INFINITI329
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Posts: 1975
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AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:43 am

The American Airlines Group is raising the pay at its wholly owned carriers. (Only PSA & Envoy were in mentioned in the article). Regional compensation continues rise. However I am unsure if the non-wholly owned carriers will be able to compete in the future with wholly owned carriers for new candidates, Highest first year pay is still at YX at $40/hr.

At PSA
- First year pay will rise from $24.62 to $38.50
-$15,000 sign on bonus
-$20,000 anniversary bonus
-$ 5,000 CRJ Type Rating

At Envoy
- First year pay will rise from $25.84 to $37.90
-$ 20,000

http://www.psaairlines.com/careers/pilots/
http://www.envoyair.com/pilots/
http://www.dallasnews.com/business/airl ... pilots.ece
 
mhkansan
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:41 pm

Even the wholly owned regionals are competing with each other for new pilots. The best benefit is the flow through to AA and full AA flight benefits.

I wonder how long this is sustainable or if we will see a merger of wholly-owned regional carriers again.
 
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AAlaxfan
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:56 am

mhkansan wrote:
Even the wholly owned regionals are competing with each other for new pilots. The best benefit is the flow through to AA and full AA flight benefits.

I wonder how long this is sustainable or if we will see a merger of wholly-owned regional carriers again.

IMHO, I don't think we'll see a merger between wholly-owned regional airlines. What's more likely to happen is a merger between the independent regional airlines, with a contraction of service from the independents and more mainline / wholly-owned service .
Grumpy. Not a dwarf, not an attitude. It's a lifestyle.
 
B777LRF
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:04 am

40 bucks an hour, 80 hours a month, for a total of 3200. However you slice and dice it, that's still peanuts. Don't know about you, but I wouldn't get out of bed in the morning for that kind of money. Certainly not with 1500+ hours under my belt and a 150K ATPL loan in the bank!

Aircraft loaders in my neck of the woods are earning around 35 bucks an hour, plus pension and benefits, working 145 hours a month.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
VS11
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:05 am

What anniversary is the anniversary bonus at? Every year after the first year? Just after the first year?

I just found the answer: first year anniversary. PSA looks attractive - overall $35,000 additional bonus pay in the first year. Not a bad incentive.
 
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AAlaxfan
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:49 pm

B777LRF wrote:
40 bucks an hour, 80 hours a month, for a total of 3200. However you slice and dice it, that's still peanuts. Don't know about you, but I wouldn't get out of bed in the morning for that kind of money.


$38400 for 960 hours of work plus an additional $35000 as a bonus. $73400 for 960 hours is an effective $76.46 per hour. I'd drag my butt out or bed for that. I worked 2080 hours for $41,600 and I was in the top pay scale.
Grumpy. Not a dwarf, not an attitude. It's a lifestyle.
 
kabq737
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:34 pm

Sounds pretty good to me. I sure hope pay continues to get better as I get closer to joining the airlines!
320, 321, 333, 733, 73G, 738, 739, 744, 752, 764, 789, C208, CR7, CR9, BE20, MD88, MD90, E70, E90, TRIM
 
Flighty
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:45 pm

777. how many aircraft loaders have a career path to make $300,000?
 
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Acey559
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:07 am

AAlaxfan wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
40 bucks an hour, 80 hours a month, for a total of 3200. However you slice and dice it, that's still peanuts. Don't know about you, but I wouldn't get out of bed in the morning for that kind of money.


$38400 for 960 hours of work plus an additional $35000 as a bonus. $73400 for 960 hours is an effective $76.46 per hour. I'd drag my butt out or bed for that. I worked 2080 hours for $41,600 and I was in the top pay scale.


That's grossly overly simplistic, though. We may fly 800-1000 hours a year (varies widely) but we sure as heck work more than that. I just spent 8 days on the road, about 50 hours of duty, and was paid for 19 hours because that's how much I flew. No pay for cockpit preparation, maintenance issues, preflight walk arounds, etc. I love my job and am in no way trying to make it seem like we have a rough time of things, but saying we only work 1000 hours a year isn't entirely correct.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 1729
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:33 am

Flighty wrote:
777. how many aircraft loaders have a career path to make $300,000?


Not many, if any. Same for pilots starting out today - few, if any, will end up making that kind of money. But that's not the point, the point is that salaries for regional pilots are so much in the toilet, it's a joke.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
twaconnie
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:15 pm

I guess you have to start some place at least they have a way to build flight time. There was a time when there were no jobs and no money for pilots.
 
bahadir
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:55 pm

AAlaxfan wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
40 bucks an hour, 80 hours a month, for a total of 3200. However you slice and dice it, that's still peanuts. Don't know about you, but I wouldn't get out of bed in the morning for that kind of money.


$38400 for 960 hours of work plus an additional $35000 as a bonus. $73400 for 960 hours is an effective $76.46 per hour. I'd drag my butt out or bed for that. I worked 2080 hours for $41,600 and I was in the top pay scale.

960 hours of work is not actual 960 hours of work. You end up more than 2000 hrs when you factor in that this is just the block hours that you are talking about.
Earthbound misfit I
 
bahadir
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:58 pm

Acey559 wrote:
AAlaxfan wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
40 bucks an hour, 80 hours a month, for a total of 3200. However you slice and dice it, that's still peanuts. Don't know about you, but I wouldn't get out of bed in the morning for that kind of money.


$38400 for 960 hours of work plus an additional $35000 as a bonus. $73400 for 960 hours is an effective $76.46 per hour. I'd drag my butt out or bed for that. I worked 2080 hours for $41,600 and I was in the top pay scale.


That's grossly overly simplistic, though. We may fly 800-1000 hours a year (varies widely) but we sure as heck work more than that. I just spent 8 days on the road, about 50 hours of duty, and was paid for 19 hours because that's how much I flew. No pay for cockpit preparation, maintenance issues, preflight walk arounds, etc. I love my job and am in no way trying to make it seem like we have a rough time of things, but saying we only work 1000 hours a year isn't entirely correct.


Exactly,
both airlines mentioned don't have rigs. You only get paid by the block hour. If you had rigs, the compensation would have been a lot more representative of the work being done.
"Soft pay" is what makes the difference in a crew life, not just the hard one.
Earthbound misfit I
 
commavia
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:05 pm

Yet another reminder that the market - supply and demand - works, and always wins in the long-run. For the decade following 9/11, pay for pilots - unsurprisingly - plummeted, as there were thousands of pilots laid off and thus lots more supply of pilot labor than there was demand. Now, the pendulum has swung the other way, and airlines need more pilots then there are readily available, so pay is going up. This is happening across the industry, but the effect is just most pronounced among the regionals because the pay was so low (compared to mainline) to begin with.

In the case of Envoy, PSA and Piedmont, specifically, I think we're seeing AA's regional strategy going forward: steadily moving towards a far less 50-seat-centric regional fleet, and moving back towards the AMR model of relying mostly on wholly-owned operators for a significant portion of the regional feed.

Clearly, AA recognizes - as all airlines do - that pilot labor will be one of the most critical, scarce and differentiated economic inputs in the next 10-15 years, particularly among small jet operators. As such, it appears that AA has concluded it can best address this via the means it can control, which is to say, the airlines it owns. Boosting pay at these airlines to be fairly competitive in the various aircraft class/size pay bands among other regional operators, plus offering a no-interview flow to mainline, essentially sets up a farm team system for both AA and its regionals. It also, needless to say, now makes Envoy, PSA and Piedmont - arguably - among the more attractive regional operators for which to fly for younger pilots with longer careers ahead of them.

With the flow from its regionals, AA has basically created a B scale inside the company - but one that is far less controversial than the B scale of 1983 infamy, and that is also, ironically, likely to be enthusiastically embraced by both the A- and B-scalers on the property.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:39 pm

Acey559 wrote:
AAlaxfan wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
40 bucks an hour, 80 hours a month, for a total of 3200. However you slice and dice it, that's still peanuts. Don't know about you, but I wouldn't get out of bed in the morning for that kind of money.


$38400 for 960 hours of work plus an additional $35000 as a bonus. $73400 for 960 hours is an effective $76.46 per hour. I'd drag my butt out or bed for that. I worked 2080 hours for $41,600 and I was in the top pay scale.


That's grossly overly simplistic, though. We may fly 800-1000 hours a year (varies widely) but we sure as heck work more than that. I just spent 8 days on the road, about 50 hours of duty, and was paid for 19 hours because that's how much I flew. No pay for cockpit preparation, maintenance issues, preflight walk arounds, etc. I love my job and am in no way trying to make it seem like we have a rough time of things, but saying we only work 1000 hours a year isn't entirely correct.


I think the total compensation number is probably the best comparison (and we arguably need to add part of per diem to the hourly number). Across all industries, $75,000 with defined upward movement is pretty good for an entry level job.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:21 pm

In a somewhat related note, AA via Envoy is opening a maintenance facility at Little Rock.
 
alasizon
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:35 pm

Until one of the other bottom feeding regional carriers collapses, I can't imagine things are going to change much. GoJet, Mesa and Trans States aren't exactly in the best position right now and all three struggle to attract pilots due to their poor pay and poor contract protection. Realistically going forward, I could see Skywest, PSA, Piedmont, Envoy, Endeavor, Compass, Horizon, ExpressJet, and Republic being the surviving entities in the industry. There are enough pilots to go around at a smaller number of carriers simply because it is easier to maintain your reserves that way and also trip quality can go up and there isn't as much waste.

Good for PSA and Envoy for making themselves look more attractive to new pilots as that will certainly help AA bolster their network.
Customer Operations Manager & Tower Planner
 
bahadir
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:50 pm

alasizon wrote:
, I could see Skywest, PSA, Piedmont, Envoy, Endeavor, Compass, Horizon, ExpressJet, and Republic being the surviving entities in the industry. .


Even that is just too many.. :)
Earthbound misfit I
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:42 am

alasizon wrote:
Until one of the other bottom feeding regional carriers collapses, I can't imagine things are going to change much. GoJet, Mesa and Trans States aren't exactly in the best position right now and all three struggle to attract pilots due to their poor pay and poor contract protection. Realistically going forward, I could see Skywest, PSA, Piedmont, Envoy, Endeavor, Compass, Horizon, ExpressJet, and Republic being the surviving entities in the industry. There are enough pilots to go around at a smaller number of carriers simply because it is easier to maintain your reserves that way and also trip quality can go up and there isn't as much waste.

Good for PSA and Envoy for making themselves look more attractive to new pilots as that will certainly help AA bolster their network.


I don't think that Expressjet sticks around. With UAL committing to 100 or fewer 50 seat planes, having committed 30 to Commutair and 30 to TSA, that only leaves 40 airplanes in that segment. Couple that with the number of 50 seat seat planes they fly for Delta, and I think the writing is on the wall for ExpressJet. Beyond that, I think all 3 of the TSH companies (TSA, GoJet and Compass) aren't in great shape long term.

The big thing after this announcement by AA for their owned carriers, does it take Delta to hit back. Delta's regional has already been paying this since the beginning of the year.
From my cold, dead hands
 
alasizon
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:55 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Until one of the other bottom feeding regional carriers collapses, I can't imagine things are going to change much. GoJet, Mesa and Trans States aren't exactly in the best position right now and all three struggle to attract pilots due to their poor pay and poor contract protection. Realistically going forward, I could see Skywest, PSA, Piedmont, Envoy, Endeavor, Compass, Horizon, ExpressJet, and Republic being the surviving entities in the industry. There are enough pilots to go around at a smaller number of carriers simply because it is easier to maintain your reserves that way and also trip quality can go up and there isn't as much waste.

Good for PSA and Envoy for making themselves look more attractive to new pilots as that will certainly help AA bolster their network.


I don't think that Expressjet sticks around. With UAL committing to 100 or fewer 50 seat planes, having committed 30 to Commutair and 30 to TSA, that only leaves 40 airplanes in that segment. Couple that with the number of 50 seat seat planes they fly for Delta, and I think the writing is on the wall for ExpressJet. Beyond that, I think all 3 of the TSH companies (TSA, GoJet and Compass) aren't in great shape long term.

The big thing after this announcement by AA for their owned carriers, does it take Delta to hit back. Delta's regional has already been paying this since the beginning of the year.

Even pretending that all 40 E145s on the UA side would still be flown by EV, that would leave them those plus 69 large CRJs for DL and maybe 15-20 (currently at 46 for DL) CRJ-200s at the end of the road. That isn't a bad setup. If they can keep their overhead costs down and keep the pilots flowing, they should be able to survive.
Customer Operations Manager & Tower Planner
 
USAirKid
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:28 am

commavia wrote:
In the case of Envoy, PSA and Piedmont, specifically, I think we're seeing AA's regional strategy going forward: steadily moving towards a far less 50-seat-centric regional fleet, and moving back towards the AMR model of relying mostly on wholly-owned operators for a significant portion of the regional feed.


AFAIK Parker has commented that they like having some flying in by wholly owned regionals, and some by outside companies, so I'm not sure how much they're planning on growing the wholly owned regional fleet versus the rest of the regional flying.

I did some quick and dirty numbers based on Wikipedia:
Parent - Airplanes - Percent of total American Eagle Fleet
American Airlines Group - 318 - 51.2%
CJT Holdings - 71 - 11.4%
Mesa Air Group - 64 - 10.3%
Republic Airways Holdings - 90 - 14.5%
SkyWest, Inc. - 43 - 6.9%
Trans States Holdings - 35 - 5.6%

Yes over half of the fleet is operated by a wholly owned regional, but thats an awful lot of flying to replace, plus the outside regionals give them an external benchmark to gauge the performance of their wholly owned fleet.
 
b747400erf
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Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:48 am

commavia wrote:
Yet another reminder that the market - supply and demand - works, and always wins in the long-run.


Championing the magic of the free market after the pilot shortage caused only by government regulating 1500 hours minimum for new first officers. I can see how desperate the cries of the Austrian economists are after being proven wrong time and time again. They have to take any example of something and twist it into a win for their ideology.
 
commavia
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Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Re: AAL Rasies Regional Pay

Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:25 pm

b747400erf wrote:
Championing the magic of the free market after the pilot shortage caused only by government regulating 1500 hours minimum for new first officers. I can see how desperate the cries of the Austrian economists are after being proven wrong time and time again. They have to take any example of something and twist it into a win for their ideology.


Nobody ever said that the conditions which created a change in supply or demand were driven entirely by the market. (Indeed, they rarely are - in any market.) What I said was that in the long-run the market works. And this is, indeed, an example of that. Regardless of how or why supply and/or demand for pilot labor changed, it did. And over the long-run, the market price for said labor is adjusting accordingly.

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