SQ325
Topic Author
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LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:37 am

Today a court in Germany forbid that Ryanair calls HHN (Hahn) Frankfurt-Hahn in their commercials! LH had protested against a commercial where Ryanair calls HHN Frankfurt Hahn
The judge said that the Hahn Airport has nothing to do with the Rhein-Main Area and the Rhein-Main Airport.
I wonder now where the first decision was against Ryanair other Carriers will follow and went to the judge against Ryanair.
I hope they do!

regards Bjoern
 
Hoffa
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:46 am

Why are you against Ryanair? Even if you don't like the airline, their presence can only bring prices down.
 
Andreas
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:47 am

And the judge is absolutely correct. Hahn is about 100 km away from Frankfurt, has nothing to do with Frankfurt, it is another state und I find it highly misleading to tell people they'll fly to FRA-Hahn. If they don't know it they'll be up for a very big and possibly nasty surprise, finding themselves in the middle of nowhere after deboarding, especially if they have to catch a connecting flight. I don't care if LH or somebody else sued Ryanair, but the decision is totally correct! btw I've heard that Ryanair has a few other spots that are somewhat suspicious concerning sticking to the truth, but I've never seen them.
Regards
Andreas (who works in FRA and starts all his travelling from FRA Rhein-Main International)
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Andreas
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Hoffa, That Has Nothing To Do...

Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:50 am

...with liking or disliking Ryanair, but there are laws in Germany against telling your customers any bullsh.t about your product, and Ryanair did just that!
Regards
Andreas
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
1stspotter
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:18 am

Hi,

There is a lot more background information on this case. Lufthansa forgot to inform the judge about the legal name of Hahn airport which is Frankfurt Hahn. It is mentioned on the airport website, it is even mentioned on the website of Lufthansa. So when the name of the airport is called Frankfurt-Hahn, Ryanair cannot be blamed for mentioning this name in their ads.


Think the president of Ryanair said that soon Lufthansa will sue Ryanair for calling itself Ryanair.


Marcel
 
Guest

RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:22 am

How far is Frankfurt Main from the centre of Frankfurt?
 
Guest

RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:26 am

That's exactly my point as well.
You can't blame the airport for naming itself Frankfurt-Hahn !!!
I think that once again, the protection of the customer is used as an excuse to protect Lufthansa.
It is rather insulting to assume that a passenger flying to Frankfurt Hahn, as it's called, is not aware of the location of the airport considering that the Ryanair site
is crystal clear about the distance between the city & the airport.

Stefan
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:27 am

15-20 Minutes from the main station which is downtown Frankfurt. HHN is about 120km away, rail link takes about 1:20.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
na
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:30 am

FRA airport is 15 minutes away with train and about the same time with car from Frankfurt midtown (about 15km),
Hahn is more than 100km away, half of it has to be driven on country roads. So it easily takes 1 1/2 hours from FRA to get there.
The judge is right. Frankfurt/Hahn is a joke and a lie. To name Hahn airport Frankfurt/Hahn should be forbidden completely, not only on Ryanair´s ads. Its almost like calling Boston Logan a New York airport!
 
Hoffa
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:33 am

The IATA has listed Hahn as a designated "Frankfurt airport", so I don't see the legal basis for the judge's decision in this case. London Luton or London Stansted are far from the city of London itself, yet both are IATA designated "London airports".

As Ryanair point out, LH fly to both JFK and EWR yet calls both "New York" (even though EWR is in New Jersey).
 
Banco
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:34 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Hahn designated as a Frankfurt airport by IATA?

Sounds a bit like shooting the messenger here. Although FR are promoting it as Frankfurt for their own purposes (obviously!) you can scarcely blame them for calling the airport by its name.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Banco
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:35 am

Ah, sorry Hoffa - posted at the same time as yourself.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Guest

RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:44 am

From the Ryanair site

January 17th, 2002:



LUFTHANSA’S NIGHTMARE IN GERMANY - PART THREE THE ‘DIRTY TRICKS’ CONTINUE!!!
Ryanair, Europe’s largest low fares airline today (Thursday, 17th January 2002) submitted a third complaint to the European Commission complaining about the latest and most ludicrous legal action by Lufthansa in the Cologne courts.

Having failed originally in its application to the Cologne Court to prevent Ryanair advertising “Frankfurt-Hahn” which is the legal name of the airport, late last week Lufthansa submitted an appeal against the Courts ruling - unbelievably on an ex parte basis - and managed to persuade the Court of Appeals that Ryanair should not be allowed to use the legal name of the airport in any of its advertising.

What is most interesting in Lufthansa’s latest application is the extent to which they have failed to tell the German Court’s the truth. It would appear that Lufthansa omitted to tell the Cologne Court that the actual legal name of Frankfurt-Hahn Airport is “Frankfurt-Hahn”. It would also appear that Lufthansa omitted to tell the Cologne Court that Frankfurt-Hahn is an IATA designated airport for Frankfurt, and is therefore approved by IATA (of which Lufthansa is a member) as Frankfurt-Hahn Airport.

Lufthansa also omitted to advise the German Court that even on one of Lufthansa’s own websites (Opodo, which is part owned by Lufthansa) the designated airports for Frankfurt are “Frankfurt-Main” and “Frankfurt-Hahn”.

The lengths to which Lufthansa will go to mislead the German Courts in order to obtain ludicrous injunctions to prevent Ryanair advertising competition, low fares and choice for German consumers in the Frankfurt area is quite extraordinary.

Commenting on this development today, Ryanair’s Chief Executive, Michael O’Leary said;

“The only thing that Lufthansa haven’t yet got an injunction from the German courts is to prevent Ryanair calling itself Ryanair. So far Lufthansa have attempted to prevent Ryanair showing German consumers comparative advertising that demonstrates Lufthansa’s high prices compared with Ryanair’s low prices. Lufthansa have also tried to prevent Ryanair using the phrase “dirty tricks” in connection with Lufthansa, although clearly these ridiculous Court actions are nothing more than the latest “dirty tricks” from the German flag carrier airline which is determined to prevent the spread of competition and low fares in the German market. What is absolutely crazy is that Lufthansa can now get an order from the German Courts to prevent Ryanair referring to an airport by its legal name.

“The fact that Lufthansa would fail to tell the Judge or the Court that this is the legal name of the airport, or that this is an IATA approved airport for Frankfurt city, or that Lufthansa’s own websites refer to it as Frankfurt- Hahn shows the ridiculous lengths that Lufthansa will go to to try to prevent Ryanair advertising its services in Germany and promoting consumer choice and competition. Lufthansa is terrified of Ryanair’s low fares. The ultimate nightmare is that German consumers will now realise that Lufthansa has been ripping them all off for years.

“This is clearly not a matter that can be left to the German Courts, since Lufthansa is clearly misusing the legal process in Germany by obtaining injunctions without any notification to Ryanair, and now by failing to advise the German Courts of the factual position (such as the legal name of Frankfurt-Hahn Airport).

“We are now calling on the EU Competition and Transport Commissioners to investigate this anti-competitive behaviour by Lufthansa in order to ensure fair competition and the spread of consumer choice and low fares in the German market.

“As is the case with all of these ludicrous injunctions, Ryanair will appeal them one by one, and we will be successful on all of these appeals. Once the German Courts have heard Ryanair’s defence I am very confident that they too will put a stop to Lufthansa’s “dirty tricks”, if not, we will take them all the way to the European Courts in Luxembourg.”

Clear isn'it ?
 
Andreas
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:45 am

Alright, then the state of Rheinland-Pfalz needs to be sued, too. It is even another state than FRA (Hessen), but the decision to call Hahn Frankfurt-Hahn is quite understandable: Hahn is in the region of Hunsrück, which is a rather "poor" undeveloped region of Rheinland-Pfalz. The state's PM, Kurt Beck, has been trying for years to bring international airlines to abandon FRA in favor of Hahn, for obvious reasons. So ok, to strike against Ryanair was probably only the first step, the next one should be to have the name of the airport changed from Frankfurt Hahn to just Hahn.
Regards
Andreas
btw: Subway takes exactly 11 minutes from the main station FRA to the airport station, located under Terminal 1 B. The name Frankfurt Airport is absolutely ok and definitely not misleading.
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Hoffa
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:57 am

Suing the regional government or the director of Hahn airport itself isn't the answer because it is the IATA that has listed "Hahn" as an internationally recognized Frankfurt airport and the German Federal Ministry of Transport (BMV) has recognized and approved this. Any reservation system lists Hahn as a Frankfurt Airport.

Couldn't find anything about this in English (no I don't speak German):

Die IATA Kodierungs-Abteilung hat am 8. April 1998 folgenden Entschluß bekanntgegeben :

Wir sind vom Bundesverkehrsministerium (BMV) und der Mehrzahl der Fluggesellschaften, die den Flughafen Hahn anfliegen, informiert worden, daß sie die oben erwähnte Änderung voll unterstützen und begrüßen.

Die international gültigen Kodierungen der IATA (International Air Transport Association) beziehen damit Hahn unter Frankfurt mit ein.

Mit der Publikation vom Juni 1998 wird diese Kodierung offiziell in allen Airline Publikationen bekanntgegeben.

Vorteil für Reiseveranstalter, Reisebüros und Passagiere: Flüge, die ab dem Flughafen Hahn (HHN) durchgeführt werden, sind in allen Reservierungscomputern auch unter Frankfurt (FRA) zu finden.


 
Hoffa
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:59 am

 
na
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 2:02 am

About LH calling EWR a New York airport (a practice that most airlines flying there use): The distance between Newark and Manhattan is less than a quarter than between Hahn and Frankfurt.
 
Andreas
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 2:11 am

Translation of one part of the text:
"We were informed by the German State Secretary for Transportation and most airlines that use Hahn as an airport, that they collectively welcome the change (that is to submit Hahn under Frankfurt)"
So IATA itself wouldn't do it on their own, but do what they are told to do.
IMHO, the transportation secretary and especially the airlines flying into Hahn are not exactly what the judge in the abovementioned decision would call an unprejudiced opinion. The Transportation sec. should be neutral insofar as such a naming does not harm Rhein-Main Airport (the real FRA), which is not the case as FRA is already heavily overcrowded.
Would you accept Boston to be part of NY if Mr. Bush in his infinite wisdom declares Logan to a NY airport, just because an old friend wants him to do just that?
Not really!
Regards and a nice weekend
Andreas
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 2:18 am

Am I wrong or has the court ruled before that the term "dirty tricks" has to disappear or FR would be fined up to 250.000€?? Seems that Mr. O´Leary has to learn it the hard way. Anyway, the EC has already said that this of no matter to them as this is a legal case in Germany.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
Guest

RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 2:20 am

It's interesting to compare the "tricks" used by Lufthansa with those used by Sabena & Brussels airport when Ryanair started in Charleroi/Brussels in Belgium.
As in the case of Hahn, Brussels National Airport tried to sue Ryanair for using the name Brussels-Charleroi rather than Charleroi ( their argument was, as with Lufthansa, the protection of the consumer )
Obviously, it didn't fall through as Ryanair kept on using the name Brussels-Charleroi.
The strategy then turned into an obvious pressure on the state owned RTBF ( belgian french speaking TV network ) to portray Ryanair as unsafe, dirty, always late, not hiring belgians etc...
I guess, we'll soon see on ARD & ZDF interesting shows on why Lufthansa is safer, every incident with Ryanair will be reported in details and much attention will be paid to the fact that Ryanair is using Boeings rather than Airbuses..........
 
Guest

RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 2:23 am

Actually, Andreas, New York has exactly that situation with New York Stewart (Newburgh) Airport!
 
LJ
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 2:37 am

As previously stated. IATA considers Hahn as Frankfurt thus any airline should be allowed to advertise the destination. If IATA decides Hahn is Franfurt so be it period! Allthough I don't like FR I wish them good luck.

Andreas, IATA didn't list Hahn under Frankfurt because there weren't any scheduled flights leaving from Hahn. Moreover, the IATA designator FRA in the CRS covers both Rhein Main Airport and Hahn. However, to avoid confusion Hahn does have a seperate airport code HHN. The situation is comparable with LON (London), PAR (Paris) and MIL (Milan). The difference being that the designator FRA was already in use as an airport code (unlike the other city designators).

This is what you get if you look in Amadeus:
City: Frankfurt
Country: Germany
Airports: Frankfurt Int'l FRA
Hahn HHN
code [city code] : FRA

Sorry to say it but German judges doesn't seem to know anything about IATA, city codes and airport codes.

Flying Tiger, the EU said that they're not sure if they may accept the case.

Regards
Laurens
 
Hoffa
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 2:48 am

How far is HHN from places like Koln, Bonn, and Luxembourg?
 
SQ325
Topic Author
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 2:51 am

I hope the EU will acknowledge the decision made in Cologne!
It is a crime to tell passengers that they fly to Frankfurt Hahn because they even don't come close to the Rhein-Main Area! They are right in the middle of nowhere!
There is no Trainstation no Autobahn access there is nothing!
Nearly the same in Milan! Pescara is 45 km to Milan. If you take a loook at the Ryanair Homepage you see that there are no advices how to get to milan from pescara!
I tell you why because there is no train station! You have to go with a taxi or by bus and that takes a lot of time!
I wish luck to LH when the conflict comes to the second round!

regards Bjoern
 
airblue
Posts: 1785
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 2:54 am

Maybe the German judges doesn't know very well the IATA rules, but I respect his decision.
In any case FR could appeal to the Court decision.

 
Guest

RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 2:54 am


I think it's a joke of Ryanair to accuse LH of "dirty tricks".
Comparing their fares with the highest flexible LH business fares is a joke and a crime to the customers.
I have nothing about competition but Ryanair is using the dirtiest tricks and they are trying to fool their customers.

 
airblue
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Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:16 pm

RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:00 am

SQ325:

maybe you mean Bergamo Orio Al Serio (BGY) 52 Km east of Milan, cause Pescara is in the middle-south of Italy at 580 Km.
 
SQ325
Topic Author
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:01 am

165.8km to cologne
147.9km to Bonn
119.2km to Luxembourg
but there is no bus and no direct train connection!
 
SQ325
Topic Author
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:02 am

Sorry for that but i hope my point is clear!
 
BDRules
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:02 am

HHN is about 150km from Luxemburg. STN is about 1hr10 from the centre of London. LH dont know when to give in. Who in there right mind if they saw "Come to Hahn" and didnt know where it was would go. But if you mention Frankfurt Hahn, then it would catch their eye as it is known around the world as a brilliant city. Its one of the Best that i have been to and i have been to many around the world.
Also there shouldnt be a case if IATA have designated HHN as a Frankfurt airport.

LH dont even fly from HHN so they should concentrate on there marketing and not trying to stop others. i have flown FR twice now and they have been basic but good flights. Plus FR couldnt even compete against the likes of LH on quality of service

LH stop the war

Regards BDRules
 
Guest

RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:10 am

>>Would you accept Boston to be part of NY if Mr. Bush in his infinite wisdom declares Logan to a NY airport<<

Um, New York is over 250 km away straightline(not highway) from Boston. A more comparable try would be BUF and YYZ, which many Canadians know is a low-fare alternative to fly to the states. HHN is a low-fare alternative to FRA, or ABE and PHL, about 85km away(staightline).

Plus Ryanair has where Hahn is located on ryanair.com, along with a map showing people where it is in relation with Frankfurt and other cities.
 
Hoffa
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Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:04 am

RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:11 am

Comparing their fares with the highest flexible LH business fares is a joke and a crime to the customers.

Well to be fair, Ryanair is comparing the highest one-way fare available between certain city pairs. Of course they don't mention that LH has a business class and Ryanair don't, but the comparison is still a legally valid one.

Will LH do what other airlines have done? Namely complain, complain, complain about the business practices of low-cost airlines, then set up shop at HHN and try to compete with them?

Considering what LH/BD did to drive Go off the STN-MUC routes (launching A321 service to drive Go off the route), they have no right to call anybody else anticompetitive.
 
Guest

RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:16 am


mhh, Lufthansa is allowed to fly from any German city to Stansted right ? So what's wrong with them starting an A321 service (which no is no more I believe) ???

That's a totally different story than what I said.
Ryanair is comparing two completely different products. You can't compare apples and bananas just because both of them are fruits.
Or do you compare a tree house with a luxury house in Beverly Hills just because both of them are "houses" ???
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:18 am

Hoffa, in Germany it IS against the law to compare prices, this was one of the very first court rulings against FR to stop this practice! Plus, the judges ARE right. If the advertising is misleading the customer (in this example naming HHN Frankfurt-Hahn) it is illegal in Germany. The court has sentenced that the way FR USEES the name Frankfurt-Hahn is incorrect, not the name itself. A juristical difference...

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
LJ
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:41 am

Just for those who don't know. I once looked at the Ryanair website and they do comply with IATA rules. maybe hard to believe but Bergamo = Milan del Orio = Milan.

Oh yes one important question. Why is LH allowed to sell MUC-BGY (Bergamo/Milan Orio Al Serio) as Munich - Milan and Ryanair not allowed to sell STN-HHN as London - Frankfurt? Furthermore, why is it allowed to sell Hahn in the CRS but if you want to adcertise it you're nbot allowed to do it?

B737-700, So you approve of the fact of first driving somebody out of a market by selling tickets below cost (this is considered "dumping" which is by law forbidden), then if the competitor is gone you stop the service and thus giving a certain consumer not the choice to trravel to a certain airport?

Moreover, Ryanair is not comparing two different products. What's the primary reason for the passenger to purchase a ticket on FR or LH? Yes it's to have transportation between London and Frankfurt. Thus both airlines serve the same need with a product called transportation between London and Frankfurt. The fact that both airlines use different airports doesn't make the product different. The fact that LH wants to add more to the basic product (transportation from London to Frankfurt) than FR doesn't matter.

BTW why hasn't Germany implemented the rules regarding comparative advertising?

Regards
Laurens
 
BestWestern
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:47 am

Surely Ryanair would have represented themselves in court, and told the Judge that IATA sayes HHN is Frankfurt.

I note Ryanair blames Lufthansa for the judges ruling.
When in court you fight your corner.. its up to Ryanair to fight theirs! Obviously Ryanair were not efficient in court.. thats their problem. Lufthansa won.

Also, Its amazing that FR call on IATA, when the dont bother with anything else IATA comes up with.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
Guest

RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:50 am


Lj, I agree on the transportation which of course is what the customers basically wants. BUT I am against it that FR compares the fares of different products. The least they could do then is to compare their lowest fare with LH's lowest fare (which would be restricted coach !!!).
That is my main point.

As for the dumping, any airline does that. The big ones always try to force the little ones out of business or out of a certain market.
I do not know if LH sold the seats on this specific route below cost. Were they cheaper than the GO! tickets ?
 
vfw614
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:59 am

First of all, we are not talking about how in general Ryanair can advertise Hahn - this is what Ryanair is communicating but of course it is, from a legal point of view, rubbish. The court decision, of course, was about one specific advertisement and they way Ryanair used Frankfurt-Hahn to advertise flights from Frankfurt.

IATA area codes legally have nothing to do with the competition act which is the code that governs advertising in Germany. The competition act's point of view is the point of view of the average consumer. The average consumer does not have the faintest idea what an are code or IATA is, but believes if he books a flight to Frankfurt that he will arrive somewhere near this city. And, all the members of this forum are not "average consumers" in the legal sense as they have superior knowledge about airport-codes, Ryanair's advertising tricks, secondary airports etc. etc.

However, it is a misunderstanding that the court decision is about whether or not HHN can call itself Frankfurt-Hahn. They can call the airport whatever they want. A totally different question is what additional explanations airlines have to give that advertise the airport as "Frankfurt" and to what extent they can make customers believe that they actually serve Frankfurt (which is quite obviously the case if you list a table with 15 different Lufthansa fares). Of course, in consequence the name Frankfurt-Hahn is of no use to the airport if airlines cannot advertise as such. However, this is not a legal problem but a matter of fact.

The most stupid argument brought forward by Ryanair is that the court did not recognize them. They were completely free to submit their point of view to the court as it was crystal clear that they would be sued for their advertising which was, under German law, without doubt illegal. Even the most stupid law student knows that you can notify the court in advance that you expect that proceedings against you will be issued and you would like to inform the court about your legal arguments.
 
vfw614
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 4:06 am

Laurens,

of course Germany has implemented the directive concerning comparative advertising. But, as it has been said, even under that directive, you are only allowed to compare apples with apples, not bananas with apples. And this is, what German courts believe, Ryanair is doing - not in general if they use Frankfurt-Hahn in their ads, but in the advertisements for which Lufthansa has sued Ryanair. Ryanair, for example, has compared flights from Hahn to Bournemouth with LH flights from FRA via whereever to Southampton, Lufthansa flights from FRA to TLS with their flights from HHN to Carcassone. They have compared Lufthansa's unrestricted business fares with their 10 Euro fares with the tiniest thinkable remark that "conditions apply". I mean, how smart do you expect the average consumer to be ?
 
Hoffa
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 4:59 am

So if Ryanair has such bad service and they are so convinced they have the superior product, why are LH running to court to prevent FR from listing HHN as Hahn-Frankfurt which every CRS in the world lists as a Frankfurt airport?

Are they worried that people will actually be so thrilled at the prospect of a 10 EURO ticket they won't bother with LH@FRA?
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 5:16 am

Simple. Would FR only advertise HHN as destination only few pax would use them as nobody would knew where Hahn is. Using the misleading term Frankfurt-Hahn makes a false suggestion. this way they can "suggest" that they fly to Frankfurt.

Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
racko
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 6:38 am

"LUFTHANSA’S NIGHTMARE IN GERMANY - PART THREE THE ‘DIRTY TRICKS’ CONTINUE!!!"

This headline will cost FR up to 500.000€ .

Let's wait till o'leary understands that the german counts are more powerful than he thinks at the moment.
 
Hoffa
Posts: 946
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:04 am

RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 6:52 am

I still don't understand why you guys wouldn't want low-fare competiton to succeed in Germany. LH has a near-complete dominance of the domestic and regional market and their domestic airfares (when compared to a similar length trip in the UK) are nothing short of extortionate.

Do you really think people are so stupid as to book a ticket for Frankfurt Hahn without checking first where is that airport and how can I get to town, etc? Anyone who thinks this action by LH is good for the consumer is in denial.
 
Sabena332
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 6:58 am

Yes, I agree with Hoffa. I can not understand too that some people do not want a Lufthansa competitor here in Germany. In my opinion it is great that a low-fare airline opens up a hub in Germany because there are a lot of financial advantages for the passengers, also for LH passengers.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 7:08 am

Grasping at straws by LH, who know that Ryanair has a game plan against which they cannot effectively compete. Could it be that LH is fuming over Ryanair's ascent to the top in market capitalization among the airlines of Europe, which bumped LH to #2.

Nice try LH; Ryanair will continue to grow and prosper while LH, like their "full-service" colleagues in Europe and North America, will go on struggling to reach break-even while ignoring what the market is telling the airline industry. Ryanair has simply paid attention to what the shorthaul market is calling for and has responded with a product to match; that is why they will continue to thrive in spite of the games LH (perhaps others) try to play.
 
racko
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 7:11 am

i have no problem with low fare airlines, but i do have a problem with ryanair because of the methods they use.
There are other low fare airlines, Germania, buzz ... using FRA for their flights and they still have low prices ... If Ryanair advertises the flight as HAHN-London(Stansted), i have no problem with it. (the British have to decide whether Stansted is a London Airport or not) But
FRANKFURT(HAHN)

is not the right way to advertise a flight to or from Hahn.
 
Sabena332
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 7:32 am

Ok, that is right. In my opinion must Ryanair told the people in their advertisements that it is not Frankfurt but Hahn.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
1stspotter
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 7:35 am

Hi,

I predict the next court case will be between Air France and Ryanair. Ryanair is using this airport for severall flights from the UK an Ireland. Beauvais is located about 80 km from downtown Paris.
The official name is Paris Beauvais airport so there is no reason to blame Ryanair here for using Paris in it's advertising. The airport management wants to attract passengers and Paris Beauvais just like Frankfurt Hahn is a better name marketing wise then Beauvais International Airport.

Paris newest airport will be build about 130 km north of Paris. Will take some time to complete, think 2014 or so. Somehow I doubt this will be called Chaulnes International. Neither I doubt Lufthansa will mention Chaulnes in their timetable.

The only reason Lufthansa went to court is to protect it's own interest, certainly not the interest of the passengers. Lufthansa lowering fares would be a prove of being customer friendly.

Most Ryanair passengers are fully aware of their destination and how to get to their final destination. They appreciate the low fare and know the flight is basic, have to pay for food etc.


best wishes
Marcel
 
David_itl
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 7:56 am


Most of us on this site know where you'll end up when flying with Ryanair. You've got to imagine what it's like for anyone who is not connected to or have knowledge of the travel industry in general and the aviation industry in particular.

Therefore, I have to say "Sorry, Marcel" but most of Ryanair's passengers do NOT know where they are going as it is becoming a habit to find the BBC consumer programme "Watchdog" having reports from angry people not realising that they are 1 to 2 hours away from where they think they are going and then having to transport themselves to where they really want to be. Some passengers may decide that they'll never fly again because some airlines can't be trusted to tell them the truth i.e. you may end up in the middle of nowhere!

If there was no existing airport serving Frankfurt, then I doubt anyone would object to Hahn being labelled as "Frankfurt" but seeing that there is already an airport for Frankfurt within easy reach then you can see why the hoodwinking should be stopped!

Does anyone know if a survey has ever been conducted where people in the street are asked where these "secondary" (or as I prefer to label them, "remote") airports are?

I've just looked at a map of Central Britain and have worked out that Birmingham, East Midlands, Blackpool, Leeds-Bradford and Sheffield could all be classified as "Manchester" in Ryanair's world, in addition to Manchester itself  Nuts

David/MAN
 
wingman
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RE: LHs First Strike Against Ryanair!

Sat Jan 19, 2002 8:15 am

Honestly, there is no cozier relationship between a government and its "national" airline than Germany and LH. It's practically a comedy. Compare the average weekday fares between the two biggest cities in Germany vs. those in the UK and you'll see the result. I can almost hear the German Chancellor telling LH, "you buy the 380 eh? Lots of them please or maybe the word "Frankfurt" stays in the Ryanair advertising ja?"

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