od-bwh
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Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 11:12 pm

Why don't US airlines have flights to Arab Middle Eastern countries? Delta has recently stopped flights to CAI and DXB.

I've heared that United was interested in flying to Saudi Arabia around five years ago. What happened next?

Most Arab airlines, incl. MS, KU, SV, RJ, AT, and prviously ME and GF-fly to the US. These sectors were booming, prior to 9/11 at least.

Can anyone give non-political reason plz!
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Marco
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 12:16 am

DL tried DXB/CAI. The flight didn't do well at all. They started off with 3X weekly flights using a MD11. They were supposed to downgrade the aircraft to a B767-300 but 9/11 changed that. Instead they discontinued the flight.

TWA used to fly to CAI/RUH but when AA took over they stopped the flight, because it wasn't profitable anymore.

I don't think we'll ever see more US airlines in the ME. Why? Because the demand isn't there, and most Middle Eastern airlines already have a stronghold on the market (LY, KU, MS, etc). Also, EK is going to start flights to JFK/LAX/YYZ/ORD starting in 2003 using DXB as a connecting hub.
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El Al 001
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 12:21 am

But there are some code share flights out there, right???

BTW, UA would start 'flying' to TLV on a codeshare basis with LH, this would start on March.

Michael
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 12:50 am

Why do you insist upon a non-political reason when there may not be? At the surface we need to be careful about who now comes into our country...and having flights from that region only hurts that effort. Also, our own people would not fill the planes to that region (because of fear) and people over there would choose their own regional carriers (Emirates, Saudi) or some neutral carrier (British Airways).
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 3:14 am

CO flies to the Middle East. From what I hear, AA/TW's JFK-CAI-RUH flight was profitable to the very end. Don't know why it ended, though.
a.
 
Marco
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 3:17 am

I heard that the yields were very low. Also, the RUH-CAI sector was doing very well but the CAI-JFK sector wasn't doing that well...
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ly772
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 3:25 am

"Why don't US airlines have flights to Arab Middle Eastern countries?"
What about Jewish Middle Eastern Countries?  Big thumbs up (PS: There's only one, and I'll give you 3 guesses)
 
david b.
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 3:35 am

Let me guess: American, Delta, US Air Big grin
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yyz717
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 3:40 am

If there was market potential, US carriers would be there.

The Arab flag carriers are all govt owned and hardly have a strong bottom line focus....they fly to the US for prestige, not profit.

Let's face it.....most Arab countries are poor with few business conx to the US and generally non-entrepreneurial economies. There is thus little business traffic betw the US and Arab countries.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ScottB
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 3:55 am

US carriers aren't serving the Middle East precisely because of political, security, and economic considerations. The majority of passengers on U.S. flag carriers to the Middle East would generally be Americans; however, the level of anti-American sentiment and risk of being the target of a terror attack keeps most Americans away from that region of the world. People don't forget things like a group of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists shooting up a busload of German tourists in the middle of Cairo thinking that they were Americans.

A U.S. airline flying to the Middle East automatically makes itself a target of terrorists by raising its profile in that part of the world. Not only does that pose serious security concerns at their operation in the Middle East; it also increases the risk of security problems at their operations worldwide.

But as others have said, the economics play an important role. A U.S. carrier would be forced to compete against well-established government-subsidized carriers in that part of the world. It's easier to simply add a limited presence through codesharing.
 
ScottB
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 4:04 am

US carriers aren't serving the Middle East precisely because of political, security, and economic considerations. The majority of passengers on U.S. flag carriers to the Middle East would generally be Americans; however, the level of anti-American sentiment and risk of being the target of a terror attack keeps most Americans away from that region of the world. People don't forget things like a group of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists shooting up a busload of German tourists in the middle of Cairo thinking that they were Americans.

A U.S. airline flying to the Middle East automatically makes itself a target of terrorists by raising its profile in that part of the world. Not only does that pose serious security concerns at their operation in the Middle East; it also increases the risk of security problems at their operations worldwide.

But as others have said, the economics play an important role. A U.S. carrier would be forced to compete against well-established government-subsidized carriers in that part of the world. It's easier to simply add a limited presence through codesharing.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 5:53 am

Good analysis, Scottb. Why should US carriers put their people, pax, and planes at risk when there isn't money to be made? Middle Easterers who want to get to the US have their own government-subsidized carriers, and everyone can go through Europe if needed. Service exists on carriers that can profit from it or are subsidized to offer it, it's just not all nonstop.

Any update on how many of these carriers are submitting their US pax manifests for US scrutiny against the feds' terrorist-suspect database? As of last summer none of them were. Did Congress actually require this last fall, or did we back down to please the Saud family?

Jim
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Lt-AWACS
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 8:10 am

Some middle east carriers might expand service into the US,

like Emirates might expand into Houston.

US Carriers could then codeshare with several of the ME carriers into the USA, Emirates, Egypt air, etc
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od-bwh
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 2:43 pm

Why did I say "arab middle eastern countries"? b'coz i know that there are flights for TW (and now AA i guess) and for Delta into TLV... Plz correct me if i'm mistaken.

Scottb, thanks for your nice analysis... but actually I know all political reasons, and that's why i stressed on non-political issues. Actually most members are diverting from the main issue to discuss other subjects.

I would like to remind you that there are Arab Americans who regularily visit the Middle East, in addition to the Arabs living there. I think these will fill the plane to the neck at any flight. Btw, pax to the US and Canada from the ME count for around 60% of the total pax using European carriers. So can you imagine how happy will CO be if they screwd BA and AF?
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mls515
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 2:50 pm



I think most would be just as happy to feed the passengers to their European partners.
 
ly772
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 4:32 pm

You are mistaken. The only North American carriers are CO (1xEWR) and AC(1xYYZ)
 
od-bwh
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 4:39 pm

I'm quite sure that TWA once operated a flight between TLV and JFK. I think it's over now with AA taking over TW.

The main losers, I guess, are United and NWA, b'coz they've never had any presence in the region. I don't think a partner can take the place of the original airline. Here are LH and KLM: they both are operating to more cities in the US and S. America, while keeping their ties with the americans'.
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donder10
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 7:12 pm

What time does the CO flight leave TLV for EWR?And what time does it leave EWR for TLV?
Thanks,Alex
 
MEA
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 11:05 pm

MEA used to fly into New York I believe, however, the flights were cancelled once the B742s were disposed.

OD-BWH, what aircraft type is your user name from?

How is MEA going these days? I know that financially they were having problems & were trying to restructure with the laying off of staff.

Do you know if they have any plans for future fleet growth? I wish they would return to Sydney!
 
DCA-ROCguy
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OD-BWH

Thu Jan 24, 2002 11:25 pm

OD-BWH, you seem to miss the point that ScottB and others have brought up. Several of the USA Cartel carriers *have* tried service to Arab Middle Eastern countries, and they *haven't* been "filled to the neck" with passengers, or they'd still be flying. That means that these airlines can't make money on those routes.

Also, government ownership or subsidies of Middle Eastern carriers is not simply a 'political' factor. It is very much an economic factor that helps these carriers make money more easily.

Might there be other reasons that Middle Easterners fly European and Middle Eastern carriers to the USA? Perhaps they have a certain amount of patriotism and like to support their home carriers? Or perceive something desirable about European carriers that they do not, about American carriers? It's no secret that a lot of Middle Easterners don't like the USA, even though they are quite happy to live here and earn our money. Might they prefer to support home carriers?

It's not possible to neatly separate cultural, social, and political factors the way you seem to suppose. Each affects the others. Whatever the factors, services by USA airlines to the Middle East haven't made money. For carriers in the USA, that's the bottom line, and for that reason they haven't for the most part endured.

Jim
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 11:35 pm

Just a tiny detail I picked up-someone called BA a 'neutral' airline, implying Americans would feel safer flying them to the ME.

Mmmm, I don't think Britain is considered a 'neutral' country anymore! Big grin

Of course it will never happen, but in a safety sense, it's a shame EL AL don't fly around there!

Regards

 
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yyz717
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 11:56 pm

I also am someone who doesn't think of EL AL as being a ME airline. I think of EL AL (and Israel) as being European.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flydeltasjets
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 1:46 am

Maybe it's because the a$$holes keep blowing up our airplanes.
 
ryanb741
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 3:31 am

AA codeshares with GF between Abu Dhabi and LHR. The plane is a GF plane though (A340)
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teva
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 5:32 am

Here can be a non political reason for the failure of US carriers in the region:
If you compare the service by Emirates to the service of US caarriers, you wil quickly make your choice.....
And fly Emirates.
It is not patriotism. It is just common sense....
Nana...
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goingboeing
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 5:52 am

Simple - they hate us over there.
 
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airzim
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 9:02 am

Goingboeing?

Thanks for that very helpful and insightful comment.

First of all who is "they"

Secondly have you been to any Middles Eastern country?

I have traveled to Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Qatar, Kuwait, UAE, Israel and occupied territories, and I can assure you that I found many of "they" that did not hate me.
 
goingboeing
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 9:42 am

Well Airzim - would you be the first to board a big silver bird with the word AMERICAN painted on the side that is heading to the mideast?
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 9:50 am

I agree with Airzim, as I have traveled extensively throughout of N.Africa and the Mid-East and I never experinced any open hostility.

Before judging a place or culture, I suggest spending less time in front of the 'boob tube' and more time out with people.

Thomas
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goingboeing
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 10:34 am

Before ramming 4 airliners into buildings and the ground, I suggest spending less time in the jihad and more time out with civilized people.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 10:50 am

This is getting ridiculous. I have traveled extensivley throughout the Middle East, including the U.A.E., Israel, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt, and have found it to be a wonderful place with a unique and exotic culture. Never once was I treated badly by the locals, who were all friendly. Please do not associate all of the Middle East, including nations such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the U.A.E. in which the US has good realationships with, with nations such as Iran and Iraq.

flydeltajets, that comment was rude and uncalled for. Get a life.

Ryanb741, to get back to the topic, in addition to AA codesharing with GF on LHR-BAH, GF codeshares with AA on JFK-LHR and MIA-LHR.
a.
 
flydeltasjets
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:22 pm

When planes are intentionally blown up, middle easterners do it almost 100% of the time.

When people blow up planes, I call them a$$holes.

Therefore, I stand by my statement that the a$$holes keep blowing up our planes.

And, by the way Mah,

It's rude and uncalled for to blow up planes. Why don't you politically correct policewomen start to worry about the real problem, rather then whether or not someone gets offended....Also, I got a life. I have the greatest wife in the world, live in the greatest country in the world, and get paid real well to fly for the greatest airline in the world. Wouldn't trade with anyone in the world. Thanks for you advice, but I think I'll keep the life I have.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:26 pm

flydeltajets, you have serious problems. There are many Middle Easterners on this board right here that do not go around blowing up airplanes. In fact, 99.999999999% of Middle Easterns do not blow up airplanes.
a.
 
seagull
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:32 pm

U.S. freight operators do go to the middle east.
 
flydeltasjets
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:46 pm

Mah,

Did I say that all middle easterners blow up airplanes? No.

What I did say is that the a$$holes keep blowing up planes. Those a$$holes are almost exclusively middle eastern. This should not be a difficult concept for you. If you blow up a planeload of innocent people, you are an a$$hole.

Try to follow my logic. Ask youself the following questions.

1. Am I from the middle east?

2. Do I blow up airplanes?

If you answered "yes" to only number 1, you are not an a$$hole.

If you answered yes to number 2, you are an A$$HOLE.

(incidentely, if you answered "yes" to number two, the odds sre VERY high that you also answered "yes" to number one.)

Just so I don't run the risk of offending MAH any more, I will add that I too have traveled throughout the middle east and northern africa, and enjoyed the countries and people very much. I met some wonderful friends there.

However, I stand by my statement that A$$HOLES from the middle east keep blowing up our planes.

So, in closing MAH, try to read my posts with a little more comprehention and a little less defensiveness. It strikes me as rather ironic that you are concerned that I might offend terrorists. It seems to me that you might find a better target for your critiques. I know, why don't you start with the people who are trying to BLOW UP OUR AIRPLANES. Remember, I insulted terrorists, not middle easterners. I am aware that there is a difference. Are you?
 
teva
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Sat Jan 26, 2002 4:25 am

goingboeing,
you say:
Before ramming 4 airliners into buildings and the ground, I suggest spending less time in the jihad and more time out with civilized people.

DO you mean you are civilized and not people leaving in the middle east?
Then study history and you will be amazed to see all the things those people brought to our civilization !!!

It is with sentences like this that you can create anti american feelings.Due to my job for an american company, a lot of people ask me: "why don't american like us?"
Think about this before overreacting. A minority has been responsible for the atttack. Do not judge a people because of the action of a very small minority. Or you may create anger, and transform the minority in a majority.
NAna...
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Sat Jan 26, 2002 4:38 am

Hell, when I read this topic I´m not really surprised that US citizens are not really beloved in many countries. Most of them behave in a completely neutral way, however some express "very strong" opinions which are not really helpful when wanting to create a better image.

Back to the threat: the main reason why US carrier to the MEG are politics - which strongly influence economics and make it thus unattractive for many US majors to fly to those countries. For most majors it is plain cheaper to direct travellers to the MEG via a European hub of its partner.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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od-bwh
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Sat Jan 26, 2002 3:26 pm

Mah: I won't reply to any insult if I were you!! I've been trying to make good relationships with people around, but it seems like they are filled with the thoughts that Arabs are terrorists and that they hate other nations: not only Americans!!! Leave them with their thoughts anyways.

MEA: I've heared that MEA was considering the A330 as a replacement for the A310, but Sept 11 came and blew up everything. HOpe they will recover fast. As for SYD: with Malaysian Airlines stoped flying BEY-KUL, I hope MEA will reconsider flying to SYD...

For all: Why don't you pay a visit to any country in the ME!!! U can decide then.
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od-bwh
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Sat Jan 26, 2002 3:33 pm

MEA: I made up this registration number Big grin

OD-BWH
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fly_emirates
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Sat Jan 26, 2002 3:45 pm

guys, if US carriers flew to the middle east.. it wouldnt be profitable for them. because as a flight attendant, i heard from many passengers that they prefer waiting at any european airport to connect to USA rather than taking an american carrier to the USA directly. i tried to understand why, so i heard about some thing called de-regulation. American carriers, even before 911, since i have flown United and Northwest in addition to American, dont have that impressive service if compared to BA or LH - i wouldnt say Emirates, becuase i work on them, so i cant judge fairly- so if you are paying the same fare and getting better service on a KLM or a BA flight, why would you take an airline that is trying to cut cost on every thing which absolutely affects their service and the attitude of many of their crew?
 
od-bwh
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RE: Why Aren't There US In The ME?

Sat Jan 26, 2002 4:06 pm

I've been told by a friend who flown Gulf Air non-stop from BAH to JFK a couple of years ago, that it was extremely exhausting. No one I guess can tolerate the sound of jets for 20+ hrs nonstop. That's why most pax prefer connecting at a European hub.

what about those who fly US-Asia, or Europe-Asia: what do you think about these extra long fligths??
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