rj777
Posts: 1549
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

767-400: Is There A Future?

Wed Jan 16, 2002 8:02 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but CO and Delta are the only two buyers of the 767-400. Does this bird have a future?

 
airplanetire
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sun May 13, 2001 11:59 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Wed Jan 16, 2002 9:21 am

Continental and Delta are the only buyers of the 764 I'm pretty sure. As for it's future, on these forums I haven't heard good things.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Wed Jan 16, 2002 9:35 am

The 764 is built on the same line as the 762/763. It will be offered as long as the 763.

Don't forget....the first CO 762 in 2000 was the 1st one built since 96.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
RJ_Delta
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Wed Jan 16, 2002 9:44 am

Hi:

I think that Kenya Airways has ordered 2 767-400ER for 2003. to start to fly on long haul routes.

In my opinion new airlines would order the 764 in this year or the next.

Best Regards,
RJ_Delta.
 
woodsboy
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 5:59 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Wed Jan 16, 2002 10:04 am

Yes, those are the three airlines that have orders/ options for the 764. Kenya Airways wont be buying more than 2 or 3 I dont imagine and Delta has all but three of theirs that are currently scheduled for deliver although I think they have some options. Continental still has 10 yet to be delivered.
 
2cn
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:30 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Wed Jan 16, 2002 11:43 am

Delta is getting two more of their 764s this month.. which if they are only getting one more, leaves one more to come... I hope they get more of the planes.
 
Thumper
Posts: 520
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2001 2:12 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:10 pm

Don't know for sure but I sure hope so! Have flown Delta's 764 quite a few times and it is a great aircraft! I like it much better than the 763!
 
tullamarine
Posts: 1614
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:14 pm

I thought Kenya had converted to 763s following the cancellation of the 764ERX.
717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772/E/W,300,310,319,320/1,332/3,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,SF3,ATR
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:15 pm

Kenya still has 3 764's on order. Upon delivery, their 763's will move to regional service.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
TP313
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 1:37 am

What puzzles me is the reason why boeing went for the 764
instead of developing a 777-100?
When we compare the technical specs of the 764 to the
Airbus 332 this one comes ahead in all fields. The only
reason one would choose the 764 would be fleet commonality.
But if Boeing had developed the 777-100 it would
have by now a product superior to the Airbus.
Seems to me that these days Boeing is run by cost accountants
and PR executives instead of engineers...
 
Jer32382
Posts: 297
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 10:35 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 2:08 am

Here's my 2 cents worth. I don't really see the need for the 767-400 now that we have the 777-200 and 300. I agree with those who think a 100 derivative for the 777 should have been developed. In my opinion Boeing would be better off scrapping the 67-400 and going after a medium haul 777. Just my thought.
 
ContinentalFan
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 2:47 am

RE: Continental & ALPA: Match Made In Hell!

Thu Jan 17, 2002 2:20 am

A shortened 777 would be heavier and less efficient (e.g. more expensive to run) than a stretched 767 (see also the hypothetical A330-500 as another example). As it is, the 764 is the perfect DC-10/L-1011 replacement if you want to stay w/ Boeing. Also also pointed out previously, the 767 assembly line can turn out any variant basically on demand, so there's much less chance of the 764 being a potential orphan like the 717.

Mike.
 
gmonney
Posts: 2076
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2001 2:59 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 2:21 am

I agree, go with the fresh thinking of the 777, not this drawn out old 67 crap, no offence, but people want new and improved.

Grant

Drive it like you stole it!
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 2:31 am

but people want new and improved.

I guess I was dreaming then when I read about the 764s improved cockpit, cabin, wing, more use of composites, etc...

One of the beauties of the 764 is that Boeing doesn't have to sell a lot of them to come out ahead. Making a new product from existing facilities is a pretty compelling bargain.
 
User avatar
lindy field
Posts: 2939
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:52 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 2:41 am

Boeing is reported to be studying development and market potential of a 763NG. I think this could be a money maker for Boeing if the product is a good one.
 
woodsboy
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 5:59 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 3:28 am

One thing to note about the 764, as far as Delta goes is that the 764 has less range than either the MD-11, 763ER or the 777-200ER so this a/c cannot replace the MD-11 or fly the long haul routes that the 763, 777 and MD-11 can. Perhaps this will be addressed but I would say that the 764 with this particular characteristic would put it out of consideration as a replacement for the MD-11 and not even able to compete with an A330.
 
ContinentalFan
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 2:47 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 4:32 am

Woodsboy,

Delta uses the 764 for high-capacity domestic routes only, so the range is not a big deal. The cabins are also configured for domestic use. It was not meant to replace the MD-11 @ Delta (the 777 does that), it was meant to replace the L-1011, which often flew high density routes like ATL-MCO.

As for competing with the A330, it comes close in range (of course it's less), but I don't think it was meant to really compete with it anyways. IMO, the A330 slots somewhere between the 767 and 777 in size/range.

Mike.
 
woodsboy
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 5:59 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 5:41 am

I do realize that at Delta the 764 was meant to replace the L-1011, but to add a type that has what seems to be limited usefullness (unable to stand in on long routes that the 763, MD-11 and 777 fly), I wonder why the 764 was choosen. It seems like more 777s would have done the trick and been able to fly other long range routes without adding another type to the stable.

Perhaps its due to the pilot contract issues Delta has had with the 777 (and the reason why they only have 8 in the fleet right now) or a real sweetheart deal from Boeing, who knows.

On your other point, that the 764 was not meant to compete with the A330; If this is true, then that would seem to be a totally insane decision by Boeing to produce an aircraft of the same size and capacity that cant meet the long range of the A330, automatically takes it out of the running.

With all this said, it looks like the MD-11 is really the best long haul type for Delta and they will still be around for 6-8 more years.....
 
2cn
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:30 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 6:06 am

WoodsBoy- the 777 would not have been a better choice over the 764, since they still wouldnt have been able to fill in for the others on the Europe routes. They would've still had them equiped in the domestic config- firstclass and coach- and no BizElite since they are flown on high traffic markets. In the current config on the 764, it seats 10 more people then the 777. Delta did not want the BizElite on the routes, which was why the ATL-HNL was ended when it came down to the pilots wanted the BizElite seats for their crew rest seats. Delta did not want to waste the space.

The issue with the pilots and the 777 has been resolved, and they are taking more deliveries of the 777-one to come this month and go directly to GSO for the mods.

And no, the MD11 is not the best long haul plane for Delta. Delta is very unhappy with the performance of this plane, which is why they are getting rid of it so early into the planes' life.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 7:10 am

I was at Ft Lauderdale recently and saw numerous Delta 764s. For one, its a beautiful plane, but it also appears that Delta are using it extensively on high density, leisure routes to Florida so who cares if it has less range than a 777-200. As far as its primary customers are concerned, the aircraft is doing what they want it to do.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
2cn
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:30 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 7:20 am

Jay- yes, that is exactly what Delta is using it for- high density, domestic leisure routes and high density international leisure routes to Mexico and South America.... where the range factor isnt a problem, since it isnt meant to go over to Europe at all, which is where the range would be a problem.
 
RedEye
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2000 5:43 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 8:18 am

Seems like this plane makes sense for Delta, which uses it for domestic/short leisure routes. But what about Continental? Wasn't the 764 intended to be a lower capacity alternative to the 777 on international routes? If the 764 has range issues, then it doesn't seem like the best plane for future IAH European expansion for routes that can't support 777 capacity. I'd be a little disappointed to see the 762 making up the majority of future European flights from IAH when E is finished. (Although I'd still welcome the expansion!)
 
CF-CPI
Posts: 1323
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2000 12:54 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 8:23 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a hypothetical BizElite + economy configuration similar to CO's 767-400s, wouldn't DL have the option of operating the -400 to Europe if desired, especially from CVG or JFK?
 
mikeymike
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 6:52 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 8:35 am

ummmmm Lets set a couple of facts straight here!

1) 7008 is NOT going to GSO for any modifications. The ship is delivering from the facotry in a 3-3-3 E/C config but will NOT have the overhead crew rests. The F/A's will sit in the back and the pilot will sit in BusElite.

2) The 764 does NOT fly to Latin or South America. It flies to HNL, SFO, LAX, SLC, FLL, MCO, TPA?, ATL, and LGA.

3) The 764 has a range 500nm less than that of the 763.

4) The 764 in its current config does not meet the ALPA crew rest policy. For that matter, none of the DL A/C except 7002 (when it re-enters service) will. The 764 will eventually be put back on ATL-HNL service once DL incorporates an ALPA approved crew rest in a domestically configured A/C.

CF-CPI...your hypotehtical situation is correct.

 
mikeymike
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 6:52 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 8:39 am

DL is not getting rid of the MD-11. It has tried, but to opt out of its lease commitments would be too costly. Performance and maintenance issues are problems but DL will be keeping the MD-11 for a good 6-9 years. 813 was just painted in new colors!
 
2cn
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:30 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 9:29 am

1) 7008 is NOT going to GSO for any modifications. The ship is delivering from the facotry in a 3-3-3 E/C config but will NOT have the overhead crew rests. The F/A's will sit in the back and the pilot will sit in BusElite.

Well the info I have has said it was going to GSO... this came from someone who is generaly quite reliable for fleet information.. though it definately makes more sense to have it already set up in the new config right from Boeing, so this guy may have been wrong about ship 7008 this time.

2) The 764 does NOT fly to Latin or South America. It flies to HNL, SFO, LAX, SLC, FLL, MCO, TPA?, ATL, and LGA.

It may not now, but I do remember checking flights at one time and did see them flying south of the border... just figured they had them on the route still, hadnt checked lately.

As to the distance problems, doesnt Continental fly it non stop from IAH to HNL?? Certainly if it can fly that, it can make it over to Europe.
 
TOMASKEMPNER
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed May 02, 2001 3:21 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 10:41 am

764 is Boeing´s rival for the beautiful A332. I think we all know who is the winner here.

Besides I think that the 764 is quite a failure, becuase although 764 is built on the same line as the 762/763, Boeing invested billions on research, that I´m sure they won´t get back.

Such a pity the 400 version is so unpopular, considering its brothers are the No.1 in transatlantic ops.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5450
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 1:58 pm

tomaskempner must be smoking something if he believes that Boeing spent billions to develop the 767-400. The bottom line is that it didn't cost Boeing very much to develop the 767-400, because it's basically just a stretch with a new wing and some updates. That's it. It can be built on the same assembly line as its siblings in the 767 family.

As ContinentalFan said, a 767-400 (a stretch) is more efficient to operate than a hypothetical 777-100 (a shrink) would be - the 777 would be heavier, resulting in higher fuel burn and landing fees. There's a reason the A318 has sold poorly, just as the 737-600 has.

The 767-400 flies EWR-HNL for Continental - nearly 5000 miles non-stop. It was also scheduled for the IAH-AMS route (before 9/11) which is just over 5000 miles. The 767-400 can operate from New York to just about anywhere in Europe, or from the central U.S. to central Europe.

As for the reasons why an airline would choose the 767-400 over the A330-200: (1) Commonality with the rest of the 757/767 family (2) The 767-400 weighs 40,000 lbs less than the A330-200 (lower fuel burn, lower landing fees, lower operating costs) (3) 6000-mile range is pointless if none of your potential routes are over 5000 miles. (4) Passengers prefer 2-3-2 seating to 2-4-2 seating (5) The 767-400 offers wider seats.

If the 767-400 is a failure with "just" 50 orders, the A340-500/600 must be a failure as well.
 
Spaceman
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2000 3:28 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 2:22 pm

I think the A340-500/600 program has secured more than 50 aircraft orders.
 
steman
Posts: 1406
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 5:46 pm

hello,
I think that the 767-400 has a big development potential.
If Boeing will be able to offer a longer range variant, let's say with the same range as the -300ER, but still with the same GE CF6-80 or PW4060 engines, it would attract more orders from current 763 operators.
Let's think also to the current 767-300 fleets, many of which are reaching 15/20 years of service. I don't remember if the current production 763 have already the new cockpit and interior of the 764 but sure it would be a good advantage.
If we take a look at Europe we can see that many airlines are potential buyer for new 767-300 and for a longer range 767-400: Alitalia, KLM, British Airways, Condor, Britannia-TUI, LOT, Malev, and so on.
Isn't it a market worth the investment by Boeing?

Ciao

Stefano
 
2cn
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:30 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 6:16 pm

According to the Boeing website, the 764 has a range of 5,645 miles.. can fly between London-Tokyo, Newark- Moscow, and Chicago-Warsaw, and as evident by the CO route, Newark- Honolulu.
Compred to the 763er, which is 6,105 miles, and a route example is Frankfurt-Los Angeles... a differnce of 460 miles.
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8007
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 10:35 pm

I think we may see a pickup of orders for the 767-400ER in a few years, mostly because of the heavy parts commonality with the other 767 models.

One intriguing possibility is both AA and UA buying the 764ER for their USA transcon flights by the 2004-2006 time frame; the AA/UA 767-200 fleet is starting to get up there in airframe life (they're some of the oldest 767's flying) and an eventual switch to the more modern 764ER for the SFO/LAX to JFK route could become a real possibility.
 
mikeymike
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 6:52 am

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Fri Jan 18, 2002 12:31 am

2CN....7008 is not going to GSO and the 764 has never been slated for Latin America....not to say that there hasn't been rumors.....

I believe the 764 has a great future ahead of its time. The planes interior is gorgeous, especially with the curved ceilings and the mood lighting you can get from it. While I can't speak accurately about its performance, I understand its favorable a flight ops standpoint.
 
steman
Posts: 1406
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Fri Jan 18, 2002 8:37 pm

I have just read in this month's issue of Air International that one point that kept Boeing from developing a longer range 767-400 is its limited cruise speed.
The 767 wing was designed in a period (the 1970's) when oil prices seemed to be reaching 60$ per barrel, forcing Boeing to develop a wing which favoured low fuel consumption over speed issues.
Thus the current 767-400 wing, despite the ranked wingtips reductions in drag, allows only 0.8 mach cruise speed, thus causing a 12.000 km trip to be too long in terms of time.
The A330-200 has been developed with different concepts in mind so it has its advantages over the 767.
Then the Sonic Cruiser idea came out and Boeing thought (and probably still thinks) that it will be the respons to airlines' need for faster and longer range aircrafts, rather than the 767-400LR.


Ciao

Stefano
 
boeing767-300
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 11:23 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:12 pm

I seem to remember the 757 only had two orders at launch, namely british Airways and Eastern(the good old days).

Next thing you know, nearly everbody has them and everybody loves them and there now a 1000+ of them (1000th went to NW I believe.

Tomaskempner, if you think the A330 is a good looking plane then so be it. Beauty is obviusly in the eye of the beholder. Give me a 763 or 764 anyday
 
JAL
Posts: 3876
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2000 12:37 pm

RE: 767-400: Is There A Future?

Fri Jan 18, 2002 11:42 pm

The 767-400 is a good aircraft it will eventually find more customers given more time.
Work Hard But Play Harder