BA
Topic Author
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Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 10:56 am

I was surprised to hear that Air France stopped serving Dallas/Ft. Worth (DFW) from Paris (CDG).

What exactly was the reason? I am sure there is plenty of demand for a non-stop CDG-DFW flight. Was it too much competition from American Airline's 777 flight?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
TOMASKEMPNER
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 11:01 am

Although DL has kind of a hub at DFW it wasn´t enough to feed AF flght, besides when they stopped it they still codeshared with CO at IAH.

I also wondered how is LH´s DFW-FRA flight doing, considering there is no big STAR presence at DFW, but they´ve been flying that route for decades, before the flight was : MEX-DFW-FRA on a 744. Today MEX got the 744 and DFW get a 343
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 11:14 am

DFW is a huge city. They can support the FRA flights easily. CDG is a little different of a market. The largest city in Europe, yes, but it's ties to the North America are much more limited to some local areas - like New York, South Florida, and Quebec. Also more of a leisure market, and, yes, as also stated, it is hard to compete against AA and thier popular DFW-CDG service. My guess is yields were low, because all the business travelers were flying American.
a.
 
BA
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 11:55 am

Thanks for the replies.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
airfrancejfk
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 12:00 pm

Mah4546- Quite often, people think of Air France as Paris and Paris alone. The truth is, Paris-CDG is a transit airport, and 50%-60% of every AF flight is usually interline traffic connecting through CDG and going on to airports such as DFW, so it was fair mix of passengers coming from Germany, Italy, France etc.

The other misconception is that business travel was not good. AF I think stands out above other airlines in its ability to fill First and Business (L'Espace Primiere & Affaires) class, but have a half empty Economy class (Tempo) as was the case in DFW.

The bottom line was that load factors averaged 40%-50% at best over all, and it was agreed that the direct flight would be dropped in favor of a CDG-ATL service, that would feed fellow Skyteam member, Delta's hub, which in turn would operate ATL-DFW.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 12:08 pm

Also Gentlemen

Alcatel the French Telecom company cut their DFW operation. This took away the largest coporate customer between the two cities.

AA will barely make a profit on this route even now.
 
zeus01
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 12:12 pm

It seems like a lot of airlines are having probelms with THier US CDG routs from the Midwest and west. NW will be dropping htier CDG route for a few months.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 12:16 pm

Mah4546

Cut your crap. Always the AA bias.

For your info AF dominates CDG much more than AA dominates DFW. They had just as much business travel as AA had, most likely more. Since the majority if the Alcatel business went on AF. AF also had DL to help them out with connecting markets. AA sure did not have this advantage in Paris. Also, AA went around begging for cargo, while AF stuffed the lower deck every single day.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 12:21 pm

Padcrasher, I have no AA bias. I personally love AF, and do fly AF over AA when I fly MIA-CDG. AF has a far supeior product to AA trans-Atlantic. But the FACT is that DFW is dominated by AA. Traffic on US-France, unlike other US-Europe markets, is more dependent on US originated passengers than Europe originating passengers. AF could not compete against AA and in a time when trans-Atlantic travel is falling, it just was not profitable to keep the route.
a.
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 12:30 pm

all around the airport at DFW there were AF signs up the last few months. Everytime I went down there I would see them. It had the 'half a face' of French woman with the DFW -Paris nonstop and the plane picture. I'd have to agree with MAH though, AA is huge at DFW and so many folks connect in to DFW to fly to Europe from the small towns of the south and midwest (like they do at Houston, and Miami and Atlanta too) but AA is such a big player at DFW in that respect
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
blink182
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 12:44 pm

Unfortunately, this is a result of American becoming huge at DFW.

If AA didn't have such a stranglehold, AF might have been able to do better. But when, AF is competing against an airline with 70% of their flights out of that airport, it is hard to compete(not just AF, any airline for that matter)

I am amazed that Korean Air and Lufthansa have been able to compete out of DFW.
I think Lufthansa due to the fact that they started DFW before American developed it. With Korean Air, I think it is because the DFW-Asia market doesn't have a lot of competition at all.

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 12:48 pm

doesn't that seem a little unique to DFW though. Look at Continental in Houston or Delta in Atlanta.

CO in Houston is huge, as their home hub with a high % of trafic, but BA, AF, and Luft (and KLM codeshared w/CO) all fly them as well.

Basically the same at Atlanta via Delta

????

IMO it is more an American Airlines marketing thing in the local region.
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
nonrevman
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 12:56 pm

I think you are on to something concerning the marketing. There are people who work for Delta in DFW that did not even realize that there was an Air France flight going nonstop to Paris. There were not any local ads for it that I saw either.

Of course, the post 9-11 world and the light winter travel season probably took its toll too. Maybe, they can come back to DFW at some point.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 1:05 pm

Houston is the energy services capital of the World.
Much bigger demand for Intl travel...Schlumberger, Halliburton, Enron (rip), Oil drilling, Bechtel, etc. This is the reason for many Intl choices.

It's no party competing with AA in DFW but AF dominates CDG even more so.
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 1:12 pm

Oh I know Houston is the Energy Capital of the World, I'm from Houston. I was just meaning to compare the Hub airports with major single airline dominance and how they seem to keep the intl services that DFW lost.
Maybe I should have been more clear, that is just my opinion I haven't seen any numbers on the load factors for these INTL flights.
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Thu Jan 17, 2002 1:16 pm

Yes, but look at BA, AF, and LH at ATL. BA tried double-daily, failed. LH is 6x a week, and on thier smallest trans-Atlantic aircraft, an A340-200. AF has the DL codeshares. Also keep in mind, Swissair and KLM dropped ATL this past September. Varig didn't survive either. Austrian left, so did Sabena. Compare the selection of international airlines at major hubs like ATL, IAH, DTW, and DFW to cities with smaller "specialty" hubs, like MIA and SFO, or no hubs, like BOS, and it's dissapointing.

Houston: BA, KL, LH, AF
Dallas: BA, LH
Atlanta: BA, LH, AF
Minneapolis: FI
Detroit: BA, LH
Cinncinatti: AF*
Denver: BA, LH
Philadelphia: BA, LH, AF
Pittsburgh: None
Charlotte: BA

*CVG: Spring 2002; DEN: bmi service planned in future

Los Angeles: BA, LH, AF, SU, VS, KL, SR, AZ, IW, LY, EI
San Francisco: BA, LH, AF, SU, VS, KL
Miami: BA, LH, AF, IB, VS, AZ, LY, LT, KL/NW, MP
Boston: BA, LH, AF, VS, AZ, KL/NW, FI, EI
Washington: BA, LH, AF, IB, VS, KL/NW, ET, BM, OS, SK

*LAX: LT service seasonal; SFO: AZ service currently suspended indefinitley; SAS service postponed; MIA: TK and OS service currently suspended indefinitley, bmi service planned in future

Newark and Chicago fortress hubs are the exceptions thanks to the huge size of both.
a.
 
blink182
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Fri Jan 18, 2002 7:39 am

I did forget to mention marketing also. I never saw ANY signs at DFW other than the airline/terminal signs advertising Air France service, same story with the local media. No commercials, no ads, absolutely nothing.

I only knew about AF starting dallas via airliners.net

rgds,
blink182
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Fri Jan 18, 2002 8:03 am

well as I said a few posts earlier there were signs for Air France around DFW. I saw several just two weeks ago. ON 635 and 121
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
BA
Topic Author
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Fri Jan 18, 2002 8:58 am

I wonder how this action by AF will change there views about serving the US.

They'd like to serve DEN within the next 2 to 3 years, and possibily PHX aswell.

BA has been the most optimistic. We all know, they serve more cities in the US than any other airline from Europe. Lufthansa is next, and then I think Air France.

Mah4546,

Yes, BMI wants to serve Denver from LHR, but that doesn't look like its going to happen anytime soon. The Bermuda II looks like its here to stay as is for quite a while unfortunately.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
Topic Author
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Fri Jan 18, 2002 9:06 am

I'd think that all airlines would put up advertisements all over the airports.

When BA started serving Denver, they put ADs all over the main terminal and Concourse A (the concourse they serve out of).

When Lufthansa started, they put these posters all over Concourse A (the concourse they serve out of) and Concourse B (United's concourse).

When United started there seasonal FRA-DEN flight, they also put ADs all over Concourse B and Concourse A.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
meister808
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Fri Jan 18, 2002 10:56 am

Yeah.. I would have to agree about the lack of advertising on AFs part. It is really believable to me, b/c I live near CVG, and I heard about twice that AF was doing the CVG-CDG service. Next to nobody even knew that is was happening.

Of course, CVG is primarily a connection airport, and AF was filling it's 742 every single day, but it is still a good idea to push the flight.

Then Comair stopped flying for 2.5 months, and AF was seeing empty planes. They suspended the flight indefinitely, and now there is a market again. I think CVG really has a market as a sort of alternate ORD for DL flights, and can benefit from international carriers as such.

-Meister

PS-does anyone know if AF has plans to restart it's CVG-CDG nonstop?
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
BA
Topic Author
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Fri Jan 18, 2002 11:00 am

Meister808,

Air France will restart CVG-CDG this March.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
airfrancejfk
Posts: 451
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Fri Jan 18, 2002 11:09 am

Unfortunately, the U.S. market has taken a back seat to AF's expansion in Africa. The truth of the matter is, with the dissolution of Sabena, AF has been increasing routes throughout Africa, and after many years, re-starting Paris-Kinshasha, the crown jewel of Sabena's once famous African empire.

AF does not have a habit of dropping routes (and worse yet, laying off employees) and I believe once the market improves, they will most surely return to airports such as CVG and DFW. However, I also know that their cooperation with Delta has grown tremendously, to the point where it might simply be easier to have DL feed the AF flights, or operate a code share direct to Paris.
 
strickerje
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Fri Jan 18, 2002 11:21 am

According to AF's timetable, the CVG-CDG route will return with a 763. Since they used to be able to fill 742's on that route, and, after that, A340's, is there any chance that route may get a larger aircraft type before, say, June 10?  Smile
 
jhooper
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Fri Jan 18, 2002 10:23 pm

When did Air France stop this service? I was in DFW on Jan. 4 and they still had an A340 heading for Paris. I think they left out of E37.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
ti717
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:44 am

Stopped Jan 7.
Sir, don't you think we should turn on the runway lights?" "No, that's just what there expecting us to do!"
 
us330
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:45 am

The reasoning I had heard was that, following Sabena's demise and the void left in Africa, AF realized it had a better chance of making a profit by increasing its service to Africa, and because they were limited with aircraft, and it was post 9/11, they used the aircraft that was scheduled on the DFW route to fly those extra african services. I still think that they will be back within the next three years once the economy picks up again.
 
baec777
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Sat Jan 19, 2002 5:11 am

In Nov 2001, I heard Air France has already withdrew out of DFW on Jan 7/02; and I am saying to MAH4546 that DFW also has Korean Airlines already serving DFW. I'll make DFW with 3 foreign carriers. BA(British Airways), LH(Lufthansa German), KE(Korean Air). Japan Airlines no longer flies to DFW when it started with a B744, later became a MD11, now they gone because of low passenger load factors, and that AA already serving Tokyo Narita Airport out of DFW, Sabena went bankruptcy due to losses..

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baec777
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?

Sat Jan 19, 2002 9:05 am

baec, I know KE serves DFW. My list was European carriers.
a.

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