masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:34 pm

Ultimate continues to grow at BKL. Traffic grew from 1102 pax last March to 1571 this March - up 42.56% with a 57% load factor. LUK-BKL remains Ultimate's biggest route. Anecdotal reports say Fed Appeals Court in Cincinnati and law firms in Cleveland are driving the traffic. It also helps that Ultimate's reliability is high - 100% completion rate on this route in March.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:10 pm

^That's great to hear. Would love to see new routes--like a real NYC (not MMU) route. With their hour-long bus from central Jersey to the city and the cost of the bus--they were not really any cheaper than DL/US/AA, AND they did not fly daily AND did not allow for a one-day trip originating in either city. In my opinion, it was doomed to fail, as CLE-NYC must be done right from the get-go. Maybe a leisure destination could get away with such a schedule.

Speaking of BKL, whatever happened to discussions about Porter to Toronto City airport? I've heard only good things about Porter. As CLE-Toronto may be well covered by AC, could they do a BKL-YUL? That's a market that was dropped by UA, but for which demand remains, and the only alternatives now make the 60-minute trip, a 4-5 hour trip with a connection somewhere....
 
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cvgComair
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:58 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Ultimate continues to grow at BKL. Traffic grew from 1102 pax last March to 1571 this March - up 42.56% with a 57% load factor. LUK-BKL remains Ultimate's biggest route. Anecdotal reports say Fed Appeals Court in Cincinnati and law firms in Cleveland are driving the traffic. It also helps that Ultimate's reliability is high - 100% completion rate on this route in March.


I found it interesting how bad BKL-MMU actually did, makes sense why it was dropped so quickly:

January - 13 passengers - 10.8% LF
February - 23 passengers - 9.6% LF

I think a flight to TEB would do better, but I am not sure what the status on using TEB is right now. They have been using TEB from LUK on an infrequent basis when there is construction at MMU. I know there was indication they would reevaluate BKL's route to MMU later in the year, but since the CEO recently announced LUK would see another new destinations later this year, I have a feeling that the reevaluation of BKL-MMU will not happen.

Overall BKL is doing pretty well for UE's routes (using March data):

LUK-CLT - 64% (5x/wk)
LUK-MMU - 61% (6x/wk)
LUK-BKL - 57% (10x/wk)
LUK-PDK - 53% (5x/wk)
LUK-MDW - 52% (9x/wk)
Next: CVG-CDG-ATH (Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, Air France A319)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:59 pm

^Last heard from Ultimate was they might try BKL-MDW and I do hope they realize their BKL-MMU effort was poorly conceived. I think their expansion problem is acquiring aircraft cheaply enough to support what must be high costs (short-haul routes and low a/c utilization). Bargain jet fuel is keeping the price of low-cycle 50 seaters higher than what Ultimate wants to pay.

On another subject, CLE had reps at Routes Europe 2017 in April. This is AFTER PIT scooped up WOW and Condor; presumably CLE shrapened their pencils and figured out what they need to offer to get a route. At least they attended the conference; that shows they aren't indifferent to the need for more international flying as was reported once by the PD.
Last edited by masseybrown on Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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CLEguy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:02 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^That's great to hear. Would love to see new routes--like a real NYC (not MMU) route. With their hour-long bus from central Jersey to the city and the cost of the bus--they were not really any cheaper than DL/US/AA, AND they did not fly daily AND did not allow for a one-day trip originating in either city. In my opinion, it was doomed to fail, as CLE-NYC must be done right from the get-go. Maybe a leisure destination could get away with such a schedule.

Speaking of BKL, whatever happened to discussions about Porter to Toronto City airport? I've heard only good things about Porter. As CLE-Toronto may be well covered by AC, could they do a BKL-YUL? That's a market that was dropped by UA, but for which demand remains, and the only alternatives now make the 60-minute trip, a 4-5 hour trip with a connection somewhere....


Agreed about missing the CLE-YUL nonstop. I really wish AC would start that route, at least once daily to connect to European flights. I'm flying CLE-YUL Labo(u)r Day weekend and have to connect in YYZ, adding much extra time. I generally like AC, but HATE the AC Express transboder gates at YYZ. If people ever complain about the ambiance, condition or aesthetics of CLE, just try the upper F gates at YYZ for an utterly embarrassing, Third World experience. What a dump! I certainly hope these gates will be replaced some day.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:05 pm

CLEguy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
Speaking of BKL, whatever happened to discussions about Porter to Toronto City airport? I've heard only good things about Porter. As CLE-Toronto may be well covered by AC, could they do a BKL-YUL?


Agreed about missing the CLE-YUL nonstop. I really wish AC would start that route, at least once daily to connect to European flights. I'm flying CLE-YUL Labo(u)r Day weekend and have to connect in YYZ, adding much extra time. I generally like AC, but HATE the AC Express transboder gates at YYZ. If people ever complain about the ambiance, condition or aesthetics of CLE, just try the upper F gates at YYZ for an utterly embarrassing, Third World experience. What a dump! I certainly hope these gates will be replaced some day.


I once talked to an AC rep after UA pulled the CLE-YUL flights. He said CLE-YUL is about 20,000 pax/year and just isn't worth a flight. The only way CO could do 3 daily was with hub connecting traffic. I asked about CLE-YUL-Europe traffic to support the route and he said nix to that, all TATL traffic would be routed through YYZ.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:36 pm

^I just flew CLE-YUL via PHL and it was absolute hell. True, AC likes to funnel all their int'l via YYZ. Is the 20,000 from CLE to YUL or both ways? Even if both ways, that's 10,000 per direction. If offered 5x/week, that's 38 pax per fight per direction. Perfect for a CRJ. Plus, being non-stop, there will be growth. If however, it is 20,000 one-way, then that's 76 pax per flight per direction 5x/week or 55 pax per flight per direction 7x/week. Both perfect for a CRJ.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:08 pm

^Both ways. UA and AC cannot codeshare over CLE (part of the joint venture agreement terms from DoT), so there's little feed possibility on either end for AC.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:06 pm

masseybrown wrote:
^Both ways. UA and AC cannot codeshare over CLE (part of the joint venture agreement terms from DoT), so there's little feed possibility on either end for AC.


So that's 38 pax/flight/direction. Still doable....for either AC, UA, or Porter or Westjet....

Massey--can you elaborate on this?: "UA and AC cannot codeshare over CLE (part of the joint venture agreement terms from DoT)"
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:19 pm

greenair727 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
^Both ways. UA and AC cannot codeshare over CLE (part of the joint venture agreement terms from DoT), so there's little feed possibility on either end for AC.


So that's 38 pax/flight/direction. Still doable....for either AC, UA, or Porter or Westjet....

Massey--can you elaborate on this?: "UA and AC cannot codeshare over CLE (part of the joint venture agreement terms from DoT)"


I doubt AC would want to take any connecting traffic from YYZ, AC treats YYZ like DL treats ATL. Even if there is O&D to possibly support a flight, there are larger markets in more need of service to YUL before CLE (SEA/SAN/BNA/OAK/SLC/PDX all come to mind)
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:46 pm

Midwestindy wrote:

I doubt AC would want to take any connecting traffic from YYZ, AC treats YYZ like DL treats ATL. Even if there is O&D to possibly support a flight, there are larger markets in more need of service to YUL before CLE (SEA/SAN/BNA/OAK/SLC/PDX all come to mind)


Those can't be done w/a CRJ.

I can't figure why the agreement would prevent it as CLE is not a hub unless it was when it was setup but not modified yet. Either way, looks grim.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:22 pm

fun2fly wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

I doubt AC would want to take any connecting traffic from YYZ, AC treats YYZ like DL treats ATL. Even if there is O&D to possibly support a flight, there are larger markets in more need of service to YUL before CLE (SEA/SAN/BNA/OAK/SLC/PDX all come to mind)


Those can't be done w/a CRJ.

I can't figure why the agreement would prevent it as CLE is not a hub unless it was when it was setup but not modified yet. Either way, looks grim.


RJ or no RJ that isn't the point, AC has only announced one new nonstop US destination from YUL in at least the past year... AC has little to no interest in opening up YUL-mid-sized US cities, maybe in the future they might, but not right now at least and if they wanted to they could have by now. In general 38 pdew isn't sustainable (or convincing) for an airline (especially AC)to start nonstop service on a 50 seater, even with accounting for market stimulation... Like mentioned earlier the AC rep said, "CLE-YUL is about 20,000 pax/year and just isn't worth a flight"
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:25 am

^I'd actually much prefer service on Porter (or even UA) for CLE/BKL-YUL than AC----and was not pushing for AC. (I haven't flown AC since a horrible experience with them ten years ago, and would only fly them if they were the only non-stop option on a route. They are the cheapest for CLE--Europe, but I gladly pay more to fly anyone else. I just remove the "YYZ" layover option and they disappear!)
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:55 am

fun2fly wrote:
I can't figure why the agreement would prevent it as CLE is not a hub unless it was when it was setup but not modified yet. Either way, looks grim.


When the joint venture was approved, the DoT carved out a few routes because UA and AC were the only two airlines authorized to fly them; in fact UA and AC were both flying CLE-YYZ at the time. DoT was operating under the delusion that both airlines would continue to operate the route after the JV was approved; upon approval AC pulled their flights instantly and didn't resume until UA quit.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:31 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
^Both ways. UA and AC cannot codeshare over CLE (part of the joint venture agreement terms from DoT), so there's little feed possibility on either end for AC.


So that's 38 pax/flight/direction. Still doable....for either AC, UA, or Porter or Westjet....

Massey--can you elaborate on this?: "UA and AC cannot codeshare over CLE (part of the joint venture agreement terms from DoT)"


I doubt AC would want to take any connecting traffic from YYZ, AC treats YYZ like DL treats ATL. Even if there is O&D to possibly support a flight, there are larger markets in more need of service to YUL before CLE (SEA/SAN/BNA/OAK/SLC/PDX all come to mind)


Please stop with you endless city comparisons.

BNA, SLC and PDX are not larger markets. Before you drag out your metrics out in an attempt to prove me wrong...AC doesn't serve CAK at all so it's going to cover the entire Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA.

That being said, they're not going to start CLE-YUL because it's obvious AC wants almost all their international flow from US eastern cities to go through YYZ.
 
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CLEguy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:09 pm

masseybrown wrote:

When the joint venture was approved, the DoT carved out a few routes because UA and AC were the only two airlines authorized to fly them; in fact UA and AC were both flying CLE-YYZ at the time. DoT was operating under the delusion that both airlines would continue to operate the route after the JV was approved; upon approval AC pulled their flights instantly and didn't resume until UA quit.


Are you talking about YYZ? As far as I know, AC has flown CLE-YYZ continuously since 1947 (flying as TCA, of course: http://enroute.aircanada.com/en/articles/time-travel). They recently up-gauged to CRJ's, however.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:46 pm

^ Ouch. Memory dimmer than I thought. AC pulled their CRJ's and substituted DH1's by Air Georgian.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:09 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:

So that's 38 pax/flight/direction. Still doable....for either AC, UA, or Porter or Westjet....

Massey--can you elaborate on this?: "UA and AC cannot codeshare over CLE (part of the joint venture agreement terms from DoT)"


I doubt AC would want to take any connecting traffic from YYZ, AC treats YYZ like DL treats ATL. Even if there is O&D to possibly support a flight, there are larger markets in more need of service to YUL before CLE (SEA/SAN/BNA/OAK/SLC/PDX all come to mind)


Please stop with you endless city comparisons.

BNA, SLC and PDX are not larger markets. Before you drag out your metrics out in an attempt to prove me wrong...AC doesn't serve CAK at all so it's going to cover the entire Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA.

That being said, they're not going to start CLE-YUL because it's obvious AC wants almost all their international flow from US eastern cities to go through YYZ.


Not quite sure what you are on about, you basically agreed and reiterated everything I said, "I doubt AC would want to take any connecting traffic from YYZ, AC treats YYZ like DL treats ATL." I didn't compare cities I was simply giving examples to show that AC isn't interested in adding US-YUL service, and if AC was interested in expanding at YUL there are plenty of cities it could have done by now...
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:10 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:

So that's 38 pax/flight/direction. Still doable....for either AC, UA, or Porter or Westjet....

Massey--can you elaborate on this?: "UA and AC cannot codeshare over CLE (part of the joint venture agreement terms from DoT)"


I doubt AC would want to take any connecting traffic from YYZ, AC treats YYZ like DL treats ATL. Even if there is O&D to possibly support a flight, there are larger markets in more need of service to YUL before CLE (SEA/SAN/BNA/OAK/SLC/PDX all come to mind)


Please stop with you endless city comparisons.

BNA, SLC and PDX are not larger markets. Before you drag out your metrics out in an attempt to prove me wrong...AC doesn't serve CAK at all so it's going to cover the entire Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA.

That being said, they're not going to start CLE-YUL because it's obvious AC wants almost all their international flow from US eastern cities to go through YYZ.


Not quite sure what you are on about, you basically agreed and reiterated everything I said, "I doubt AC would want to take any connecting traffic from YYZ, AC treats YYZ like DL treats ATL." I didn't compare cities I was simply giving examples to show that AC isn't interested in adding US-YUL service, and if AC was interested in expanding at YUL there are plenty of cities it could have done by now...
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:07 pm

Not sure if WN has fully loaded their Jan-Mar schedule, but there's a new Saturday/Sunday CLE-RSW flight added. Interesting destination choice for Southwest's only nonstop Florida route from CLE.
 
VetteDude
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:27 pm

Orlando is crowded seasonally, with Allegiant, Frontier, Spirit, United, and Delta all flying it! RSW is a little less busy of a route
 
lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:44 pm

VetteDude wrote:
Orlando is crowded seasonally, with Allegiant, Frontier, Spirit, United, and Delta all flying it! RSW is a little less busy of a route


Fort Myers also has daily United, Frontier, and Spirit in the spring. Allegiant also serves nearby Punta Gorda.

RSW is an interesting choice because it offers zero Caribbean connections, unlike TPA, MCO, or FLL for WN.

It's nice to see WN slowly adding routes to CLE each extension. This WN addition means that all 8 domestic carrriers at CLE will offer a nonstop flight to Florida: American, Delta, United, Southwest, Frontier, JetBlue, Allegiant, and Spirit.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:02 pm

lakeeffect wrote:
VetteDude wrote:
It's nice to see WN slowly adding routes to CLE each extension.


It is. I'm waiting for them to add something to New England - BDL or PVD. That would be a very positive signal.
 
VetteDude
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:12 pm

I'd like to see Southwest add something like SEA or OAK. And I'm biased towards wanted an MSY direct flight that isn't on Spirit, althought connecting through BNA on WN to get there is painless.

Note sure if we'd ever see BDL on WN. Maybe they could shake Delta's CR9 off the route, but I can't see a 7M7 or 7M8 on the route.
 
lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:41 pm

The morning WN CLE-MKE departure continues on to PHX with this extension. The nonstop CLE-PHX is a mid day departure. That should help prop up the new nonstop CLE-MKE route through the dead of winter. There will likely be a lot of through pax on that flight.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:54 pm

VetteDude wrote:
Note sure if we'd ever see BDL on WN. Maybe they could shake Delta's CR9 off the route, but I can't see a 7M7 or 7M8 on the route.


My guess is CLE-BDL exists on DL because United Technologies wants the service. If somebody else flew the route, DL would probably go away happily. Currently everything WN flies in CLE is O&D or a feeder for one of their hubs; the significance of BDL or PVD would be feeding onward flights from CLE.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:12 pm

What about CLE-MCI? I think the route has a chance because it would offer some connection options even if WN said they don't want MCI to be a connection city due to the facility there. They would own the route right out of the gate as well.
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:29 pm

If I counted right today, AA now has 8 or 9 gates at CLE in Concourse C. Even opened C2 again. What do they have planned to use them or did CLE just give them a package deal?

We all complain about CLE, but there are a lot of reasons to love no wait to take off or land almost every time.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:52 pm

^How many gates does DL have? I'd still rather see growth from AA or DL (and not more to their hubs) to cities we're missing for DAILY service, like MCI, ABQ, SAT, AUS, etc., not to mention int'l service.
 
jplatts
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:36 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^How many gates does DL have? I'd still rather see growth from AA or DL (and not more to their hubs) to cities we're missing for DAILY service, like MCI, ABQ, SAT, AUS, etc., not to mention int'l service.


Are MCI, ABQ, SAT, and AUS big enough markets for Southwest to serve nonstop from CLE, or are these markets better served by American Eagle or Delta Connection service? Southwest is the dominant carrier in MCI, ABQ, SAT, and AUS. In addition, Southwest might possibly become the dominant carrier at CLE if it adds additional flights out of CLE.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:54 pm

As has been discussed before I'm afraid the days of cle getting service to secondary markets are behind us. MAYBE MCI could be added but outside of that I'm sure not holding my breath. WN is really a hub and spoke carrier these days. Other than DAL and HOU and MCO, CLE is pretty well covered with WN. Admittedly their new flights to MKE are a bit of a head scratcher. Delta connection has a modest once a day commitment to RDU and BDL (PIT IND CMH get more attention from DL than CLE) and I'm just not seeing AA eagle serve non hub routes. My opinion: I think it's equally likely that UA draws down LGA DCA BOS in next 24 months as it is we see some of the markets mentioned here. UA covers NY and D.C. out of their hub airports.
 
flight152
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:11 pm

ncflyer wrote:
My opinion: I think it's equally likely that UA draws down LGA DCA BOS in next 24 months as it is we see some of the markets mentioned here. UA covers NY and D.C. out of their hub airports.

This has been speculated for years but hasn't happened. In fact since the hub draw down frequencies to DCA has increased and BOS gained a fourth frequency over the summer. Not sure why everyone likes to hate on UA.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:26 pm

jplatts wrote:
^How many gates does DL have? I'd still rather see growth from AA or DL (and not more to their hubs) to cities we're missing for DAILY service, like MCI, ABQ, SAT, AUS, etc., not to mention int'l service.


AA and DL (and UA with the exception of CLE) aren't into the whole "offering p2p nonstop flights" business (with the exception of CUN) anymore. In the early 2010s and 2000s those kinds of routes were operated but for the most part DL and AA have not been adding p2p nonstop flights. The only options for non-hub cities to get nonstops to MCI/SAT/AUS/ABQ is WN, G4, F9, J1, sometimes B6, and occasionally AS if you are on the west coast.
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
jplatts
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:38 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
jplatts wrote:
^How many gates does DL have? I'd still rather see growth from AA or DL (and not more to their hubs) to cities we're missing for DAILY service, like MCI, ABQ, SAT, AUS, etc., not to mention int'l service.


AA and DL (and UA with the exception of CLE) aren't into the whole "offering p2p nonstop flights" business (with the exception of CUN) anymore. In the early 2010s and 2000s those kinds of routes were operated but for the most part DL and AA have not been adding p2p nonstop flights. The only options for non-hub cities to get nonstops to MCI/SAT/AUS/ABQ is WN, G4, F9, J1, sometimes B6, and occasionally AS if you are on the west coast.


Delta does do some point-to-point routes out of its RDU focus city and out of MCO to some of its non-hub destinations, but does normally not do point-to-point routes to non-hub cities out of airports other than RDU or MCO.
 
RampBoss
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:52 pm

fun2fly wrote:
If I counted right today, AA now has 8 or 9 gates at CLE in Concourse C. Even opened C2 again. What do they have planned to use them or did CLE just give them a package deal?

We all complain about CLE, but there are a lot of reasons to love no wait to take off or land almost every time.


Agreed. A friend and AA employee told me that AA in CLE would transition to 738's and has plans to add more flights and destinations. Hope it's all true. The writing seems to be on the wall.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:30 am

^LHR codeshare with BA?
 
fun2fly
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Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:16 am

RampBoss wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
If I counted right today, AA now has 8 or 9 gates at CLE in Concourse C. Even opened C2 again. What do they have planned to use them or did CLE just give them a package deal?


Agreed. A friend and AA employee told me that AA in CLE would transition to 738's and has plans to add more flights and destinations. Hope it's all true. The writing seems to be on the wall.


There has to be something...8 or 9 gates for 33 flights (7/10/17)

7x ORD
4xDFW
7xCLT
3xMIA
3xLGA
1xJFK
3xDCA
5xPHL
 
ncflyer
Posts: 607
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:46 am

United down to 3 flights to Boston this summer. uA Loads to DCA are paltry. For instance tomorrow peak travel season on a Friday the 9am flight shows 10 people on the seat map and only one of five flight looks half full. In contrast UA is running a 739 From Dulles to cleveland now and loads look quite good so far. I think they are positioning for the cle to sfo evening flight.
 
flight152
Posts: 3311
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:57 am

ncflyer wrote:
United down to 3 flights to Boston this summer. uA Loads to DCA are paltry. For instance tomorrow peak travel season on a Friday the 9am flight shows 10 people on the seat map and only one of five flight looks half full. In contrast UA is running a 739 From Dulles to cleveland now and loads look quite good so far. I think they are positioning for the cle to sfo evening flight.

First, there are four daily flights in July, check the time tables. Second, you really should know better then judging the success of a route by a seat map on a single day; if they were losing money they probably would have trimmed the schedule by now. All 3 Boston flights went out today without a single open seat (and zero non revs) but somehow you don't really mention that.
 
swacle
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:41 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:31 am

fun2fly wrote:
RampBoss wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
If I counted right today, AA now has 8 or 9 gates at CLE in Concourse C. Even opened C2 again. What do they have planned to use them or did CLE just give them a package deal?


Agreed. A friend and AA employee told me that AA in CLE would transition to 738's and has plans to add more flights and destinations. Hope it's all true. The writing seems to be on the wall.


There has to be something...8 or 9 gates for 33 flights (7/10/17)

7x ORD
4xDFW
7xCLT
3xMIA
3xLGA
1xJFK
3xDCA
5xPHL


AA will only be using C3, 5, 7, 9, 11 once their jetways are hung and refurbished. They are using A1, 3 and C2, 4, 8, and 10 (now common use gates) during the transition.
Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
 
michman
Posts: 790
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:51 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:15 am

jplatts wrote:
Delta does do some point-to-point routes out of its RDU focus city and out of MCO to some of its non-hub destinations, but does normally not do point-to-point routes to non-hub cities out of airports other than RDU or MCO.


DL has also been recently building up p2p flying out of the BOS focus city.

http://news.delta.com/delta-builds-posi ... ier-boston

I wouldn't rule out BOS-CLE flights on DL at some point.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1130
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:46 am

swacle wrote:
AA will only be using C3, 5, 7, 9, 11 once their jetways are hung and refurbished. They are using A1, 3 and C2, 4, 8, and 10 (now common use gates) during the transition.


OK, it did not look like that when I was there. New carpet like the AA carpet, AA branding, etc. If it's only 5, then they won't be growing. The gates will then be ready for someone else.

If that musical gate shuffle is real that you outlined, I really scratch my head about this move where they certainly could have waited until the jet bridges were installed and made it simple. Not sure who came up with such a plan.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 1520
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:04 am

michman wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Delta does do some point-to-point routes out of its RDU focus city and out of MCO to some of its non-hub destinations, but does normally not do point-to-point routes to non-hub cities out of airports other than RDU or MCO.


DL has also been recently building up p2p flying out of the BOS focus city.

http://news.delta.com/delta-builds-posi ... ier-boston

I wouldn't rule out BOS-CLE flights on DL at some point.


BOS is a hub, not a focus city
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines
http://news.delta.com/global-network
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
swacle
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:41 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:56 pm

fun2fly wrote:
swacle wrote:
AA will only be using C3, 5, 7, 9, 11 once their jetways are hung and refurbished. They are using A1, 3 and C2, 4, 8, and 10 (now common use gates) during the transition.


OK, it did not look like that when I was there. New carpet like the AA carpet, AA branding, etc. If it's only 5, then they won't be growing. The gates will then be ready for someone else.

If that musical gate shuffle is real that you outlined, I really scratch my head about this move where they certainly could have waited until the jet bridges were installed and made it simple. Not sure who came up with such a plan.


I agree, I was a little stunned myself. All I can think is they were behind schedule with the move and their A Gates had already been promised to F9 for their summer schedule. F9 wasted no time herrinf their aigns up on A8 amd A10 once AA vacated the gates.
Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
 
fsafsx
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:02 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:48 pm

F9 usually does twice daily CLE MCO, but they added a second DTW MCO flight, go figure CLE gets ripped off by DTW. Can B6 add MCO as well as WN to fill in the gaps?
 
ncflyer
Posts: 607
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:54 pm

flight152 wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
United down to 3 flights to Boston this summer. uA Loads to DCA are paltry. For instance tomorrow peak travel season on a Friday the 9am flight shows 10 people on the seat map and only one of five flight looks half full. In contrast UA is running a 739 From Dulles to cleveland now and loads look quite good so far. I think they are positioning for the cle to sfo evening flight.

First, there are four daily flights in July, check the time tables. Second, you really should know better then judging the success of a route by a seat map on a single day; if they were losing money they probably would have trimmed the schedule by now. All 3 Boston flights went out today without a single open seat (and zero non revs) but somehow you don't really mention that.


Well mea culpa on UA to a Boston. If they are up to 4 in July well that frequency is for more limited duration than it's been in summers past. I wish I had had data on UA loads out of CLE by market. I can only look at seat maps. To me their loads look solid especially to Den and Ord and west coast and FL. DCA is a mystery to me why UA maintains a 5x frequency every weekday. Blah blah blah I know loads don't equal profitability but there are some very empty planes on that route especially mid week. I have no clue on AAs success on the route.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2697
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:47 pm

fun2fly wrote:
If I counted right today, AA now has 8 or 9 gates at CLE in Concourse C. Even opened C2 again. What do they have planned to use them or did CLE just give them a package deal?

We all complain about CLE, but there are a lot of reasons to love no wait to take off or land almost every time.


It is weird that AA has so many gates at CLE. Despite that, when I arrived from CLT on Tuesday night, my CR9 arrived at A3 (which also still has a full AA set up).

I suspect some of these gates are actually common-use but CLE let AA put equipment there since they are the only one's using them (even if is only once per day during the morning rush)...
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2697
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:50 pm

swacle wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
RampBoss wrote:

Agreed. A friend and AA employee told me that AA in CLE would transition to 738's and has plans to add more flights and destinations. Hope it's all true. The writing seems to be on the wall.


There has to be something...8 or 9 gates for 33 flights (7/10/17)

7x ORD
4xDFW
7xCLT
3xMIA
3xLGA
1xJFK
3xDCA
5xPHL


AA will only be using C3, 5, 7, 9, 11 once their jetways are hung and refurbished. They are using A1, 3 and C2, 4, 8, and 10 (now common use gates) during the transition.


They are using C14 as well (my flight to ORD used it on Wednesday evening)...
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4873
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:30 pm

CLE has announced that AA leased C3,5,7,9,and 11. The common-use gates C2,4,8,10, and 14, however, appear to be almost identical with the AA gates except for the lack of a permanent logo, which would make an expansion very easy for AA. I think C4 is unofficially JetBlue's overflow gate, but the rest are sitting there. The move by AA before the gates were ready may have been related to work going on in the bag rooms, completion of which was delayed from a planned spring date. Then the bag room was ready and the gates weren't. Annoying for AA but not a crisis.

I think AA is weighing its options and staying flexible in CLE. If expansion comes up a winner, the space is ready and waiting.
 
plinth857
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:37 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:44 am

ncflyer wrote:
United down to 3 flights to Boston this summer. uA Loads to DCA are paltry. For instance tomorrow peak travel season on a Friday the 9am flight shows 10 people on the seat map and only one of five flight looks half full. In contrast UA is running a 739 From Dulles to cleveland now and loads look quite good so far. I think they are positioning for the cle to sfo evening flight.


I flew this route in April and there were 7 empty seats on the flight out of 50. Maybe not every flight is full, but they keep flying it for a reason, even if it is for repositioning. Plus, they used to have that government contract (UA still has the IAD/CLE contract, but AA now has the DCA/CLE one) and they could always get it again.

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