KUGN
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Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 12:57 am

This morning I was listening on the radio a discussion in which was suggested that Richard Reid was a shue bomber #2, while the first one was successfull - aboard AA 587.


My immediate thought was -- what about TWA 800? If Reid's shoe bomb was strong enough to ignite fuel from his window seat in wing section, then wouldn't it be possible that the same scenario took place on flight 800? What other 747 ever had wiring problems that would lead into such tragedy as the TWA 800 had?

In the light of everything that happened since 9/11 I think that it would be smart to revisit many of unexplained aviation disasters that took place over last decade.
 
CO 757-300
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:09 am

.....definetly something to think about

 Confused Lou
 
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STT757
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:10 am

If terrorists wanted to kill Americans why would they bomb AA 587, outside the flight crew there were little to no US nationals on that flight. Mostly immigrants.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
jfk747
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:16 am

cause more people to fear flying before a holiday, damage our economy, hurt airlines, kill people on the ground, shut down airports.... I could go on
 
Ikarus
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:20 am

In my opinion, all this speculation is BS of a spectacular degree. First of all, I cannot imagine a shoe bomb being able to do the damage experienced in AA587 or TW800. AA587 seems like a fairly straightforward materials failure - just look at the images of where the bolts tore through the composite. Explosives damage would have been quite different (how would you blow off the rudder anyway, with a shoe? Throw it out through the ceiling?  Yeah sure )

And honestly, a shoe bomb detonating fuel tanks in a jumbo? I don't know about his shoe size, but to cause enough damage to blow the way through the floor and outer tank skin, and ignite the fuel as well..... Based on a shoe?!? Not a realistic scenario. Especially as the explosion would take place undirected - i.e. radially. You could not direct the blast into the floor - it would do most damage where it encounters least resistance - in the passenger cabin.

Media panic. Exaggeration. Hysteria. Exactly all of the things I despise about the media - and the uninformed viewers / listeners / readers who soak it all up...

Next thing we'll hear is that Concorde was brought down by a shoe bomb. After all, it has so many things in common: It flew out of Paris, it was scheduled to fly across the Atlantic, there was lots of fire and explosions.... Jeez, why did no one think of that?  Yeah sure

Regards

Ikarus
 
eugdog
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:22 am

Aviation experts can easily tell in an explosion brought down an aircraft. Because the over pressure caused by purpose built explosives is much greater then any fuel explosion, the tearing of the structure is more jagged and prenounced. Moreover the high over pressure imbeds pieces of the bomb and anythihg attached to it into other parts of the aircraft. There is no trace of these tell-tale mark on either A587 or TW800.
 
bizzell0
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:33 am

Do you think that Richard Reid would have caused a total loss of the aircraft he was on?
 
bobnwa
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:40 am

KUGN,

Do you think the authorities ought to look for a shoe bomb as the cause of Amelia Earhart aircraft mystery or maybe even the Bermuda Triangle missing planes. Lets leave no stone uncovered.
 
KUGN
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:44 am

Bizzell0, apperantly so. The aircraft was on high altitude, over the Atlantic. Also, based on his seat position (he didn't try to ignite bomb in toilet where no one would notice him), he would tear the wing connections to the fuselage.
 
KUGN
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:50 am

Bobnwa, I don't apreciate cynical comments. If you think there is no reason to suspect links, just say so. I don't feel comfortable myself thinking about these scenarios, and I gave carefull thought to them prior to posting this topic.

 
Jer32382
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:56 am

I think the links here are unrealistic. We know for a fact that AA587 was brought down by a materials failure, not a shoe bomb. And as for a shoe bomb bringing down TWA800? That would have to be one hell of a shoe bomb. Just don't think it's realistic.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:05 am

I really doubt that TW 800 was brought down by a shoe bomb.

The investigators could tell almost at once if the explosion was caused by a bomb--there is a very distinct signature of structural failure associated by a bomb explosion, not a fuel tank explosion. Besides, they didn't find any exploded residue of plastique, powdered metal or agrichemical-derived explosives.
 
KUGN
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:09 am

Abstract from Aicraft Accident Report
http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAR0003.htm

In-flight Breakup Over the Atlantic Ocean
Trans World Airlines Flight 800

Boeing 747-131, N93119
Near East Moriches, New York
July 17, 1996

NTSB Number AAR-00/03
NTIS Number PB2000-910403


...
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the TWA flight 800 accident was an explosion of the center wing fuel tank (CWT), resulting from ignition of the flammable fuel/air mixture in the tank. The source of ignition energy for the explosion could not be determined with certainty, but, of the sources evaluated by the investigation, the most likely was a short circuit outside of the CWT that allowed excessive voltage to enter it through electrical wiring associated with the fuel quantity indication system.
...



2 points


1. It didn't have to be a shue-bomb. By pointing a link to Richard Reid, I meant to the Al-Queda/related ter.group sponsored mission, in which one of the passangers was carrying explosive.

2. Bomb didn't need to tear the entire 747 apart, but just ignite fuel, and make it appear as something else was the cause.


Could this happen, if the bomber was positioned over the center fuel tanks?



 
KUGN
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:11 am

RayChuang, that was the question I had. So, it means they did not find any explosive residue.

Still do you think it would be worth going thru passanger list once again, and check who was aboard? Would this make sense?
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:26 am

Going through the passenger could be a good idea, just double check. Nothing wrong in doing that.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
acidradio
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:52 am

Wasn't the ShoeBomb a version of the Reebok Pump, back in the late 80's? You know, those basketball shoes with the little air pump on them to tighten the shoes?
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
GDB
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 3:03 am

The NTSB are pretty sure what caused the loss of TWA 800.
It's too early to say what caused the AA A300 crash, you certainly cannot say for sure that material failure caused that loss.

 
KUGN
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 3:07 am

But, have what was stated in NTSB #AAR-00/03 abstract?

....The source of ignition energy for the explosion could not be determined with certainty....
 
777236ER
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 3:24 am

However, KUGN, they're pretty certain it came from within the CWT.

If a show bomb had been detonated in the cabin, then it would have to be pretty powerful to get to the fuel AND ignite, and would have been immediatly obvious to the investigators thanks to the localised massive increase in pressure around the bomb.
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LZ-TLT
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 5:40 am

OMG!

A huge security hole discovered  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

I see, in some 2-3 months we all will be obliged to get barefeet onboard airplanes. I just hope, it will be allowed to keep socks on
 
TWAMD-80
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 6:07 am

That is an interesting thought. I have been wondering about AA flight 587. The wake turbulence theory could explain the tail separation, but why did the engine fall off the wing? A shoe bomb sounds like one of the many plausible explanations. We 'll just have to wait and see what happens.

TWAMD-80
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777236ER
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 6:15 am

The wake turbulence theory could explain the tail separation, but why did the engine fall off the wing? A shoe bomb sounds like one of the many plausible explanations.

No it doesn't. Based on the evidence to date: there were large rudder movements. These caused, or something else caused the fin to snap off. As the aircraft rolled out of control, the stress took the engines off. No bomb.
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VirginA340
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 6:29 am

If a shoe bomb did occur it would do no more damage then the TWA 727 and that 747 in the Pacific when they had a whole blown in them A Japaneese tourist was killed on the 747 and over a dozen injured. $ were killed on that 727 along with 20 injured by flying debries.

Remember that bomb that detonated on PA 103? Well it was the size of a coffee mug. Size doesn't matter. It would take much power to destroy a window or poke a basket ball sized hole through the fuse to cause damage. The forces of nature takes care of the rest.
"FUIMUS"
 
VirginA340
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 6:30 am

If a shoe bomb did occur it would do no more damage then the TWA 727 and that 747 in the Pacific when they had a whole blown in them A Japaneese tourist was killed on the 747 and over a dozen injured. 4 were killed on that 727 along with 20 injured by flying debries.

Remember that bomb that detonated on PA 103? Well it was the size of a coffee mug. Size doesn't matter. It would take much power to destroy a window or poke a basketball sized hole through the fuse to cause damage. The forces of nature takes care of the rest.
"FUIMUS"
 
ogseminole
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 6:52 am

To all of you who say "that we know for a fact that TWA 800 or AA 557 was brought down by" whatever.
Where are you getting your facts?
The government agencies that are charged with investigating these incidents also know the potential financial damage to manufacturers, airlines, security co, etc...
Unless you have verifiable independent information, you do not have all the facts.

PS The TWA mechanics union never concurred with the NTSB finding of faulty wiring. Funny that?!
 
deltaownsall
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 6:55 am

...I'm no aviation expert...but about the wake turbulence thing...how could that tear a tail off? It is not like they were very close to the aircraft...if I remember correctly they only violated the time between t/o rule...and they were a normal distance from each other. Also...is it entirely impossible that the government would have kept evidence of a bomb explosion quiet on the AA flight...considering if word got out that it would cause more economy woes? And, as others said...the bomb didn't have to be a shoe bomb and size doesn't always matter. I personally find the TWA 800 accident report to allow for the possibility of a bomb explosion near the wing...or maybe in the wing. Come on...you know the government hides stuff...Im not saying that they did...just that it could be a possibilty?
Deltaownsall
 
777236ER
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 6:58 am

The TWA mechanics union never concurred with the NTSB finding of faulty wiring. Funny that?!

Not really. It was essentially poor maintence that brought down TWA800.

And who looked at all the facts? The NTSB or the "TWA mechanics UNION"?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
ogseminole
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 7:30 am

777236ER
Go to www.TWA800.com and view for yourself what they thought of the government investigation.
What evidence do you have that TWA's mx was shabby?
More than 100 eyewitness accounts were completely disregarded. Usually the most damning evidence in any investigation is eyewitness testimony, but not this time. How come?
Sounds like we are repeating history. AA557 investigators are discrediting every eyewitness that saw flames before the plane crashed. That same day the investigators were almost 100% sure that it was not terrorism that brought the plane down. Wake turbulence is convenient, but even more convienient is pilot reactions to the wake.
It's just too neat
 
777236ER
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 8:01 am

Yes, i've been to TWA800.com. It's a load of bull. MOST. BIASED. SITE. EVER.

Quite frankly, a lot of it is lies. It's accepted in the industry that TWA800 was caused by what the NTSB said it was caused by. Stop seeing conspiracies everywhere. How would YOU know what the AA557 witnesses are saying?! How would YOU know the NTSB is discrediting their evidence?

Only one witness saw a fire. Most saw the plane rolling. Some saw it without engines and with no fin. Those are the facts.

To determine whether it was terrorism or not is quite easy -- especially in a situation like this. Firstly, it's VERY easy to find evidence of an explosion (overpressure, and there'd be a LOT more witnesses, to ths sound, to the explosion, to the flames [remember, only one fire-witness]). Secondly, no terrorist-related ATC transmissions. Thirdly, unlikely to be a hijacking so soon after take off.

Wake turbulence, and the pilot's reactions to it, is convenient, eh? Well sorry. Perhaps next time you'd like a nice complex crash, where the pilots don't make any mistakes?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
KUGN
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 8:36 am

777236ER, hypetheticly speaking, why would terrorist need an ATC transmission? Perhaps, all he needed was to sit in tail section, and ignite himself up (again, it doesn't have to be shue bomb) 90 seconds after airborne.
 
spectre242
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 9:27 am

I remember watching a tv programme about TWA 800 last year i think (It may have been an edition of Black Box or one of those type shows on the Discovery Wings channel), anyways, I found it very interesting and informative. As I recall, the FBI were heavilt involved in the initial investigation, searching for signs of foul play, ie, traces of explosives and bomb damage in the cabin as mentioned in the above posts. ONe day they found some and the FBI thought this was great because they had the proof of foul play which they had been looking for to support their theroies, or something like that. Now I dont remember much about the investigation since my interets in aviation has only grown into a hobby in the past few years, so I didn't follow it much at the time and I dont know how publisized this all was. Anyway, the point is, they later found that this trace of explosive was from a planted fake bomb which was used in sniffer dog training on board the aircraft a few weeks or months before and this cause some embarrasment to the FBI, who were not able to find any other evidence of foul play, either from a bomb or a missle. I thought the NTSB's report seem accurate and consistant with the evidence and although there is some uncertainty about the actual cause of the explosion of the fuel vapours in the CWT, evidence of a bomb blast would have been easily found by the investigation. After all, if people were trying to cover up bomb explosions on airliners, why didn't they claim PA 103 was an explosion in the CWT too, or something like that. Investigations are in place to find the truth and improve safety and security as a result of their findings to try and prevent it happening again.
 
ogseminole
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:08 am

Not one shred of evidence ie. burned electrical wire in any of the fuel systems yet this is what caused the accident. The fuel tank ruptured inward, not outward as expected if explosion started there.
It took the search crews a very long time to "recover" the black boxes. If I remember correctly, they found JFK Jr's plane faster than the 747. Again, too convenient.
Faulty wiring: Yeah,its just raining Boeing aircraft all over the place, NOT!

 
ogseminole
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:19 am

Forgot to add wake turbulence theory.
Those of us who actually fly transport airplanes have experienced numerous encounters of wake. Rarely if ever does it take a lot of manhandling to negate the effects. Especially in a heavy.
In all but the most abnormal situations the A300 would have been at or above the 74's flight path. Hence, little chance for a tremendous wake encounter.
Blaming the pilots is the easiest way out, they can't defend themselves.
 
GDB
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Ogseminole

Fri Jan 25, 2002 1:32 am

Guess what? Aircraft accidents are usually very complex events, as is the investigation. Not all wrapped up like in a Hollywood movie.
Like or not, though we don't yet know the cause of the AA A300 crash, and the NTSB have indicated it will some time before we do, most accidents are caused by some kind of pilot error.
Everyone actually involved in the industry knows what happened to TWA800, listen to them rather than spending time on stupid conspiracy websites which usually have a political agenda of some kind.
 
777236ER
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RE: Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 1:44 am

Ogseminole, read what GDB said  Insane
Your bone's got a little machine