TechRep
Topic Author
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Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 6:53 am

728 Vs. 170

Sun Jan 27, 2002 9:28 am

Overall what aircraft will prove to be more successful? The D0728 or the ERJ-170? I would like to know what the community thinks about the two aircraft.
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: 728 Vs. 170

Sun Jan 27, 2002 10:06 am

The 728 i think.. Do could offer as a huge family from the small 528 up to the big 1128, offering a passenger span of 55-130 passengers while having maximum commonality. And, of course, it looks great  Big grin

I also like the idea of an 728AWACS
 
FlagshipAZ
Posts: 3192
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 12:40 am

RE: 728 Vs. 170

Sun Jan 27, 2002 10:52 am

I think the 728 will be a more successful aircraft. Granted, the 170 is an excellent aircraft as well, but the 728 has a wider cabin, which appeals to the paying public & the airlines. And the landing weights for both aircrafts are also the same, meaning less fees. One advantage the 170 has over the 728 is more range tho. There is a user here, Flying-Tiger I believe, is an authority on RJs, IMHO. If he sees this topic, he can probably give more insight here. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
TechRep
Topic Author
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RE: 728 Vs. 170

Sun Jan 27, 2002 12:46 pm

I work/support the Do728 project I am just interested in public opinion. We are very excited about the 728 family and we are on track to get first flight around Spring of this year. We have many advantages over the ERJ-170. Currently the ERJ-170 project is having difficulty with FBW and software interface, we have an "Iron Bird" (mock-up) that has already put thousands of hours of testing on the flight systems, Embraer just can't say this. Our aircaft will have a max cruise of mach .82 compared to mach .80 for the 170. There are trade off's sure but overall I think the Do728 will sell better and long term be a better aircraft. I would love to hear more opinion about the product and invite you to do so.

TechRep
 
Flying-Tiger
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

RE: 728 Vs. 170

Sun Jan 27, 2002 4:49 pm

I believe the 728 will be more successful, given the fact that a "real" business class can be installed due to the cabin width. A second advantage could be the possibility to offer a convertible derivate of the 928 which increases the earning potential airlines have. Cruise speed is not so much an issue in Europe and the US East Coast, it will only pay off on longer segements.

A problem could be the price tag which is - as far as I know - a bit higher than the Embraer´s and the missing LCY-capability.

There are three things I would improve:
- decide on the second 728 derivate as soon as possible, I would favour the 528, the 1128 could come at a later stage if customers demand it. The 528 would be better suited for todays needs, there are several airlines which have not yet decided on a 50/55-seater (Cimber Air, SAS Communter, CSA).

- give the 728 the capability to operate out of LCY - a good sales argument in Europe

- develop a "rough-terrain" 928-200 which is capabale to operate from less developed airports/fields (I think the ultimate choice for a number of afircan airlines would be a "rough-terrain 928-200 Combi")

FlagshipAZ, thanks for the flowers (as we say in Germany)!

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
TechRep
Topic Author
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RE: 728 Vs. 170

Sun Jan 27, 2002 9:27 pm

You will see the 528 before an 1128 I can assure you. I can't go into details here but probably a Chinese launch customer.

TechRep
 
nfx
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:52 am

RE: 728 Vs. 170

Sun Jan 27, 2002 9:30 pm

don`t forget that the Emb 170 will be around much earlier
 
TechRep
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Scope Clause

Sun Jan 27, 2002 10:04 pm

I see labor Pilot Labor Union's as the biggest hurdle to the 70 seater market, with thier "scope clause".

This is where the major airline pilot unions negotiate with the major airline management, and generally seek to limit the amount of jet flying that can be done by the regional carriers. As a general rule this limit comes in around 70 seats although not all airlines have this restriction. As an example, the recent agreement between American and it's pilot union states that any 70 seat jet flying must be done by the major carrier. This makes it very difficult to economically justify operating a 70 seat jet if you are carrying the pilots' salaries from the major carrier. This has, and continues to, limit the development of the 70 seat jet business in the U.S.

My opinion the 70 seat market will be a tough nut to crack in the USA. Labor unions are bascially dictating what aircraft your favorite airline will receive. Thus making it very difficult to economically justify operating a 70 seat jet if you are carrying the pilots' salaries from the major carrier. However there will be much success in Europe.

The USA is ripe for point-to-point service. Within North America we can identify over 50 cities that have a population of between a half million and 2 million people, and these cities provide huge point-to-point potential for 70 seat size aircraft. The range, capacity and the economics of our new 70-100 seat aircraft are well suited to develop a whole new system of point-to-point operation within Europe and within the North American systems, therefore bypassing the congested hubs; something which, as passengers, we will all applaud.

European regional airline traffic now rivals the U.S. in both scope and volume. Continued economic growth and European liberalization support predictions of 10% traffic growth over the next five years with an average of about 9% over the next 10 years. Two thousand five hundred regional aircraft are projected to be delivered in Europe over the next 20 years, with growth initially in 50 and 70 seats and later up to 100 seat aircraft. The airplane size and the range are well suited to European, point-to-point operation.

TechRep
 
cv640
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RE: 728 Vs. 170

Mon Jan 28, 2002 1:04 am

I don't know about the rest of the world, but think that scope in the US will be more of a problem for the 90 seaters. All you have to do is look at their sales, only Mesa that I know of has placed an order for the 90 seat CRJ. I think you'll see limited but definite 70 seaters in the US; Eagle, ASA, Horizon, Mesaba, Air Wisconsin, Mesa, all have 70 seaters, well roughly 70 in teh case of Mesaba and Air Wisconsin. I believe Comair has some on order, could be wrong with that. There will be very stricit limits to their numbers, as I think CoEx will probably bring the only large 70 seat order that I can think of on the horizon. That is when they starting trading as an independent company.

The 90 seaters though will probably not catch on in the US. Majors are loosing their 100 seaters very steadily. They are being replaced with larger aircraft on markets that can sustain them or by more frequent flights on RJs for those that can't. Its very tough to make money on the 100 seat airplane at a major airline, especially with new 100 seaters approaching the price tag of 120-130 seaters. As for giving them to regional carriers, I believe every major airline CEO knows that they could neever get scope adjusted to allow that.
 
Mark_D.
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RE: 728 Vs. 170

Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:59 am

CV640

Scope clause is the only cost --and logistical, if a regional affiliate is affected -- precluding element for the majors not to go for the bigger RJs, CV640 (I hope you aren't suggesting that sticker-price or even direct-operating costs are. Compare a CRJ-900 with a Boeing 717 by those criteria, for instance, with flight crew costs removed from the tally).

Anyway, I think scope clauses even in the U.S. market are in their last couple of years in existence, before they too fade away as a factor. The economic arguments for the carriers --and affiliates--are going to be too strong for them to keep agreements like that in place for much longer.

As for the original "728 vs 170" discussion in this thread, seems like a whole lot of folks are saying it's probably going to be the 728, that wins! At least from what we know at this point, anyway.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: 728 Vs. 170

Mon Jan 28, 2002 4:11 pm

nfx: First delivery of the Embraer 170 is scheduled for late 2002, however with the current technical problems on the prototypes which have so far prevented the first flight (heard that the FBW is making troubles) these could be delayed. The 728-100 is only roughly six months behind, first delivery to Lufthansa is planned for June or July 2003.

The 728 will have problems to sell in South-America, especially in Brazil due to the protectionist attitude of the government via the tax legislation which will push TAM, VASP and VARIG (i.e. Rio-Sul, Nordeste) towards the Embraer 170. As someone already pointed out, there is a somewhat uneven playing field, Bombardier and Embraer are both actively supported by their governments, Fairchild Dornier has to do it all by itself.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
Hoffa
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RE: 728 Vs. 170

Mon Jan 28, 2002 4:15 pm

Now that Dassault have taken a big stake in Embraer S.A., can we expect to see a little political pressure on the French regional airlines to go with the 170?
 
Greg
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RE: 728 Vs. 170

Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:55 pm

Are their wieghts close to each other?
I think the 728 would prove more marketable based on the previous post of having the capability of a full size business cabin.

Per a previous post..who is the next customer????

P.S. Techrep...are the doors articulating (as airbus) or do they swing out (like boeing 737)?

Thanks for the reply.
Greg/
 
TechRep
Topic Author
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RE: 728 Vs. 170

Sat Feb 02, 2002 10:03 am

The doors articulate like the AirBus. You can view the doors being delivered, installed and opened on my site. The Video is very large like 130MB but well worth the download. It shows the 728 in flight, with a 360 degree concept view and contrails from wing tips with superheated air off the CF34-8's.

TechRep
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
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RE: 728 Vs. 170

Sat Feb 02, 2002 10:49 am

Tech rep,

Not questioning your knowledge on the 170. And I also take this with a grain of salt since I read this on Embraer's site. But I read in one of thier "progress reports" that they have over 1,000 hours already logged on thier "iron bird". Maybe it's a different type of system altogether, but it sounds like the are indeed testing the 170 systems on an "iron bird"

Also, in regarding the "business seating" in the two aircraft. I personally think Embraer may have a good thing with the three abreast agangement. Most people like it when they get to have a section of seats all to themselves. With the three accross arangement, business passengers will have that nice big seat all to themselves. But this is just my two cents. We'll just have to wait to see what happens. I wish best of luck to both companies.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.

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