Wow that would be nice Massey, nice to dream about, it just seems like WN is so saturated when it comes to 100 flight cities, why would they need to add the overhead of another connection point that can't support itself on O/D alone-- it would be totally redundant to STL, MCI, BNA, BWI, MDW, etc. Maybe this surprising addition of MKE will be a nice little test case.

I do feel like if UA is going to be totally stagnant for long enough, which they've been, then they will shrink. Grow or go, as the business saying goes. . . .

ncflyer wrote:

I do feel like if UA is going to be totally stagnant for long enough, which they've been, then they will shrink. Grow or go, as the business saying goes. . . .

They already have shrunk considerably since June 2014 when the number of flights after dehubbing was around 72 or so. I picked a random day in July (7/17/17) and only counted 49 nonstop flights on UA. Of course, this total does not include a number of seasonal flights (FLL, RSW, CUN, SJU), but even adding those in gives you a total of 50-53 flights a day, a further 28% (or so) decrease since 2014.

ncflyer wrote:

Wow that would be nice Massey, nice to dream about ...

It's plausible, though, and not just my dream. A poster on "the other board" just reported WN will begin using gate B3 in November to accommodate 7 RONs.

CLEguy wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

I do feel like if UA is going to be totally stagnant for long enough, which they've been, then they will shrink. Grow or go, as the business saying goes. . . .

They already have shrunk considerably since June 2014 when the number of flights after dehubbing was around 72 or so. I picked a random day in July (7/17/17) and only counted 49 nonstop flights on UA. Of course, this total does not include a number of seasonal flights (FLL, RSW, CUN, SJU), but even adding those in gives you a total of 50-53 flights a day, a further 28% (or so) decrease since 2014.

I think you need to also look at seat count. It may not be as drastic. A lot of ERJ flying replaced by mainline or larger jets like ORD going from 14 or so flights per day to 9 or 10. I do agree that they are probably down double digits as they have ditched LAS, PHX, STL, IAH down gauge, etc., but probably only down in the teens vs. 28%.

masseybrown wrote:

A poster on "the other board" just reported WN will begin using gate B3 in November to accommodate 7 RONs.

Ha! Perhaps start stacking the DL RONs there a few birds high?

Nextant Aerospace has settled for half a loaf in its quest for a larger aircraft to remanufacture. They are partnering with Rockwell-Collins as exclusive agent to install a new avionics suite in Bombardier Challenger 604's. All work will be done at KCGF.

http://www.nextantaerospace.com/corpora ... ogram.html

I saw a similar analysis for CMH on the Ohio thread, so I thought I'd do the same for CLE. Here are the total departures by airline at CLE on a random summer day of Monday, July 17, 2017. Sorry for the lousy formatting.

July 17, 2017 CLE Departures

AA
CLT 7
ORD 7
DFW 4
MIA 3
JFK 1
LGA 3
PHL 6
DCA 3
34

AC
YYZ 4

DL
ATL 8
DTW 5
BDL 1
MSP 4
JFK 3
LGA 6
RDU 1
28

WN
BWI 4
MDW 7
MKE (2)-Starts in November
STL 2
BNA 3
ATL 2
DEN 1
LAS 1
PHX 1
21

F9 (Cities with less than daily service indicated)
ATL 0
CLT 1
DEN 1
IAH 1
LAX 0
MSP 0
PDX 0
RDU 0
SAN 1
SFO 1
SEA 1
MCO 1
RSW 1
TPS 1
PHX 0
CUN 1
10

NK
ATL 1
BOS 1
DFW 1
FLL 1
LAS 1
LAX 1
MYR 1
MSY 1
MCO1
9

G4 (Cities with less than daily service indicated)
AUS 1
VPS 1
FLL 0
PGD 0
JAX 0
MYR 1
SFB 0
AZA 0
MSY 1
SAV 0
PIE 1
5

UA (Cities with seasonal service indicated)
BOS 4
CUN 0
ORD 9
DEN 3
FLL 0
RSW 0
IAH 5
LAX 2
MKE 2
LGA 6
EWR 6
MCO 1
SFO 2
SJU 0
DCA 5
IAD 4
49

TOTAL DEPARTURES: 160

I noticed that the old US Airways gates at the end of the A concourse already have Frontier branding installed now that American has moved to C concourse. Frontier at times has 5 planes on the ground at CLE, so I could see the need for more gates.

lakeeffect wrote:

I noticed that the old US Airways gates at the end of the A concourse already have Frontier branding installed now that American has moved to C concourse. Frontier at times has 5 planes on the ground at CLE, so I could see the need for more gates.

I saw that, too, at least A8 and A10 (not sure about A12); both also have lines marked for A320/A321 only. I don't think they've actually started using those gates yet. A1 & A3 have full AA branding still and are occasionally used by AA.

Not that it's a real surprise, I've never taken the time to add it up, but 160 departures. Let's assume airport is open 14 hours 6am to 8 pm. Barely over 10 an hour. Sheesh sure glad the airport invested in parallel runways a few years back. . .

CLE posted their March traffic numbers. Domestic was up over 40,000 pax from last March or just under 6%. International was down almost 6,000 or about 23%. Overall, March was up 4.89%.

International drop is a result of CUN going less than daily on Frontier. Allegiant surely helped the domestic boost, but there must have been decent increases on other carriers as well.

International has to also be driven by the crazy crazy international fares from CLE. They have really been bad lately. So much more cost effective to drive to PIT or even YYZ--- or to buy a separate ticket from the coast, BOS/IAD/JFK to Europe and a separate ticket to get to those cities from CLE.

Everyone I know in CLE who travels internationally and is price sensitive has figured this out. Not that it explains March, but in July, CAK is $300 to $400 cheaper than CLE to CDG on Delta, and PIT is more like $500 to $600 cheaper, this is not chump change. I suspect the international numbers out of CLE will continue to disappoint, even outside of CUN travel season.

It is good to see though nice year over year improvement in March after disappointing Jan/Feb. I'm sure timing of easter, number of weekends, number of Monday/Friday's, can cause month to month fluctuation all else being equal.

ncflyer wrote:

International has to also be driven by the crazy crazy international fares from CLE. They have really been bad lately. So much more cost effective to drive to PIT or even YYZ--- or to buy a separate ticket from the coast, BOS/IAD/JFK to Europe and a separate ticket to get to those cities from CLE.

Those international figures are ONLY pax who board a plane in CLE and land in another country. In other words, that statistic is only for passengers in CLE that use AC to YYZ, UA to CUN, F9 to CUN, and charter Caribbean flights. Someone who buys a ticket that's CLE-EWR-LHR is not international because they flew domestic out of CLE.

But yes, the leakage for international bound pax from CLE has to be ridiculous. Unless WOW or Icelandair start CLE service, that won't change anytime soon.

lakeeffect wrote:

But yes, the leakage for international bound pax from CLE has to be ridiculous. Unless WOW or Icelandair start CLE service, that won't change anytime soon.

Looking up a potential trip, I noticed that the cheapest September trip to YYZ and back from CLE is $647. From PIT it's $234. CLE/BKL needs to attract Porter service.

As I drove past CLE this morning I noticed a Miami Air International 737 at one of the gates in terminal A. I checked FlightAware and it appears it is heading to OAK. I am thinking it must have something to do with The NBA Finals but I know the Cavs Team flew into SFO a few days ago. Could it be a media charter? It is operating under BSK 369.

Dan Gilbert and many NBA owners are well known to charter planes for their employees to see away games. This would be my guess. Media would have wanted to arrive yesterday for all the press conferences.

Gilbert chartered Miami Air last year to take employees to the games so it's a safe bet that was the purpose of this charter as well.

swacle wrote:

Gilbert chartered Miami Air last year to take employees to the games so it's a safe bet that was the purpose of this charter as well.

Also could have been the A's going back to Oakland? More likely Gilbert. Go Cavs.

fun2fly wrote:

swacle wrote:

Gilbert chartered Miami Air last year to take employees to the games so it's a safe bet that was the purpose of this charter as well.

Also could have been the A's going back to Oakland? More likely Gilbert. Go Cavs.

Good point. Did some research and it looks like the A's left from BKL on N801DM (Mark Cubans plane?), into OAK at about 4:50pm. So I think Miami Air was Cavs employees!

I noticed that United will offer a mainline frequency on IAD-CLE beginning this Thursday and continuing through early September. When was the last time IAD-CLE had regularly scheduled mainline service? I believe IAD is currently UA's shortest route from CLE.

lakeeffect wrote:

I noticed that United will offer a mainline frequency on IAD-CLE beginning this Thursday and continuing through early September. When was the last time IAD-CLE had regularly scheduled mainline service? I believe IAD is currently UA's shortest route from CLE.

Wow, that's news. I can't remember a time that it has ever been mainline. What flight(s)?

Will Southwest add nonstop service from DAL to CLE? CLE is one of the largest markets from Dallas that is still without nonstop service from DAL, and AA is now the only airline to operate DFW-CLE nonstop service year-round.

fun2fly wrote:

lakeeffect wrote:

I noticed that United will offer a mainline frequency on IAD-CLE beginning this Thursday and continuing through early September. When was the last time IAD-CLE had regularly scheduled mainline service? I believe IAD is currently UA's shortest route from CLE.

Wow, that's news. I can't remember a time that it has ever been mainline. What flight(s)?

It's UA flight 2026 and leaves IAD around 5pm and arrives CLE around 6:30pm. Operates June 8th through September 5th.

lakeeffect wrote:

fun2fly wrote:

lakeeffect wrote:

I noticed that United will offer a mainline frequency on IAD-CLE beginning this Thursday and continuing through early September. When was the last time IAD-CLE had regularly scheduled mainline service? I believe IAD is currently UA's shortest route from CLE.

5

Wow, that's news. I can't remember a time that it has ever been mainline. What flight(s)?

It's UA flight 2026 and leaves IAD around 5pm and arrives CLE around 6:30pm. Operates June 8th through September 5th.

Interesting that there's only mainline IAD-CLE, and not CLE-IAD, which does, however, have 1 ERJ-175 flight.

lakeeffect wrote:

I noticed that United will offer a mainline frequency on IAD-CLE beginning this Thursday and continuing through early September. When was the last time IAD-CLE had regularly scheduled mainline service? I believe IAD is currently UA's shortest route from CLE.

The route started (in the 80's?) with 4 mainline per day but quickly became RJ's. CLE-EWR/IAH/DEN are similarly unbalanced this summer.

The top markets that Southwest Airlines does not serve nonstop out of CLE are LGA, LAX, FLL, BOS, TPA, DAL, RSW, OAK, HOU, and CLT.

Southwest might be able to add LGA-CLE nonstop service if United discontinues LGA-CLE nonstop service, but Southwest doesn't currently have room to do LGA-CLE nonstop. CLE and ORD are also the two Midwestern cities that have nonstop service out of LGA on all 3 of the big 3 legacy carriers (AA, DL, and UA), and the only two cities that will be served nonstop on all 3 of the US3 out of LGA after UA discontinues LGA-RDU nonstop service on Wednesday.

Southwest has a significant presence at LAX, OAK, DAL, and HOU, and these four destinations are some of the largest markets that Southwest does not yet serve nonstop from CLE. CLE is one of the largest markets out of Dallas that is not served nonstop from DAL and one of the largest markets out of Houston that is not served nonstop from HOU. There are markets out of LAX bigger than the LAX-CLE market that Southwest does not serve nonstop from LAX, but CLE is the largest Ohio market out of LAX that Southwest does not serve nonstop from LAX. There are also markets out of OAK larger than the OAK-CLE market that Southwest does not serve nonstop from OAK, but CLE is the largest Ohio market out of OAK that Southwest does not serve nonstop from OAK.

Southwest has opportunities to expand from CLE to DAL, HOU, LAX, and OAK. Will Southwest end up adding nonstops from CLE to any of these four destinations?

B6 will be switching the CLE-FLL route to a morning departure to Florida and late evening return to CLE beginning late October. This should allow for more connecting opportunities in FLL versus the current early evening departure to FLL. This also means that JetBlue will RON two aircraft at CLE now.

Come September AA has scheduled 3 738's and one MD80 on CLE-DFW. I never much liked riding in the back of an MD80, but it's another milestone seeing them go.

masseybrown wrote:

Come September AA has scheduled 3 738's and one MD80 on CLE-DFW. I never much liked riding in the back of an MD80, but it's another milestone seeing them go.

I saw that... I fly this route frequently, and I will be a little sad to see them go. I often sit up front of these, and it is nice and quite up there at least. It's a change from the 319's they usually fly, although perhaps they want just a bit more capacity. All of the flights that I have been on recently have been 90% full or greater. (that's why I feel WN could do well flying CLE-->DAL once a day at least)

masseybrown wrote:

Come September AA has scheduled 3 738's and one MD80 on CLE-DFW. I never much liked riding in the back of an MD80, but it's another milestone seeing them go.

Pretty decent capacity increase at 160 seats on the 738 vs. 140 on the MD80 and 128 on the A319!

A question for the CLE/WN aficionados: I'll be flying from PHX to CLE on Sept 8. Is there any chance that this route will be operated by the Max8 by then?

PhilInBRN wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

Come September AA has scheduled 3 738's and one MD80 on CLE-DFW. I never much liked riding in the back of an MD80, but it's another milestone seeing them go.

Pretty decent capacity increase at 160 seats on the 738 vs. 140 on the MD80 and 128 on the A319!

A question for the CLE/WN aficionados: I'll be flying from PHX to CLE on Sept 8. Is there any chance that this route will be operated by the Max8 by then?

The Max 8 goes into service for WN on October 1st, so unfortunately no. The first Max is scheduled into CLE on a weekend MDW turn in November, then a daily mid morning STL/MDW turn in December.

Edit: it's a STL/BWI turn in December.

jplatts wrote:

The top markets that Southwest Airlines does not serve nonstop out of CLE are LGA, LAX, FLL, BOS, TPA, DAL, RSW, OAK, HOU, and CLT.

Southwest might be able to add LGA-CLE nonstop service if United discontinues LGA-CLE nonstop service, but Southwest doesn't currently have room to do LGA-CLE nonstop. CLE and ORD are also the two Midwestern cities that have nonstop service out of LGA on all 3 of the big 3 legacy carriers (AA, DL, and UA), and the only two cities that will be served nonstop on all 3 of the US3 out of LGA after UA discontinues LGA-RDU nonstop service on Wednesday.

Southwest has a significant presence at LAX, OAK, DAL, and HOU, and these four destinations are some of the largest markets that Southwest does not yet serve nonstop from CLE. CLE is one of the largest markets out of Dallas that is not served nonstop from DAL and one of the largest markets out of Houston that is not served nonstop from HOU. There are markets out of LAX bigger than the LAX-CLE market that Southwest does not serve nonstop from LAX, but CLE is the largest Ohio market out of LAX that Southwest does not serve nonstop from LAX. There are also markets out of OAK larger than the OAK-CLE market that Southwest does not serve nonstop from OAK, but CLE is the largest Ohio market out of OAK that Southwest does not serve nonstop from OAK.

Southwest has opportunities to expand from CLE to DAL, HOU, LAX, and OAK. Will Southwest end up adding nonstops from CLE to any of these four destinations?

I don't see WN going after UA at LAX/SFO, especially with ULCCs operating on each route as well. The best candidate has to be DAL just because of the lack of competition to Dallas. My outlier idea is starting MCI. If WN is willing to go after UA on CLE-MKE it makes me wonder what they have in store for the future. They clearly are doing something different at CLE vs. other surrounding markets.

izbtmnhd wrote:

jplatts wrote:

The top markets that Southwest Airlines does not serve nonstop out of CLE are LGA, LAX, FLL, BOS, TPA, DAL, RSW, OAK, HOU, and CLT.

Southwest might be able to add LGA-CLE nonstop service if United discontinues LGA-CLE nonstop service, but Southwest doesn't currently have room to do LGA-CLE nonstop. CLE and ORD are also the two Midwestern cities that have nonstop service out of LGA on all 3 of the big 3 legacy carriers (AA, DL, and UA), and the only two cities that will be served nonstop on all 3 of the US3 out of LGA after UA discontinues LGA-RDU nonstop service on Wednesday.

Southwest has a significant presence at LAX, OAK, DAL, and HOU, and these four destinations are some of the largest markets that Southwest does not yet serve nonstop from CLE. CLE is one of the largest markets out of Dallas that is not served nonstop from DAL and one of the largest markets out of Houston that is not served nonstop from HOU. There are markets out of LAX bigger than the LAX-CLE market that Southwest does not serve nonstop from LAX, but CLE is the largest Ohio market out of LAX that Southwest does not serve nonstop from LAX. There are also markets out of OAK larger than the OAK-CLE market that Southwest does not serve nonstop from OAK, but CLE is the largest Ohio market out of OAK that Southwest does not serve nonstop from OAK.

Southwest has opportunities to expand from CLE to DAL, HOU, LAX, and OAK. Will Southwest end up adding nonstops from CLE to any of these four destinations?

I don't see WN going after UA at LAX/SFO, especially with ULCCs operating on each route as well. The best candidate has to be DAL just because of the lack of competition to Dallas. My outlier idea is starting MCI. If WN is willing to go after UA on CLE-MKE it makes me wonder what they have in store for the future. They clearly are doing something different at CLE vs. other surrounding markets.

There are only 2 airlines (UA and F9) that have nonstops between CLE and the San Francisco Bay Area, and the Frontier nonstop between CLE and SFO is only operated seasonally. In addition, CLE also does not see any nonstop service to OAK, where Southwest Airlines has a significant presence and where Southwest Airlines is the dominant carrier. On the other hand, CLE sees daily year-round nonstop service to LAX on both United and Spirit in addition to seasonal nonstop service on Frontier. There is less competition on CLE-SFO than there is on CLE-LAX since there is one fewer airline on the CLE-SFO route and UA does 1 additional daily nonstop to SFO out of CLE. In addition, UA only does two daily nonstops to SFO and 1 daily nonstop to LAX out of CLE. Furthermore, Southwest Airlines has also been in Cleveland for over 25 years. Is there really demand for additional nonstops to California out of CLE? If so, Southwest might be able to add nonstop service out of CLE to OAK, SAN, and LAX.

izbtmnhd wrote:

I don't see WN going after UA at LAX/SFO, especially with ULCCs operating on each route as well. The best candidate has to be DAL just because of the lack of competition to Dallas. My outlier idea is starting MCI. If WN is willing to go after UA on CLE-MKE it makes me wonder what they have in store for the future. They clearly are doing something different at CLE vs. other surrounding markets.

DAL, yes; but HOU is equally a contender. UA is again cutting capacity (all E-175s) in September on CLE-IAH. The market is less business traffic than previously, but it's holding up pretty well in overall numbers - making UA less interested, but maybe appealing more to WN. With no service in either market, CLE/CAK-HOU is 93 pax/day; CLE/CAK-DAL is 74 per Q4,'16 DoT numbers..

I do believe F9 service to LAX and SFO perhaps SAN as well is not officially seasonal, its EOS as of now. With F9 that could change.

F9 is dropping CLE-CLT on August 12. I thought this route had a decent chance of survival but AA was often price matching below F9 fares. Even UA and DL were offering sub $60 CLE-connection-CLT fares.

So it seems that the legacy carriers are willing to drop their fares to kill off the ULCC competition in select markets. DL has been uninterested in F9's CLE-MSP service.

Flying MSP-CLE-MSP on F9 this weekend looks like a high LF from seat maps, we shall see. $59 OW with seat upgrade VS $350 on DL.

UA going to 9x mainline aircraft to ORD with the Sept schedule change.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/ ... conference

This is a good idea and would get the city the right kind of international exposure. Hope they win it.

masseybrown wrote:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20170608/NEWS/170609834/cleveland-seeks-to-host-air-service-speed-dating-conference

This is a good idea and would get the city the right kind of international exposure. Hope they win it.

Knowing Cleveland politics, they'll host it - but no one will attend.

chrisjake wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20170608/NEWS/170609834/cleveland-seeks-to-host-air-service-speed-dating-conference

This is a good idea and would get the city the right kind of international exposure. Hope they win it.

Knowing Cleveland politics, they'll host it - but no one will attend.

CLE will host it per the ACI-N. America website: http://aci-na.org/event/2018-jumpstart- ... conference

"ACI-NA’s JumpStart® Air Service Development Conference is North America’s premier air service development conference. The 2018 JumpStart Conference will take place in Cleveland, OH from June 4-6, 2018 at the Renaissance Cleveland. The event will begin with a full day of educational sessions, followed by two days of airport-airline meetings."

CLEguy wrote:

CLE will host it per the ACI-N. America website: http://aci-na.org/event/2018-jumpstart- ... conference

"ACI-NA’s JumpStart® Air Service Development Conference is North America’s premier air service development conference. The 2018 JumpStart Conference will take place in Cleveland, OH from June 4-6, 2018 at the Renaissance Cleveland. The event will begin with a full day of educational sessions, followed by two days of airport-airline meetings."

You're right - it's a done deal and a nice occasion for the city to show itself off next June. The list of attending airlines for the 2017 version, however, is a little disappointing - essentially all the domestics, plus Canadian and Mexican airlines, and Copa. Nothing Asian or European.

[quote="lakeeffect"]F9 is dropping CLE-CLT on August 12. I thought this route had a decent chance of survival but AA was often price matching below F9 fares. Even UA and DL were offering sub $60 CLE-connection-CLT fares.

Not so sure of this cancellation. F9's schedule window was only thru 8/12. Their website yesterday was advertising service from CLE-CLT into early November with significantly discounted fares.

Frontier 14

CLE released April traffic numbers in an abbreviated news release. 739,563 pax up 8.49% over April, 2016. Year to date 2,649,970 pax, up 2.87% over last year. Easter moving from late-March to mid-April this year probably perturbed monthly comparisons, but the YTD looks to be in keeping with earlier averages.

http://www.clevelandairport.com/cle-continues-grow

masseybrown wrote:

CLE released April traffic numbers in an abbreviated news release. 739,563 pax up 8.49% over April, 2016. Year to date 2,649,970 pax, up 2.87% over last year. Easter moving from late-March to mid-April this year probably perturbed monthly comparisons, but the YTD looks to be in keeping with earlier averages.

http://www.clevelandairport.com/cle-continues-grow

Those are respectable spring passenger increases. May saw close to a 20% increase in capacity for F9 at CLE so I'd expect the pax growth to continue. June also saw the consolidation of WN at CLE so the growth should continue through summer.

DoT's March numbers are out. Interesting times for CLE's low cost carriers.

G4 28,482 pax 75.3% LF
F9 58,273 pax 79.1% LF
B6 22,498 pax 86.3% LF
NK 61,816 pax 90.55% LF

Is this the first month that Spirit has done better than Frontier? Spirit operated 223 flights vs Frontier's 168. All those F9 A321's make the totals close. JetBlue's traffic was up about 25% with just one additional E190 to BOS in the schedule; they carried June type numbers three months early. Allegiant ramping up nicely.

masseybrown wrote:

DoT's March numbers are out. Interesting times for CLE's low cost carriers.

G4 28,482 pax 75.3% LF
F9 58,273 pax 79.1% LF
B6 22,498 pax 86.3% LF
NK 61,816 pax 90.55% LF

Is this the first month that Spirit has done better than Frontier? Spirit operated 223 flights vs Frontier's 168. All those F9 A321's make the totals close. JetBlue's traffic was up about 25% with just one additional E190 to BOS in the schedule; they carried June type numbers three months early. Allegiant ramping up nicely.

The Allegiant and Frontier LF might be off some. I see an inbound of 83.4 and outbound of 88.7 for Frontier from CLE in March on the DOT website. For Allegiant I see inbound 79 and outbound 85.8 for March at CLE. Regardless not a bad first full month for Allegiant at CLE. They're already carrying more pax than B6.

Here's another interesting statistic.

March 2013 saw 753,456 domestic pax at CLE during the UA hub with 13,387 flights. March 2017 saw 732,283 domestic pax at CLE with 9,498 flights.

It's obvious the effect of replacing 50 seaters with high density A321 and A320 at CLE. Total pax is only down 2.8% from the hub days, but number of flights is down 29.1%.