No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:26 pm

As you can tell from my username, I've been around awhile. I remember when flying was a joy, and passengers were treated like like valued customers. Well, no more. Now it's sit down and shut up. Now it's "step out of line and take off your pants". Well, I've had it. Until the airlines and the FAA get their act together and make flying both safe and enjoyable again, I, for one, am not about to pay them to abuse me anymore. Call me when it's better.
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:28 pm

Ok bye! Have a nice life.
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Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 2:34 am

RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:29 pm


RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:30 pm

Every passenger in the world needs to do this until something is done about security. Even though it might be fatal to a number of airlines, a complete and utter shutdown needs to occur in the airline industry where pilots refuse to fly, and pax refuse to board, until security is reformed.

I'm sorry, no one will agree with me on this, but it NEEDS TO HAPPEN.
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:30 pm

Perhaps you'd like to have your dead body or ashes shipped to your final resting place... whenever that might be necessary.

"Air"ing on the side of caution
Up, up and away!
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:33 pm

Have fun walking, taking a train, or riding a bus from Chicago to LA... you have a choice of 4 weeks, 4 days (well, more like 2) or 4 hours... you choose

life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on

RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:41 pm

The "security" types (see chicken little) readily accept being pawed over by the Burger King rejects and, of course, the European types don't know any better. But red blooded Americans dont like being subjected to "feel good" searches that are basically
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:41 pm

"The "security" types (see chicken little) readily accept being pawed over by the Burger King rejects and, of course, the European types don't know any better. But red blooded Americans dont like being subjected to "feel good" searches that are basically

Can you translate into English?
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 12:50 pm

DC3 Cowboy...

What a contradictory message... On one hand you call for increased security while on the other you complain about possible security measures. Here are some things that may make flying more "enjoyable " again...

1) Pedicures as you undergo a body cavity search

2) A cocktail while your plane is delayed 1 hours because of unattached baggage

3) Chips installed in every passengers head that detect suspicious activity.. Yours for a user fee of $10.. $15 for international flights.

Enjoy your bus ride!!!


RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 1:05 pm

What Aloha?

No question changes need to be made, but stop characterizing the airline industry like it's the lawless Old West.

Like most, you gladly hopped on plane prior to Sept. 11, rarely giving security a second thought. Now you appear like a crusader for a draconian, jack-booted security system that chokes at the very economics that allows travelers the freedom they enjoy.

As tragic as Sept 11 was, it was an anomoly. Since more rigorous, pre-flight inspections were introduced in the 60s and 70s, the number of passengers boarding flights at U.S. airports and later subjected to hijackings or other incidents involving injuries barely registers when you stop to consider the hundreds of millions of flights that flew without incident.

Maybe the sky is falling in your little world, but I happen to think that's a DAMN good record.
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 1:12 pm

Flying may have been fun for you when it was still a "niche" market but now it is mass transportation. The inconveniences come with the territory. You don't like being searched or interrogated? Think security is still not up to snuff? Fine, you have a choice. You may not want to pay to be "abused" but airline agents don't get paid to be abused! You see? It goes both ways. Granted, the airline industry has to get its act together when it comes to certain things but so does the flying public in the US which has shown itself to be very spoiled and childish.

For those who have a problem "surrendering" some liberties in order to fly remember that you're at an airport or on a plane and not taking a walk in the park or lounging around in your living room or on a beach.

RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 1:13 pm

Fine, beat me up. But when the airlines start to fold (and they are already close) remember this topic.
By the way, after 9/11, no one will ever again sit in their seat and let someone fly them into a building. And that is the best security you can get. The days of successful hijackings are over.
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 1:26 pm

Greg, you're a funny mofo..

I always enjoy your posts.
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 1:29 pm

We can achieve the same amount of security with humiliating everyone who goes through screening.

Check out what El Al does, they manage to be the world's most secure airline by doing some covert measures. They don't break out the rubber gloves for everyone who brings nail clippers on board.

- Neil Harrison
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 1:35 pm

Hijackings? What about bombings...

We must remember that freedom and privacy come with a price, which in this case is several thousand lives. Because our Government and society feel that this price is unacceptable, we must trade our privacy for safety.

The current security situation does not help a thing. They are minimum wage workers who are about to be fired whose job is to run an X-ray machine and metal detector. I belive that the best way to obtain security is to replace, and keep replacing scanning equipment and complete replacement of security workers ASAP.

There are back scatter X-ray systems which essentially strip-search each passenger as they stand against a panel. Combining this with full CT baggage scans (Invision CTX machines) will result in very strong security that can be easily implemented and will not seem different to passengers than today's metal detectors and x-ray machines.

Biometrics and ID checking have minimal effect, in my opinion, as well as random searches. Today's enhanced security is consisted of all feel-good measures which cost nothing and provide nothing. We must spend money to acheive security that is not intrusive and replace equipment which has been around for over 75 years.
CX Flyboy
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 1:38 pm

Yes let's all stop flying. Every airline in the world goes bust and there's no need to improve security then!! What a brilliant idea.
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Joined: Wed Jul 14, 1999 1:15 pm

RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 1:43 pm

DC3 is right,,,,,a lot of us just don't mention it, but I won't fly either until I can walk into an airport and take a photo of a jet without having to buy a ticket....

Anybody hear recently about 'Christian Longo" the triple murderer from Oregon,,who lived in his car for a few days at SFO parking garage,,,,then with 'stolen' ID-etc, gets on a plane at SFO to Cancun, Mehico,......and escapes without a question of his ID at SFO....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where is the Media.......questioning the Gov't ad nausem(like the Monica Lweinsky event,,,with DAILY and HOURLY updates.....etec etc etec....parked out front with Mini-cams,,,,50 of 'em......) but not this.....I listened to every newscast, read all 3 major papers in the SFO area,,,and not 1(one) newsperson brought up the subject of how he got past security,,,other than to say,,,' used stolen ID'.....well I feel REAL secure now,,,,

So what is the use of all the stupid security? Why in hell(which is where I'm beginning to think we are...) didn't the FBI, in ALL it's POWER and Electronic snooping measures it has,,,,,,,,why in the Frick didn't anybody get a photo copy of the murderer to SFO or any friggin airport in our area,,,and post the photos at the ticket counters...??????? Do ya think that just maybe some clerk may have spotted his ID to be amiss...? BUT if you try to sit at an airport and take a GD photo of a jet, or just watching a/c movements.....some pencil-necked cop will drive up and order you away...!!!! Now that's efficiency at it's best........

I agree with's the principle of the matter...and unfortunately there are a lot of 'Fish" out there that have taken the bait..........anybody over 30 should know what I mean by that.......


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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 1:45 pm

Give me a break... Insane Things are a little busier than they were in the 40's there grandpa. Nobody is going to stop flying because they don't like the delays or because you're not treated like a King. Do you get better service on Greyhound? C'mon, what a ridiculous thread. Do you realize how large of a role the Airlines play in the economy?


RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 2:00 pm

I can't help but notice that those who disagree are: 1) name-callers 2)16-20 years old 3)From Canada and Hong Kong, and who knows where. And one lawyer.
Airlines are businesses. To remain in business, customers must be pleased. You teeny-boppers may not mind being abused, but the older generation (the ones with the money) mind very much. If we don't fly, the airlines will fold. Whether you like it or not.
Braniff Place
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Wed Jan 16, 2002 2:22 pm

Iam 16-20 years old and as you can see from my username i truly value the days of fashionable and plentiful air travel, even though i havent be around long enough to experience it, things have changed and will never get better you just have to hold on to those memories of the good old days of space, colour, presitge and plenty.

Sure flying is no fun anymore full stop, but its just good to know for yourself that you have good standards and expectations and knowing that there once was airtravel that was genuinely a great experience.
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 2:26 pm

Yes DC3 Cowboy,
It needs to happen. Average Joe does not want to fly period. These people are fanatics about aviation. I love it too...but I am not flying as much anymore as I used to. 1 flight a month for me now...

I am serious when I say this (as you don't all ready know) but people are starting to drive more just to avoid airlines. Given if they need to go across the pond Air is sort of an only option here (besides boat..).

DC, it's all about money sir, and you know that. If they don't need to spend it, then they won't. They should spend money to update security, they should have better meals, they should have more respect for customers...but they don't. Will they ever? I don't think so. Better food? More money. Better security, yup. More money.

Until the airlines are faced again with another terrorist attack, they won't wake up.

"It's all about 9/11 that is causing us to let go of another 23,000 jobs..." All I hear is 9/11. Wake up! It's not all 9/11. It's about your poor security updates to please the average Joe. Start to add newer technology, start to implent dog sniffing dogs, hire Air Cops, and god damnit if it has to be done then start to racial profile. But something has to be done for once not because they want to please the stock holders, but for the average Joe who can only afford to fly to Cali once a year, but only flies because his kids want to, not becuase he wants to.

But thses poor ecnonmic choices that the airlines are making will prove once again that us tax payers need to help out the airline after such an attack. They will ask for money, they will go and cut more jobs, but nothing is done about security except take some insulin away because it was in a needle, and a nail clipper away from a pilot, and let a terrorist walk onto a plane with no bags...

P.S.-I also fall under the 17 year old group  Sleepy

Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 2:26 pm

Both in Toronto and London on flights two weeks ago I noticed no difference in the security procedures from several years ago. Yes, in London they do pat you down but they have always done that, at least as far as I can remember.
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 2:29 pm

You could move to Asia and fly an Asian airline, like CX, SQ, or MAS. In most Asian countries, flying is still very much what flying was in the US or Europe 50 years ago -- something reserved for a privileged few, and not for the mass-market.

Thus, service is impeccable, and you are still treated like a king.

As for security -- well, no one in the world really has a beef against Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia, etc, right compared to the US/Europe/Israel? So, hopefully less risk of hijackings, etc.  Smile
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 2:36 pm

My impression was DC3cowboy's post didn't require a response. Let the man vent. He's obviously disillusioned by the drastic occurences of late. I for one am not too thrilled with the changes that's been taking place. Mind you, I don't think I'll abstain from air travel.
So, let's not bash him for feeling the way he does. Instead, let's all continue to enjoy aviation as we always have. If a few skeptics prefer to find other modes of transportation - Good for them. Via condias (spelling)
By the way, we Canadians (as do the rest of the world) also have concerns about security.  Wink/being sarcastic

Nevermind political correctness - Envision using your turn signals!
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 2:39 pm

Sorry buddy, but larger populations call for larger-scale economics. Service standards on par with what you experienced "back in the day" have had to therefore go down. Lowest-common-denominator air travel isn't what it was like decades ago. Deregulation and Southwest changed all that, in my opinion for the better, even if that denominator is the lowest it can possibly be now.

Airlines are businesses, and you are correct in saying that they often rely on the older generations that have money. But airlines aren't in the business of providing air service for the sake of air service anymore, or service for the sake of service anymore. They're in the business of making money. And if the older generations have money, the airlines are more than willing to offer great service...for a price.

Now I don't intend my views on the matter to be incendiary towards are certainly an eligible critic considering your probably experience with airlines over the years. I'm just stating what it's like here and now. It may not be pretty, and I may not even like some parts of it, but it's what's happening, and we're either going to learn how to play it to our advantage (FF programs etc) or simply adapt.

Finally: I believe your solution to your disagreement with the airline industry is wrong, and even, ironically, a bit childish. On a related note, please don't pull the 16-20 age group inferiority card with me. It drastically lowers my opinion of you.

Aaron G.
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 2:40 pm

Hey you $$$^^^**** DC3

Iam 12.. from Canada and I don't understand micro or macro economics.. Yuk yuk yuk..

Pass me some more beer and maple syrup please!!

I have Masters Degree in Management from McGill University (and many of us Candians are good and educated!!) and I reflect (along with many of my AIRLINERS.NET friends) the kind of critical thinking that is lacking from your generation of dinos... You are not doing much to bridge generational gaps or create a culture of learning...

When does your bus leave?


RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 2:55 pm

What I'm saying is that the security needs to be changed, we need to eliminate the methods that are not working while keeping the methods that are. I have doubts that the government will do anything about unnneeded extra security that does no good at this point, that is why I say that for a brief moment in time, pilots and pax need to bring the airline industry to a standstill until something is done, that will wake the FAA up very quickly.

I'm not living in a little world, what I'm seeing is that unless something is done, there could be far greater consequences in the future, financially, and morally, for the airline industry, than a brief, quick, well planned sit-down of everyone in the industry till things are done right. If you think about it eventually pax will lose even more desire to fly, a hinderance to profitablility if there ever was one, as pax loads begin to fall, that is if they do fall, whcih I think they might. However a swift change, which would cut out any unneccessary security could bring more pax onto planes as security lines decrease and convenience goes up.

That's all.
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 3:03 pm

So let me get this straight WANT the airlines to fold??? Obviously you don't understand economics because if the airlines fold, so will a lot of other things. Many hotels, travel agents, tour companies, hell the entire tourism industry. Not to mention HUGE job losses not just of Airline staff but Airport employees, hotel and resort employees etc. Where are all those people going to go? Great idea  Insane
I bet you'd be one to smile if the airlines fold, but then bitch about the traffic on the highway afterwards.

Vinovalentino: LOL  Big thumbs up

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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 4:15 pm

Let's just all agree that the security now is just plain crappy.

Hell, most of the security agents in the U.S. aren't even American. The only passionate interest most of them have as far as security is their own personal FINANCIAL security. Get rid of em'.

We have to have people that honestly care about security.
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 4:16 pm

.....And a lot of this may not have happened if it weren't for the Airlines not wanting to pay for advanced security measures that should have been installed a looooong time ago.(I'll cover this is a few minutes)

DC3's message brings home a point that may be lost on people without the experiences that we have. It's called Rights. The people with experience grew up with Rights. We are now losing those rights. It ain't pretty. At San Jose Intl/SFO/OAK here on the west coast, you can't even get into an airport unless a ticketed passenger. PERIOD. Will we ever get those rights back, when we could take an afternoon in an airport just for 'fun'....?

Nobody can park at SFO Millbrae Ave parking view lot anymore at runway 1R,,our rights have been taken away......can't even get into the terminal unless ticketed....that's assinine....why have security checkpoints for flyers then if the average public can't get in either...why would we be any more of a problem.......lost our rights there........!

I may be rambling here, but after TWA 800......which all the witness on record say what they saw,,,,,,,and the US Govt didn't do anything about it......and the Airlines didn't want to pay any extra money to beef up security, because it 'cost' too much.......EgyptAir 767 goes down(an obvious cockpit invasion or planted terrorist I'm sure) and nothing is done,,,,,,the powers that be in the US Gov't use their best TV-Spin Doctors to control the media(yes,,,,,,media is controlled in USA...I'm convinced...) because information leaks out but they can 'spin' it.......'control it'.........meaning they can't cover it up completely, but they sure can 'spin it',,,,and if any TV station gets too out on a limb, they're brought back into line with behind the scene threats....

Sept. 11th comes along,,,,,East Coast again....this time, the terrorist 'made sure' that they got the point across........still Boeings being denying it this time,,,NO question...

The only questions I have is this: Where is the Billions we pay in taxes going to? Who was asleep at the switch with protecting us from infiltrators/illegal aliens/and wolves in sheeps clothing? Where was the 'smart minds' in the FBI etc when people who witnessed TWA 800 were saying what they saw,,,,,? Well, can't have that, the flying public won't go.....! It'll scare the s*it out of them.....Airlines will go belly up..!!! Nobody will fly.... Can't have that......

So DC3 is probably right on......

Why should I bend over and spread my cheeks when the obvious problem is the US Govt...............what would the possiblity be(since we've had so many FBI traitors,,,and other related spy's arrested in the last 15years...) would you expect that the CIA is super clean...? Who amongst us ever though that maybe we have a CIA traitor in our midst...? How else could these terrorist worked with such ease in and out of our country?

C'mon...think about was so eaaaasssssyyy for the terrorist............who let em in?
TWA 800 didn't do it(spin control)......Egypt Air was probably a Flight 93 Scenario.........Sept 11th, well..I guess they finally got a clue.......

Now we all pay ,,,,and that's what DC3 is pissed about,,,,,,,,well I join DC3......I ain't playing,,,,and if the airlines go under.....then the CIA lost WWIII.

SJC Alien

RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:23 pm

DC3Cowboy - I am 36, European and a former airline CEO.

If security was so brilliant in the United States, then the events of the 11th September should never have happened. For many years the FAA has been giving countries around the world various category designations based on their security - those with a Category 2 rating are not allowed to start flying to the States or, if they are already operating, increase their services. Strangely, as I pointed out on a number of occasions to colleagues at various conferences (including IATA security ones), if the Americans applied their guidelines to themselves then they, too, would be classed as a Category 2 nation.

So why did it happen? Simple. The airline lobby is extremely powerful (look at the billions of aid they were given - after being grounded for a few days!) and anything that costs them money is generally quashed.

Security in the US today is still a joke. You don't have baggage matching - so it's easy for someone to do a kerbside check-in of a suitcase containing an IED and disappear again. Airport staff are also not checked with any regularity - again, it's the work of a matter of seconds to place an IED on board an aircraft.

Don't forget either that a very large percentage of your terrorism problems have not been from outside the country - but have rather been internal; whether it's the Weathermen, the Black Panthers, or the right wing groups as in Oklahoma City - and simply ensuring you don't employ any Arabs at airports isn't going to help one iota if a militant black Islamic extremist from Harlem is used.

El Al has the tightest security around: they regard themselves as being at war and act accordingly. However, if El Al style security was applied to the US airline industry, you'd have to check in 6 hours before a flight and ticket prices would need to increase by around US$100 per sector to cover costs.

You guys had the opportunity to rectify many of the security problems by federalising it rather than leaving it as the responsibility of the airports or airlines - both of whom will do whatever it takes to cut costs. Obviously, the airlines didn't want to cover the increased security charges - and they again used their lobbying powers to block that legislation.

Did you know that Bill Clinton signed an Executive Order that basically said if any measure cost US airlines money, they don't have to do it? Not only does that apply to security; it also applies to maintenance. Elsewhere in the world, when an airline receives an Airworthiness Directive on its aircraft, it has to comply. It's a Directive - it's not a Suggestion. Not so in the USA. There, they have to either carry out the AD or "any other measure that satisfies their designated FAA Office". So, they just say that they will monitor the problem and fix it after it's killed a few people.

You Americans call it Tombstone Economics.

We Europeans call it Unacceptable.
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RE: No More Airlines For Me

Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:46 pm

Here's a good way to put it: draw a triangle, at one point put money, other freedom, other security. You can have any two-- just not the other one. Airliner design is all about compromise. Surprise! So is life.

We Americans are heavily into the freedom side. I think that's fine, its what we chose. Many people think that the lack of security now is unacceptable, and want to move towards the security side, which is their decision. I personally want expensive freedom, with new technologies.

If you don't like our inexpensive freedom, go to another country.

I call it a choice.

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