MD-11er
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 11:32 pm

Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:23 am

The Belgian Pilots are looking for some support, they ask those who want to fill their petition.
You can find it at:
http://64.4.20.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=NL&lah=877a7848426ab9376e6caa45c787be1b&lat=1011884921&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2ebeca%2ebe

As an ex-SN Cabin Crew Member I signed it of course.
I hope to see a new Belgian carrier asap.

MD-11er
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:25 am

Sorry MD-11er, I can't reach your link -->error

Rgds.
Spitfire
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
MD-11er
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 11:32 pm

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:41 am

Sorry, go try this:

http://www.beca.be/

and click on the small window that opens in the top left corner.
 
Ndebele
Posts: 2847
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2001 3:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:49 am

I guess normally you have to be a citizen of Belgium to sign such a list, don't you  Confused
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:57 am

I think that everybody is welcome. The more signature, the best...
Spitfire
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
SN-A330
Posts: 1052
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:38 am

RE: Ndebele

Fri Jan 25, 2002 1:05 am

Ndebele,

You don't have to be a citizen of Belgium. Like Spitfire said, the more signatures, the better. I think even Ceilidh will post in the petition !

Regards, SN-A330
I would rather be flying...
 
A330DAT
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 2:21 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 1:09 am

Very good idea MD-11er  Big thumbs up
 
MD-11er
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 11:32 pm

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 1:44 am

Yeah Ceilidh,
be a good guy, sign the petition.
 Smokin cool
 
Ndebele
Posts: 2847
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2001 3:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 1:48 am

I have signed it. "Up to now, 369 people have signed this e-petition".

369 people? That's very few! How many signatures do they need?

ps: I'm still not sure if my German signature counts. I'm not a lawyer, but afaik according to German law, which is European law (i.e. Belgian law?), you need to be citizen of the affected country. In this case, we try to convince the state of Belgium to spend Belgian tax-payer money in supporting Belgian pilots. But heck, at worst they will not accept my signature. I really hope this (foreign) signature helped.
 
MD-11er
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 11:32 pm

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 2:02 am

369 is few because they just begab their petition.
It will grow for sure.
Even if your vote doesn't count (what I am not sure off so it might count) we are very happy that you support us.
 Big thumbs up
 
Guest

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 4:37 am

Me, Support BeCA?!?!

Perhaps if they hadn't been so arrogant, they would still have jobs.

As far as I am concerned, it's BeCA that is directly responsible for the collapse of both SR and SN - due to their intransigence over Muller's Survival Plan' which caused SAir Group's banker's to pull the plug.
 
User avatar
apuneger
Posts: 2964
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:43 pm

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 4:54 am

There you go...I signed the petition as well

Ivan
Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
DE727UPS
Posts: 810
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 10:55 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:18 am

I signed it. I'm in support of anything Ceilidh doesn't support....
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:26 am

Ceilidh as usual didn't understand that ALL the jobless pilots in Belgium have to face that problem. Not only those Sabenian affiliated at the BeCA but all the others as well (Citybird,...).
This is not supporting the BeCA , it's just to support PILOTS !!!

But Ceilidh is not a pilot, so he can't understand what is the meaning of that kind of support (he is just an ugly businessman without business)!!
What else can we expect from that guy?
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:33 am

Here is the mail from the BeCA (in three languages!):

PILOTS WITHOUT A LICENCE...
Dear Madam, Dear Sir,

How would you feel if you were looking for a job and your diploma expires from one day to another? That is what we, pilots are living right now.

It has been 3 months now since City Bird and Sabena went bankrupt and there is still no solution available today to keep our licences current neither for the young pilots who still have loans to pay for their education which costs € 75.000 (3.000.000BEF).

We have set up an "e-petition" now to gather support for our struggle for our licences. You can find it on the following site : http://www.beca.be as well as some more information about our problem.

If you want to support us even more we would be very grateful to you if you could forward this mail to your address directory.

If you prefer not to support this matter, we would like to apologize us for having sent this mail to you.

We do wish you all the best for 2002!

For the BeCA

Annick Lebbe
Vice Presidente BeCA Job Seekers Joël Gans
Vice President BeCA ex-Sabena Léo D'hondt
President BeCA



PILOTEN ZONDER DIPLOMA
Mevrouw, Mijnheer,

Wat zou u, als werkzoekende, ervan vinden indien uw diploma van de ene dag op de andere vervalt? Dat is wat wij, piloten nu meemaken.

Reeds 3 maanden geleden gingen City Bird en Sabena failliet en vandaag is er nog steeds geen oplossing voor de problematiek van de piloten betreffende het onderhoud van hun diploma's (vliegvergunning met kwalificaties) evenmin voor de jonge piloten die nog hun leningen van € 75.000 (3.000.000BEF) moeten aflossen voor de kosten van hun beroepsopleiding.

Wij hebben nu een "e-petitie" op touw gezet waarin eenieder onze strijd voor onze diploma's kan steunen op de volgende site : http://www.beca.be. U vindt er tevens meer informatie.

Indien u ons nog meer wil steunen, zouden wij u zeer dankbaar zijn indien u deze mail ook wil forwarden naar uw adressenbestand.

Indien u liever niet op onze oproep ingaat, gelieve ons dan te verontschuldigen dat wij u deze mail hebben toegestuurd.

Wij wensen u in ieder geval het allerbeste toe voor het jaar 2002!

Voor de BeCA,

Annick Lebbe
Vice Presidente BeCA Job Seekers Joël Gans
Vice President BeCA ex-Sabena Léo D'hondt
President BeCA




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PILOTES SANS LICENCES...
Madame, Monsieur,

Comment vous sentiriez vous si vous cherchiez du travail et que votre diplôme pour exercer votre métier venait à expirer d'un jour à l'autre ? Eh bien, c'est ce que les pilotes vivent aujourd'hui.

Cela fait 3 mois que City Bird et Sabena ont fait faillite et il n'y a, à ce jour, aucune solution pour le maintien de nos licences. De plus, aucune solution n'est trouvée pour les jeunes pilotes qui ont des prêts à rembourser pour leur formation (coût de € 75.000, soit 3.000.000BEF).

Nous organisons une "e-pétition" afin d'avoir votre appui pour notre lutte pour nos licences. Vous la trouverez sur le site suivant : http://www.beca.be. Vous y trouverez également d'autres informations concernant la problématique pilote.

Si vous le désirez, nous vous serions reconnaissants d'envoyer ce courrier à votre liste d'adresses.

Si vous préférez ne pas soutenir notre initiative, veuillez nous excuser de vous avoir importuné par l'envoi de ce message.

Nous vous souhaitons tout le meilleur pour 2002!

Pour BeCA

Annick Lebbe
Vice Presidente BeCA Job Seekers Joël Gans
Vice President BeCA ex-Sabena Léo D'hondt
President BeCA


Many thanks for your support.
Rgds.
Spitfire

Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 9:43 am

No way! They brought the problem on themselves. Did the Topic line mean to say, "Begging Pilots Are Looking For Support"? When Belgium changes its uncompetitive labor laws and when the unions realize they have to compete in a global, competitive economy, then I'll sign.
I hope Ryanair is keeping track of the troublemakers at BeCA and don't hire them as they expand and grow.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
ILS
Posts: 2291
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 2:34 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 9:46 am

I signed it.
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 9:53 am

Come on, Spitfire, I respect your opinion and perspective. No need to use expletives. I do wish you well, but not your former union.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 10:00 am

I just re-read the petition. BeCA has learned NOTHING. Government is not the solution to your problems. Big government is evil, anti-jobs, anti-competitive and expensive. Look to your own strengths as individuals, but don't look to government to bail you out. The less government involvement in our economy and our lives, the better.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
Hoffa
Posts: 946
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 10:08 am

Whatever Bicoastal....  Insane
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6040
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RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 10:21 am

Signed.
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
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RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 6:34 pm

Thanks to those who already signed. For those who are still hesitating, please show us your solidarity.
Rgds.
Spitfire
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Sam the Lab
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 12:33 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 6:55 pm

Hey, Belgian Pilots, do you remember Virgin Express Ireland? An amount of Belgian nastiness played a part in VEI's downfall. Would not sign a petition for Belgian pilots for all the tea in China!
 
Guest

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 7:41 pm

Let me amplify my previous statement.

Basically, what this 'petition' amounts to is BeCA (a notoriously militant union responsible for the loss of thousands of jobs across Europe) demanding(!) that the government pay for their actions.

Anywhere else in the rest of the world, if you are a pilot and get made redundant, it's down to you to make sure that you maintain your currency if you want to stay in the business. If that means going off and flying for peanuts in Africa or paying for recurrent checks out of your own pocket - so be it.

If BeCA hadn't thought that they could play childish brinkmanship games with Christoph Muller over the Sabena Survival Plan, then they could still be flying their aircraft. However, the reality is that BeCA was directly responsible for the loss of all the VEI jobs as [b]Sam the Lab[/b] correctly pointed out; together with those at Swissair and other SAir Group companies.

Indeed, one might well question why - if they are so concerned about the welfare of their members - they simply don't lease a simulator or two themselves?
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2565
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:00 pm

Great, so BeCA is going to have a petition signed by hundreds of spotty school kids who use this server.....the grown ups are REALLY going to pay attention to that !!!

Ceilidh is absolutely 100% correct.

Despite how much the ex-SN staff bleat and moan, the facts are there that they and BeCA brought this all on themselves, virtually unassisted.

Sabena GONE
SAir Group GONE
CityBird GONE
VEI GONE

Brinksmanship is too generous a way to describe the attitude and behaviour of BeCA. They kick and scream when they don't get what they want; they act as if the world owes its members a living.
Arrogance, Ignorance and Immaturity would better describe them.....just look at how personal they get on this forum alone when someone voices dissent.

Sabena could have been saved.

As usual, BeCA and Sabena crews saw it as an opportunity to feather their own nests even more; sadly, they yet again pushed too far, only this time they pushed the golden egg well and truly out of the basket.

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:17 pm

Waooww!!!! ... What a powerfull union the BeCA is then !!!!
Completly insane. Proof that all those people here do not know the first word of what they are talking.
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:25 pm

Look at what C.Mûller said in "Le Soir" recently (sorry only in french):

Transport aérien Le dernier patron de la Sabena estime que le refus de Swissair de recapitaliser la compagnie est la seule cause de la faillite


Christoph Müller autopsie la Sabena



PIERRE-YVES THIENPONT




ENTRETIEN

Nom. Müller.

Prénom. Christoph.

Nationalité. Allemand.

Parcours. Licencié en administration des affaires, Christoph Müller, 39 ans, a travaillé pour Airbus avant de devenir vice-président du département financier de la Lufthansa.

Hobby. Pilote d'avion de tourisme.

BERNARD DEMONTY
Je débarrasse actuellement mon bureau... Dans quinze jours, je quitterai la Sabena House. Apparemment ému, Christoph Müller, patron de la compagnie nationale entre le premier août 2000 et le 25 décembre dernier, a accepté de nous donner sa première interview depuis la faillite, le 8 novembre dernier. Le classement en cours de tous ses papiers lui permet de revenir sur les cinq épisodes de la tragique agonie de « son » entreprise. Bilan.

1 Le 25 mai 2001. Le Swissair Group indique qu'il compte se retirer du capital de la Sabena. Pour moi, cette étape marque le commencement des gros problèmes de la Sabena. A vrai dire, Moritz Süter (NDLR : qui a précédé Mario Corti à la tête du holding suisse) avait déjà tenu des propos similaires, en janvier 2001. Nous aurions dû nous méfier, dès cette époque. Süter a, ensuite, quitté ses fonctions et nous avons repris espoir de voir Swissair respecter ses engagements de prendre une participation de 85 % dans la Sabena, conformément aux accords signés avec le gouvernement belge, en avril 2000.

Mais à la fin du mois de mai, nous avons compris : Swissair accepterait probablement de recapitaliser la Sabena, mais ce serait un ticket de sortie. C'est la première trahison de Swissair.

2 Le 17 juillet 2001, Swissair s'engage à réinjecter 258 millions d'euros dans la Sabena. C'est le fameux accord de l'hôtel Astoria. Je n'ai pas été associé à ces négociations. Je suis rentré de congé le lundi qui a suivi. Après cet accord, j'étais certain que Swissair honorerait cet engagement. Un grand nombre de banques suisses étaient impliquées et Swissair était assisté par une centaine de consultants du bureau KPMG. Je pensais que les banques préféreraient que Swissair paye afin d'être libéré de toute obligation vis-à-vis de la Sabena.

3 Le premier octobre 2001, Swissair refuse d'injecter les fonds promis et demande la protection judiciaire contre ses créanciers. C'est la deuxième trahison de Swissair. Le lundi premier octobre, Mario Corti, administrateur délégué de Swissair, nous a averti par fax qu'il refusait d'injecter les fonds promis. Le samedi précédent, nous sentions que quelque chose d'anormal se passait, à Zurich, et que Swissair préparait un redémarrage de ses activités à travers Crossair (NDLR : en abandonnant la Sabena). Mario Corti avait promis de nous appeler si un changement intervenait durant le week-end précédent le premier octobre. Il ne l'a jamais fait.

Swissair a justifié sa défection par les attentats du 11 septembre. C'est une excuse. Il suffit, pour s'en convaincre, de regarder les montants que Swissair a versés à ses autres filiales, LTU ou AOM. Ce sont de très gros montants. L'effort de Swissair vis-à-vis de la Sabena apparaît, finalement, très réduit. La grande question qui se pose, dès lors, aujourd'hui, c'est de savoir si Swissair savait, ou non, dès les accords de juillet, qu'il ne payerait pas les montants promis...

4 Le 5 octobre, le tribunal accorde le concordat à la Sabena. Depuis le 2 octobre, nous préparions un nouveau plan, sans Swissair. Il prévoyait une réduction de la capacité de 25 %. Nous nous étions réparti les rôles. Fred Chaffart était chargé des contacts avec les banques, le gouvernement s'occupait de trouver des investisseurs privés belges et j'étais personnellement chargé de contacter les grandes compagnies aériennes étrangères. Trois partenaires (NDLR : parmi lesquels American Airlines) étaient très intéressés; les négociations étaient très avancées, mais vu leurs difficultés financières (NDLR : après le 11 septembre), les compagnies se sentaient incapables de demander à leur conseil d'administration d'approuver un investissement.

Il faut dire que la dette de 250 millions d'euros effrayait les partenaires potentiels. Même en réalisant 100 millions d'euros de bénéfices par an, il aurait fallu 25 ans pour rembourser la dette. Sans parler du prix du fuel et du dollar... Finalement, au début novembre, nous avons décidé de demander la faillite.

5 Le 8 novembre 2001, le tribunal de commerce prononce la faillite de la Sabena. Ce fut le pire moment de ma carrière à la Sabena. Je pense que la seule cause de la faillite est le refus de Swissair d'apporter les fonds promis. Avec ces fonds, nous aurions pu assurer la survie de la compagnie, malgré le 11 septembre. Il nous aurait suffi de réduire les coûts et les capacités, en amendant notre plan. Il m'est difficile de commenter les événements qui ont suivi, parce que je n'étais plus associé aux décisions. Actuellement, je contribue à régler le sort de la Sobelair et celui de la filiale informatique, Atraxis.

Je participe aussi à l'élaboration des demandes de remboursement de l'argent que Swissair nous doit et les demandes de dommages et intérêts, à la suite du refus de verser les fonds.·


Le Soir du mardi 22 janvier 2002
© Rossel et Cie SA, Le Soir en ligne, Bruxelles, 2000
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:27 pm

And also this:
Transport aérien


Swissair a trahi, accuse Müller

L'ex-patron de la Sabena revient sur la mort de la compagnie


lesoir




BERNARD DEMONTY
Je suis en train de vider mon bureau. Dans deux semaines, je quitterai la Sabena. Quelques jours après l'annonce du décollage de la nouvelle compagnie aérienne belge, Christoph Müller, dernier patron de la Sabena, a accepté de nous livrer son témoignage. Pour lui, le refus de Swissair de recapitaliser la Sabena est la cause de la faillite. Le groupe suisse nous a trahi à deux reprises, explique-t-il. Une première fois, en mai 2001, lorsque Swissair a refusé, par la voix de son administrateur délégué, Mario Corti, de prendre une participation de 85 % dans la Sabena.

« Il aurait fallu clouer des avions au sol. Le conseil d'administration n'a pas accepté »
Pour le patron allemand, la deuxième trahison est intervenue le 1er octobre 2001, lorsque Swissair a refusé d'injecter 258 millions d'euros dans la compagnie belge, comme convenu dans les accords signés en juillet 2001. Nous avons été prévenus, le jour même, par simple fax... Swissair a invoqué les attentats du 11 septembre. Mais c'est une excuse. Il suffit de voir les montants que le holding helvétique a accepté de mobiliser pour ses autres filiales, notamment LTU et AOM.

Le patron déçu estime que s'il avait bénéficié de plus de temps et d'argent, il aurait pu redresser la Sabena. Christoph Müller assume toutefois sa part de responsabilité. Je pense que j'aurais dû prendre plus rapidement des décisions radicales. Entre août 2000 et mars 2001, nous avons perdu beaucoup de temps. Plusieurs audits indiquaient qu'il fallait changer de stratégie. Il aurait fallu clouer plusieurs avions au sol. Je le voulais. Mais le conseil d'administration n'a jamais accepté. Il n'était pas convaincu des difficultés. Et Swissair demeurait impassible. Müller fustige aussi le conseil, pour sa décision d'avoir accepté la commande de 34 Airbus.

Le patron de la Sabena loue l'efficacité du personnel mais regrette la réticence au changement. Le dialogue avec les délégués de terrain était bon, mais, pour les leaders nationaux, la Sabena était un enjeu national, auquel on ne pouvait pas toucher. Impossible de parler « business ». En Belgique, les syndicats, qui ne siègent pas dans les organes de décision, ont beaucoup de pouvoir mais pas assez de responsabilités. A présent, le dernier patron de la Sabena va se donner un peu de temps, avant de poursuivre sa carrière. De préférence à Bruxelles.·


Le Soir du mardi 22 janvier 2002
© Rossel et Cie SA, Le Soir en ligne, Bruxelles, 2000
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:29 pm

Some more :



« La DAT aurait dû démarrer plus vite »




Vous assistez, à présent, au décollage de la nouvelle DAT. Le plan mis en œuvre pour la nouvelle compagnie ressemble beaucoup à celui que vous avez tenté de mettre en place à la Sabena ?

Je ne suis pas associé aux discussions concernant le démarrage de la nouvelle compagnie mais je constate effectivement que le plan ébauché par le consultant Arthur D. Little suit la même philosophie que le plan que nous avions élaboré pour la Sabena. La seule différence, c'est que la capacité a été réduite davantage. Ce n'est pas étonnant, car le trafic aérien européen a diminué dès l'invasion américaine en Afghanistan. Je pense donc que, dans les mêmes circonstances, nous aurions amendé notre plan, pour arriver aux mêmes capacités qu'Arthur D. Little.

Pensez-vous que la nouvelle compagnie sera performante sur le marché ?

Je pense qu'il faut croire en ce plan s'il est le même que celui que nous avions élaboré pour la Sabena. Ce que je pense, néanmoins, c'est que la nouvelle compagnie démarre ses activités tardivement.

« Virgin a fait perdre 100 millions d'euros à la Sabena »
Il fallait relancer la DAT au lendemain de la faillite et ajouter les liaisons long-courriers dans la semaine qui a suivi. Je ne blâme personne, en disant cela, car les capitaux n'étaient pas présents. Mais aujourd'hui, les concurrents de la DAT ont acquis une position très forte, à Bruxelles-National.

Que pensez-vous du travail accompli par Maurice Lippens et Etienne Davignon ?

Je pense que tout le monde a été étonné de voir comment Crossair (NDLR : la filiale de Swissair spécialisée dans les vols régionaux, et qui a pris la succession de Swissair en tant que compagnie nationale helvétique) a pu bénéficier de l'apport des entreprises privées suisses. L'exemple méritait d'être suivi. Je pense toutefois que les investisseurs belges ont été approchés trop tardivement. Ceci dit, il faut féliciter Maurice Lippens et Etienne Davignon pour leur travail. Leur défi était pratiquement impossible à réussir.

Que pensez-vous du projet de fusion entre la DAT et Virgin Express ?

Virgin Express a fait perdre 100 milions d'euros à la Sabena, à cause du contrat (NDLR : signé par Paul Reutlinger, qui a précédé Christoph Müller à la direction de la Sabena) qui nous liait avec Virgin. Ce contrat nous était totalement défavorable et il a largement contribué à la faillite. D'autre part, les passagers de la Sabena, qui volaient avec Virgin Express, en application de cette convention, étaient très mécontents du service. C'était la deuxième cause de réclamation, après la perte des bagages. Dans ces conditions, une fusion avec Virgin Express ne me semble pouvoir être envisagée que si la qualité du produit Virgin change radicalement.·

B. Dy


Le Soir du mardi 22 janvier 2002
© Rossel et Cie SA, Le Soir en ligne, Bruxelles, 2000
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:31 pm

And finaly:





« La faillite, mon pire moment »




Christoph Müller, le dernier patron de la Sabena, rassemble actuellement ses dossiers, avant de quitter défintivement son bureau de la Sabena House, dans quinze jours. Depuis deux ans et demi, je suis sur la brèche. Je crois que je vais faire un break avant de poursuivre ma carrière. Je ne sais pas encore si je continuerai à travailler dans le secteur aérien. Je souhaiterais néanmoins rester à Bruxelles, c'est un endroit parfait.

Le meilleur moment de Christoph Müller, à la Sabena ? Mon instant préféré, je le vivais à chaque fois que je voyais décoller un avion de la Sabena. Le pire moment de la carrière de Christoph Müller n'est, dès lors, par difficile à deviner. Il est arrivé le jour où les avions n'ont plus quitté le sol. Le pire moment, c'est la faillite. Mais je retiens toutefois de mon expérience le fort engagement du personnel. A la veille de la faillite, le taux de satisfaction de la clientèle n'avais jamais été aussi élevé. C'est l'un des paradoxes de la Sabena : un fort attachement du personnel, avec son corollaire, la grande réticence des salariés à accepter le changement.·

B. Dy


Le Soir du mardi 22 janvier 2002
© Rossel et Cie SA, Le Soir en ligne, Bruxelles, 2000
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2565
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:44 pm

Spitfire

Might I suggest a clearer picture can be taken by people on the outside looking in than by someone who is understandably emotional and aggrieved at recent events.

I don't wish a single pilot out of a job, but BeCA will be judged by history and no ammount of protestation will alter that.

BeCA's actions in the past have put other airline staff and crews (and colleagues) in the awful situation you find yourselves in today.

I hope you are all in full employment again soon, but for those reasons I will never ever sign that petition.

Regards

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
Guest

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 9:12 pm

Spitfire - you described BeCA as "completely insane". You're absolutely spot on, they were.  Big thumbs up When you get to the point where outsiders are accurately able to prophesise what will happen if they do certain actions (as I and many others did) then that is a clear sign that they have 'lost the plot'.

BlueShamu330s is right - had it not been for the incessant 'social actions' by BeCA and others - and in particular BeCA's sabotage of the Survival Plan - then SAir Group's bankers would not have pulled the plug. The primary reason that they did this when they did was because they were not prepared to see the waste of a further €200 million into Sabena.
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 10:23 pm

Sorry, Ceilidh, but in my opinion, it's YOU and some others here who are insane.

How can you say that a small group of people (+/- 1000 pilots) from an professionnal association (AND NOT AN UNION !!! that makes a lot of difference here in Belgium) can put down SAirgroup, City Bird, VEI, SABENA, and what ever ....AOM, Air Liberté perhaps?...

Have some common sense, there are directors, CEO and so on.. who REALY take the decisions last of all. Understand what Müller said : the principal responsable for the Sabena bankrupcy IS THE SAirgroup itself !!!!
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
TCA256
Posts: 695
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 3:59 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 10:26 pm

I signed the petition and friends as well....good luck
to all of you, ex-workers at SN, Citybird and other
defunct companies.....
 
Ndebele
Posts: 2847
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2001 3:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Fri Jan 25, 2002 10:59 pm

To anybody who has signed lately - can you keep us updated how many people have signed already? Because I didn't find any link telling you the actual number of signatures - they only tell you when you sign the petition (what I have already done).
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sat Jan 26, 2002 2:33 am

Ok, Ndebele, I'll try to keep you informed about that.
Rgds and thank you
Spitfire
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Hoffa
Posts: 946
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sat Jan 26, 2002 3:00 am

How can you say that a small group of people (+/- 1000 pilots) from an professionnal association (AND NOT AN UNION !!! that makes a lot of difference here in Belgium

So if BeCA was a "professional association" and not a union, what right did they having causing strikes, displacing pax, and engaging in endless disruption for the airline itself.

You are correct---BeCA was never an officially recognized SN union. That's why it amazes me they caused as much damage as they did dispite not being recognized.
 
A330DAT
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 2:21 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sat Jan 26, 2002 5:09 am

Ndebele - Where did you see those figures?
 
310_engineer
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sat Jan 26, 2002 8:08 am

Okay I signed too together with my wife, it's normal that I support them.

But there is something else I would like to have your attention for:
Today 700 technicians were fired by Sabena Technics due to economical reasons.
All these technicians were working with a license issued by Sabena Technics, JAR 145 approved maintenace center.
This license is worth nothing outside the company wich results in the fact that these people have no license anymore to work on an aircraft.
Since 01/06/2001 the JAR66 license came out for Full JAA authority members. Belgium is one of them. This JAR66 is a personal license and can be used in other companies.
But thanks to the Belgian Governement and their lak of interest, this license can't be issued yet in Belgium. Result:
It will be very difficult for them to find another job in the Airline Industry whilst they are good technicians and have a good CV.
Without the JAR66 license they will not be paid for what they are worth.( there is a big difference in salary between licensed and unlicensed technicians)
The current situation in Belgian Aviation is not very bright and the only way to find a new job (in aviation industry) for these people will be out of the country. Contract work is interesting, but again without the JAR66 it's hard to find a good job.

So it is not only the pilots who are having license problems, but we (who kept you flying safe for years) are in the same s**t.

There is an association of engineers in creation. They are trying to find a legal way to speed up the procedure to obtain a JAR66 license in Belgium. And if necessary we go to the European Court.

We hope the Belgian Pilots will support us too.

Regards and all the best to all of you.
Mike

Soon more info and website from the engineers association.
for info about JAR66:
http://www.jaa.nl/maintenance/documents/jar66147_frame.html
 
A330DAT
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 2:21 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sat Jan 26, 2002 8:46 am

I will support you too Mike. You have just as many rights as anyone else. It has not been clear in the past but let it be clear today that we can NOT live without eachother and that EVERYONE, from top to bottom, is just as important! It is also clear, once again, who is at fault. Yet more proof of how the government closes it's eyes and pretends nothing is wrong.

I wish you much strength Mike. Keep us up to date from your side.
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sat Jan 26, 2002 3:47 pm

Hoffa,

Here is a copy of a page from the BeCA site:

http://www.beca.be.

Maybe could you see more clearly what is the aim of a pilot association.

-- The "parents" of the B.C.A. are the BFCA and the ABPNL, the two associations of Airline Pilots and Flight Engineers in Belgium.

Our members are the Cockpit Crew Members of the Belgian Airlines : DAT, Sobelair, EAT-DHL and Virgin Express. We have also Flight Instructors, Students and Job seekers as members of the B.C.A.

Our main goals and activities :


- FLIGHT SAFETY.

- Professional interests of our members.

- Relationship and social dialogue with the Belgian Airlines' management's.

- Contacts at international level (IFALPA, ECA, GPA, Eurocontrole, ICAO …)
at national level (Belgian CAA, airport's authorities, ministers, press, ….).

- Specialised commissions in economic,industrial and technical fields.
Services to members : legal, fiscal and medical advises, help in case of accident/incident or professional difficulties, job seeking, regular information. --

We always were sustained in our "social" actions by at LEAST ONE of the recognized unions in Belgium. That's the legal way to exercise the right people have to strike in this country. And there is only 4 (four)recognized unions in Belgium : FGTB - CSC - CGSLB - CNC (those are the french abreviations, they have also a flemish counterpart...).

But you have to know that the unions are not "legaly" responsible for their acts, nor are the political groups and the ministers... Quite easy, isn't it?

In this case it is easy and simplistic to put all the anger on the BeCA shoulders. Those who are making this kind of jugdment are just showing their ignorance of the problem and their narrow spirit. We have our part of responsability of course, but so have ALL the people involved (Governement(s), Ministers, Administrators, Shareholders, SAirGroup ,CEO's, Directors, Staff, Employees,... even Bin Laden and the september 11th ...).
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Hoffa
Posts: 946
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sat Jan 26, 2002 4:18 pm

I don't wish any ill will to any ex-Sabena engineers, pilots, or F/A's. Personally I wish the old SN could take flight again just so these people could be looked after.

But I thought BeCA was never officially recognized as an official Sabena union. I understand they may have had the support of the other "umbrella" main Belgian labor unions, but legally speaking they had no right to strike or cause social actions. (not that management could do anything about it anyway). Is this correct?
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sat Jan 26, 2002 4:42 pm

Hoffa,

Effectively, the BeCA is NOT an labor union (it's a recognized and official 'professional association' and so has no legal right to call for a strike by itself. The BeCA have to be "covered" by at least one of the legal unions and so were we everytime.

In fact, as a professional association BeCA point out the problem(s)
his members (pilots, flight engineer) have with the managment of a company or with some new rules, or wathever... Then the BeCA delegates try to solve this by discussions with the company managment (and sometimes for month,... if not YEARS !!).

If after all this time, there are still no agreement, the problem is discussed with delegates of the unions and a new meeting is set up with those and the management. Only after this is a strike forecast if still no acceptable agreement is find.
The strike is the last of all means of pressure used, and it is in fact a defeat for both parties. It is not a simple and childish game. The decision to strike is not taken easily, be sure of that.
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Guest

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:34 pm

Spitfire - if that's the case, how come they were taken to court by SN over their illegal social actions - and the court ruled that these actions were, indeed, illegal?

Then of course there were the bully-boy activities over VEI; plus the 'dirty tricks' campaign orchestrated by them against VEX; a campaign of intimidation against non striking pilots and against unions that wouldn't support them.

Add to that the deliberate sabotage of the only chance of survival that SN had - because they thought they knew more about how to run the airline than management did.

Professional pilots? Sounds more like professional thugs to me.
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sat Jan 26, 2002 8:09 pm

You are not very well informed Ceilidh. First, in an "summary procedure", court said that we have to stop the strike.

BUT, when later they examined the case in detail, they said that our action was NOT illegal !!! So our action was totaly legal.
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Guest

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sat Jan 26, 2002 8:51 pm

Really?  Big grin Then how come one of the conditions of BeCA's going to the negotiating table was that SN had to forego its award from the court? And that they had to withdraw their actions against BeCA?
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sat Jan 26, 2002 9:27 pm

If I do remember well it took more that one month for the case to be re-examinated by the court. In meantime, we tried to have negotiation with SN. That's the reason why we ask them to first withdraw their action.
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sat Jan 26, 2002 9:39 pm

Just signed the petition. Didn´t have to think twice before doing.
However there was no number of how many already signed it.


"if that's the case, how come they were taken to court by SN over their illegal social actions - and the court ruled that these actions were, indeed, illegal?"

Legal does not mean right and illegal does not mean they were not right.  Big grin
They sure had the right on their side!

Stratofish

The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
gaut
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2001 10:57 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sun Jan 27, 2002 4:40 am

Ceilidh,

Beca responsible for the SR bankruptcy...You are soooooooo stupid

Spitfire

J'ai signé la pétition, bonne chance à tous et laisse tomber ce connard de Ceilidh, on a beau lui expliquer il continue à écrire les mêmes stupidités...Ignore le.

Gaut
«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2565
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: Begian Pilots Are Looking For Support

Sun Jan 27, 2002 5:16 am

Gaut

I see you are a student; perhaps a lesson in recent Belgian aviation history is needed before you come out with judgement on Ceilidh.

The bigger fool is he who makes judgements without a grasp of even the most basic of facts.

Shamu

So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(