I see many current A300B4 and A300-600 operators wanting this plane.
 
Udo
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Tue Jan 15, 2002 12:30 am

There haven't been any new orders for the A310 for about five years now (last one delivered in 98) , so it's status is more or less discontinued...
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johnnybgoode
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RE: LH A300/310 Replacement

Tue Jan 15, 2002 12:37 am

well, there was a lighter version of the A330-100 (or -500) which was not as heavy as the longrange derivative, however, certainly still heavier than the 757.
but there are additional reasons, which still make the A330 unsuitable for LH´s shorthaul needs.
the turnaround time should not be a problem since LH turn around the 753 on lease within one hour, and DE manages to do this all the time.
but the A330 is not only too heavy, its wingspan is far too great. it would only fit on gate positions designed for the A330/340s and 777s and 747s, thus occupying more space than a 757, 767 or A300. and that is definitively a problem on shorthauls, when also smaller airports with less capacity are served, and airports as congested as FRA and LHR.

cheers
daniel
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